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Towed array sonar...? - 1/6/2015 8:28:20 PM   
magi

 

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How is Towed sonar array sonar modeled in command……

Wiki quote
"Effective use of the towed array system requires a vessel to maintain a straight, level course over a data sampling interval. Maneuvering, or changing course, disturbs the array and interrupts the sampled data stream. These periods of instability are closely tested during sea trials and known by the crew's officers and enlisted sonar experts. Modern systems compensate by constantly self-measuring the relative positions of the array, element to element, reporting back data that can be automatically corrected for curvatures by computers as part of the beam forming math processing.

A ship must also limit its overall top speed when while a towed array is deployed. Hydrodynamic drag increases as a square function of velocity, and could tear the cable or damage its mooring hardware. The array could also be damaged by contact with the seafloor or if the vessel operates astern propulsion, or can even be damaged if it bends too tightly."

Is any of this modeled.....

< Message edited by magi -- 1/6/2015 9:43:02 PM >
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RE: Towed array sonar...? - 1/6/2015 8:35:55 PM   
magi

 

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I read the line item on sonar in mega facs… But it doesn't give really much information… Other than I realize now it is automatically deployed…
I think it would be a nice feature to be able to manually deploy retract towed sonar array.....

< Message edited by magi -- 1/6/2015 9:41:24 PM >

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RE: Towed array sonar...? - 1/6/2015 9:36:37 PM   
Dimitris


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quote:

ORIGINAL: magi
I think it would be a nice feature to be able to manually deploy retract towed sonar array.....


Why? What would be the gameplay benefit?

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RE: Towed array sonar...? - 1/6/2015 11:07:15 PM   
mhemh

 

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quote:

A ship must also limit its overall top speed when while a towed array is deployed.

I think it can be added.

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RE: Towed array sonar...? - 1/6/2015 11:17:18 PM   
Primarchx


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Sure, just have the towed array effective at or under a given speed. No need to clutter the game with deploy/retract commands for certain ships.

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RE: Towed array sonar...? - 1/6/2015 11:52:21 PM   
Hongjian

 

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Actually, how can I use Variable Depth Sonars in Command? How can I manually put them to use and adjust their depth? I felt that their range is too low to be useful in command, and I assummed that it was because they always stay in the shallow depths, along with the similiarily ranged bow-mounted sonars.

Sorry for hijacking this thread like this, but I couldnt find anything after searching the forums.

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RE: Towed array sonar...? - 1/7/2015 12:50:34 AM   
TonyAAA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

quote:

ORIGINAL: magi
I think it would be a nice feature to be able to manually deploy retract towed sonar array.....


Why? What would be the gameplay benefit?


Nothing, until Command models going to high/flank speed as destructive to a deployed towed array.

Since you can accelerate much faster than you can safely retract a cable several KM long, players might want the choice of being forced to wait (say, after detecting a torpedo) while the cable retracts before they run, or immediately go to flank speed and likely suffer array damage as a result.

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RE: Towed array sonar...? - 1/7/2015 2:36:26 AM   
magi

 

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Honestly I believe sunburn is correct… Manually deploying really wouldn't have much effect on anything… But modeling some of the more critical aspect of using towed array I think would be useful as being more realistic….
I bet they would just let it go if things got really bad… You wouldn't risk it ship and crew for sonar Array..... I wonder if they are retrievable….?

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RE: Towed array sonar...? - 1/7/2015 2:47:35 AM   
magi

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hongjian

Actually, how can I use Variable Depth Sonars in Command? How can I manually put them to use and adjust their depth? I felt that their range is too low to be useful in command, and I assummed that it was because they always stay in the shallow depths, along with the similiarily ranged bow-mounted sonars.

Sorry for hijacking this thread like this, but I couldnt find anything after searching the forums.


Hongjian...... You have not hijack this thread… My question was about the modeling of Towed array sonar in general… It is a very viable question and I was wondering about these issues myself… With the sub you can be above the layer or in the layer and with variable depth sonar monitor below the layer.... So I think it's reasonable to wonder how this is happening in command… or if it's modeled in at all…

< Message edited by magi -- 1/7/2015 3:48:54 AM >

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RE: Towed array sonar...? - 1/7/2015 12:46:26 PM   
Marder

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

... No need to clutter the game with deploy/retract commands for certain ships.


+1

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RE: Towed array sonar...? - 1/7/2015 4:07:23 PM   
deepdive

 

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TAS should only be deployed in ASW mission where you have to "tick a box" to employ TAS.

TAS would never be used if there is any reason for hard manouvering, by the ship or sub.

Bjørn

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RE: Towed array sonar...? - 1/7/2015 9:26:08 PM   
Hongjian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: magi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hongjian

Actually, how can I use Variable Depth Sonars in Command? How can I manually put them to use and adjust their depth? I felt that their range is too low to be useful in command, and I assummed that it was because they always stay in the shallow depths, along with the similiarily ranged bow-mounted sonars.

Sorry for hijacking this thread like this, but I couldnt find anything after searching the forums.


