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On the fence.

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On the fence. - 1/9/2015 3:07:50 PM   
David Hansen


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I've played a lot of war games over the years, and I have a pretty good idea what I like/dislike.

From what I've been reading about this game/simulation has a lot of moving pieces to take into account. That I like...I'm a micro-manager at heart... so a complex strategy layer that involves thought/planning is certainly up my alley.

That being said...micro-managing/giving orders to hundreds of individual units...rummaging through large stacks of units, etc. is not something I enjoy. Hence I stayed away from WITE.

I also stayed a way from WITP because (to me) it seemed to almost a total dedication was required.

I don't mind spending the time to learn the game, but I don't want the experience of having to handle 100's of units...I would rather spend say spending 50% of my time in the strategy/big picture perspective/planning and then the rest on the execution/tactics.

Given the above...any thoughts or insights would be appreciated.

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RE: On the fence. - 1/9/2015 3:35:41 PM   

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In this game the learning curve is brutally steep, but once you get into game mechanics, you will play it for quite a long time.
Obviously I could say the same of WITP.

(in reply to David Hansen)
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RE: On the fence. - 1/9/2015 3:36:04 PM   

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This game probably has less units to push around than WITP and WITE, given the scale. That being said there are also some more complexities to the game, especially in the logistics department, which require more thought than WITP/WITE. The air campaign is also more complex than WITP/WITE. Overall, based on what I've played and seen in AAR's, the game seems to move much quicker than WITE/WITP. Full campaigns seem like they can be easily completed in a few months, and not years. I think this game is in many ways the most manageable, especially since there have been many improvements in the UI and other concepts that eliminate a lot of unnecessary micro seen in WITE/WITP. That's not to say the game isn't incredibly detailed or complex because it certainly is. I just think it's the most refined and I think based on what you're looking for that it is right up your alley. I would definitely check out some of the AAR's and also the Slitherine Youtube one hour let's play of the game to get a better taste.


Paradox Interactive Forum Refugee

(in reply to David Hansen)
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RE: On the fence. - 1/9/2015 3:48:21 PM   

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"I would rather spend say spending 50% of my time in the strategy/big picture perspective/planning and then the rest on the execution/tactics."

strategy/big picture perspective/planning will probably take over 50%. Especially for Allies!

The first turn or two of each scenario may take longer to execute if you decide to "restructure" whichever side you play.

< Message edited by KWG -- 1/9/2015 4:57:26 PM >

(in reply to Bamilus)
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RE: On the fence. - 1/9/2015 5:40:21 PM   
Dante Fierro

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I am really happy with the purchase. But I do think you need to have a penchant for micro-managing, and wargame depth. WitW is not a light wargame, it just isn't. On the other hand, the level of detail and simulation is about the best I've ever seen. You also get something here that you don't get with a regular non-computerized wargame (which I own a few) - the added simulation and number crunching the computer can deliver, and the FOW, which brings even more simulation to conflict.

So yeah, you're not going to be able to avoid the complexity and depth here. The manual is 300 pages. The level of detail is very fine. There are smaller scenarios, so you don't have to do the whole enchilada and you probably won't be able to when first attempting the system (unless you're some kind of grognard Heisenberg). But WitW is not only a computerized wargame in depth, but I also have found the interface is elegantly put together - using all the newest features in computer games (IMO) - it's modern. And the designers/programmers appear to have put in a lot of work for you to examine the information you need in a accessible way. But still, there is a lot to consider! However, you can take as much time as you want. If you like the learning process involved with learning wargame systems, then you will enjoy this game. You also can learn with the computer AI, which can be adjusted for difficulty level.


(in reply to KWG)
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RE: On the fence. - 1/9/2015 6:37:04 PM   

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WITE is a great game, but when you start the campaign and you look at all those masses of units it can get a bit daunting. WITW in that regard is much easier. When you start the campaign you have a limited number of units and it's pretty easy to get a mental picture of what is where. Also the units you get as reinforcements trickle in so you feel like you know all the time what is what and where. For me at least this is important as I'm a bit of a control freak and feel like I must know everything all the time. I haven't gotten very far yet in the campaign, but unlike in WITE I know I will finish this one.

(in reply to Dante Fierro)
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RE: On the fence. - 1/9/2015 7:55:12 PM   


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I couldn't quite get into WitE because there were do many units to move - and next turn you have to move them all again! (at least in WitP you give orders and they keep moving until they get wherever you told them to go)

However I haven't found that a problem in WitW. For a start there are less units and also, most scenarios start with fewer units (aka the landings) and build up gradually from there, so you're not in at the deep end.

There are loads of details to think about, and you can spend hours pouring over the commanders report if you want to, but it's not a case of having to move hundreds of units every turn.

(in reply to Kumppi)
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RE: On the fence. - 1/9/2015 10:16:19 PM   

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I purchased the game last week and am still on the fence about it being a "great" game.

To my very humble opinion, you dont get the feel of WW2 NW Europe from it all of the time, sometimes its "feels" right and then it lets you down.

Some of this is inexperience, but its a very long journey to understand a 300+ page rule book, another 50? page player guide and then put it all into action. (nb I have been playing "monster games", board & PC, for 35+ years)

I feel weekly turn is too long for this theatre, might work in the East but especially on Invasion turns I believe its not "fine enough. maybe 2-3 day turns would be better if you dont go to daily. I think this is also true for the air war.

The AI is OK, but in HUSKY seems to have perfected the SIR ROBIN defence, flee east and leave Palermo & Marsala to fight to the last man. In 4 scenario I have only had to attack a Wermacht stack once. When playing Axis I held the Etna line (lost Palermo) and got an Allied Minor Victory!
When I played as Axis in the Italy campaign I held Sicily until mid Sept then voluntarily evacuated to Reggio. The AI then blitzed Sardinia & Corsica. The first landing on Italy was mid Dec 43 when 10 Divisions landed between Civitaveccia & Anzio in L2 rain and on the second turn had spread 80$ across the peninsula. My defenders on in the Gustav Line area had a scramble up the East Coast to escape. 6 more turns passed before the AI closed the last rail link and started to move to occupy Naples.

I love the ability to attach Corps/Army units to a combat unit, saves dragging around hundreds of battalions. Historical units seem pretty accurate, as always you can argue about the values allocated for morale, experience etc. Stacking is unbalanced, either 3 Para Brigades or 3 US Heavy Armored Divs with another Div equiv in support fit the same space. Harking back to the Europa series I believe using a "Regimental Equivalent" would be better.

Hopefully things will get better when I discover more sections which will improve my game, but without any WITE background this has been a trip into an unknown system.


Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to Banquet)
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RE: On the fence. - 1/10/2015 6:53:10 AM   


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Coming from AE I find WitW interface an absolute joy. Managing the entire WA air force (some 8000 planes) only takes a couple of minutes once you gotten everything set up to your liking. Ground war is very easy to handle due to very few number of units (compared to AE and WITE).

(in reply to JeffroK)
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