Hongjian...... You have not hijack this thread… My question was about the modeling of Towed array sonar in general… It is a very viable question and I was wondering about these issues myself… With the sub you can be above the layer or in the layer and with variable depth sonar monitor below the layer.... So I think it's reasonable to wonder how this is happening in command… or if it's modeled in at all…


So, as the things are now; a newer ship having VDS is basically a downgrade compared to an older one with TASS?

I think the VDS mechanic really has to be modeled in the game.

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RE: Towed array sonar...? - 1/8/2015 6:20:00 AM   
Dimitris


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hongjian
Actually, how can I use Variable Depth Sonars in Command? How can I manually put them to use and adjust their depth? I felt that their range is too low to be useful in command, and I assummed that it was because they always stay in the shallow depths, along with the similiarily ranged bow-mounted sonars.

Sorry for hijacking this thread like this, but I couldnt find anything after searching the forums.


As we explain in the manual, shipborne VDS and towed array sonars as modelled as always residing just under the layer, on the "deep sound channel" area. This reduces their effectiveness against over-layer subs but maximizes their effects against targets under the layer.

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RE: Towed array sonar...? - 1/8/2015 8:01:44 AM   
Dimitris


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hongjian
Actually, how can I use Variable Depth Sonars in Command? How can I manually put them to use and adjust their depth?

If you are using them from a ship, they always hang just under the thermal layer. If you are using them from a submarine, their position relative to the layer depends on the depth of the submarine. See also the relevant section ont he manual.

quote:


I felt that their range is too low to be useful in command, and I assummed that it was because they always stay in the shallow depths, along with the similiarily ranged bow-mounted sonars.

A faulty assumption.


< Message edited by Sunburn -- 1/8/2015 9:17:48 AM >


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RE: Towed array sonar...? - 1/8/2015 8:02:54 AM   
Dimitris


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quote:

ORIGINAL: magi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hongjian

Actually, how can I use Variable Depth Sonars in Command? How can I manually put them to use and adjust their depth? I felt that their range is too low to be useful in command, and I assummed that it was because they always stay in the shallow depths, along with the similiarily ranged bow-mounted sonars.

Sorry for hijacking this thread like this, but I couldnt find anything after searching the forums.


Hongjian...... You have not hijack this thread… My question was about the modeling of Towed array sonar in general… It is a very viable question and I was wondering about these issues myself… With the sub you can be above the layer or in the layer and with variable depth sonar monitor below the layer.... So I think it's reasonable to wonder how this is happening in command… or if it's modeled in at all…


Did you read the manual?


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RE: Towed array sonar...? - 1/8/2015 8:22:16 AM   
Dimitris


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hongjian
So, as the things are now; a newer ship having VDS is basically a downgrade compared to an older one with TASS?

No. Different system types, different sensitivities per system etc.

quote:


I think the VDS mechanic really has to be modeled in the game.

What "VDS mechanic"? The primary point of having a VDS is to put an active-capable sonar dome under the layer. We model that already. See the manual.


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RE: Towed array sonar...? - 1/8/2015 11:56:56 AM   
Hongjian

 

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Thank you, this is all I wanted to know.

I guess I have overread that part in the manual.

Also, is the range of 8 nautical miles correct? Because I thought that a sonar that is beneath the layer would have longer passive detection range... Thank you.

< Message edited by Hongjian -- 1/8/2015 12:58:58 PM >

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RE: Towed array sonar...? - 1/8/2015 2:38:10 PM   
thewood1

 

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So, I am going ask a question to certain types of people on this forum...why so aggressive in your questioning of the game and the developers?

Instead of a nice passive..."Hey I was wondering where I can find information on "real-life function" XYZ and how its accounted for or abstracted in the game."

As comparison, we get..."So, as the things are now; a newer ship having VDS is basically a downgrade compared to an older one with TASS? I think the VDS mechanic really has to be modeled in the game." A pretty provocative way of basically asking the same type of question.

I mean these devs have shown incredible patience in answer both useful and obtuse questions. They built an incredibly detailed game/simulation from scratch. They have been more responsive in fixing issues and releasing rapid fixes than any game developer I can think of.

Some advice on the process to follow...do a search in the manual on the topic...search the forum...don't assume other players are official sources of info...and then just ask the question without an attitude that you are trying to show up the devs. I think that process would make everyone's life a little easier.

This game is not for everyone. It is complicated, built by people who know what they are doing, played by a lot of people with real-life experience, and is VERY hard to master. That search function is great tool for not wasting development time.

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RE: Towed array sonar...? - 1/8/2015 3:20:18 PM   
Primarchx


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Spot on, wood.

We all come from different backgrounds and experience. Command provides very high systems systems fidelity, but it's not perfect nor should we expect it to be so. There are necessary trade offs, implemented for many valid reasons. One of our jobs as players is to relate our experiences and observations to the devs in a constructive way and moderate our expectations based on the fact that Command is indeed a game.

My experience, and I've been involved in one way or another here for a couple of years now, is that the devs do hear and act on our feedback. This game has changed in huge ways since V1.0 was released, with frequent updates and amazing response to player requests. Unlike nearly any other game I've played in recent times, the developer support for Command is as strong today as it was the day it was released, and that's a very special thing.

My advise would be to keep bringing your observations, experience and suggestions to the fore. But do so in a respectful and collaborative way.


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RE: Towed array sonar...? - 1/8/2015 7:11:37 PM   
Hongjian

 

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I didnt meant to be provocative with my question, so I apologize if it sounded like it was.

On the other hand, it is not that we are 'playing' a freeware game (far from that, considering the price). I bought this software the moment it came out and supported it ever since by getting others to buy it as well.
If a simple question about gameplay mechanics, no matter how ignorant on my part, cant be received without being deemed provocative in some way, then I am very sorry again. Sorry in more than one way.

I'm out.



< Message edited by Hongjian -- 1/8/2015 8:12:16 PM >

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RE: Towed array sonar...? - 1/8/2015 7:32:27 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hongjian

I didnt meant to be provocative with my question, so I apologize if it sounded like it was.

On the other hand, it is not that we are 'playing' a freeware game (far from that, considering the price). I bought this software the moment it came out and supported it ever since by getting others to buy it as well.
If a simple question about gameplay mechanics, no matter how ignorant on my part, cant be received without being deemed provocative in some way, then I am very sorry again. Sorry in more than one way.

I'm out.




Devs haven't said a negative word to you. This is other players..aka other paying customers who have been speaking to you. If you want to interact its kind of best to determine the overall tone of the forum and work within its bounds

Thanks

Mike



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RE: Towed array sonar...? - 6/22/2015 10:24:12 PM   
Halsey1945

 

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I know that generally the towed sonar arrays are towed under the layer. However, is there a way for the towed array to be brought just above the layer in Command? If the sub is just underneath the layer. I know for a fact that this can be done in real life; since, my former NJROTC SNSI was a submariner and even commanded a 688-class before retiring. He explained how sometimes you want to get just under a strong layer, and run the array above it. Thus, masking yourself from a ship, while still keeping an eye on her, and letting the hull's sensors benefit from the deep sound channel.

BTW. It's apparently highly effective with our subs because they run so quiet. With the biggest threat being active sonar, but if it's a strong enough layer the ship's hull sonar may not get through.

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RE: Towed array sonar...? - 6/22/2015 10:59:36 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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Take a look at section 8.7 of your manual. We've written a bit on this.

Mike

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RE: Towed array sonar...? - 6/23/2015 9:11:36 PM   
magi

 

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Gezzz.... I just read the rest of this thread… I'm starteled at some of the response… I didn't realize people were offended by some of the posts.... I personally never intended to be negatively critical and I'm surprised that it might've been taken in such a manner…
Some of my posts may have shown some ignorance.... However there was never any Mal intentdea involved on my part… I like many others here I have expressed my gratitude and appreciation of the work you people done.. many times.... You have even quoted me in an expression of my appreciation of CMANO...
I have to wonder if some people are just being a little oversensitive… However… I would like to say that if I have ever offended anyone here.. I am deeply sorry…

< Message edited by magi -- 6/23/2015 10:13:51 PM >

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RE: Towed array sonar...? - 6/23/2015 10:13:21 PM   
thewood1

 

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I always say this to my sons...don't worry about what one guy says, but worry about what multiple guys say.

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RE: Towed array sonar...? - 8/16/2015 8:12:37 PM   
Cheechako

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Take a look at section 8.7 of your manual. We've written a bit on this.

Mike


Sorry to thread resurrect this again, but has there been any consideration for ships that only have towed arrays and no hull mounted options like the ASW LCS? With two towed arrays, I'd imagine that they would adjust depth of both arrays to compensate for the lack of a hull sonar and not always have them running just under the layer.

< Message edited by Cheechako -- 8/16/2015 9:13:39 PM >

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RE: Towed array sonar...? - 8/17/2015 12:51:06 AM   
mikmykWS

 

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LCS is supposed to get a VDS to compliment the Towed Array although doesn't look like the Navy had selected one yet. If anybody has an information on this please let us know. In the meantime just add one in the sensors dialog.

Thanks!

Mike

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RE: Towed array sonar...? - 8/17/2015 11:23:50 AM   
SeaQueen


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According to this:

http://news.usni.org/2013/08/21/lcs-mission-packages-the-basics

It's suppposed to be a Thales 2087 active/passive VDS. They'll probably use some license built version. It's also supposed to get MFTA according to this:

http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=2100&tid=412&ct=2



quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

LCS is supposed to get a VDS to compliment the Towed Array although doesn't look like the Navy had selected one yet. If anybody has an information on this please let us know. In the meantime just add one in the sensors dialog.

Thanks!

Mike

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RE: Towed array sonar...? - 8/19/2015 6:41:02 PM   
Cheechako

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

LCS is supposed to get a VDS to compliment the Towed Array although doesn't look like the Navy had selected one yet. If anybody has an information on this please let us know. In the meantime just add one in the sensors dialog.

Thanks!

Mike


I added the 2087 along with the MFTA, but it seems like I'm not detecting anything above the layer. Are both towed devices still running under the layer? Thanks!

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RE: Towed array sonar...? - 8/19/2015 6:58:40 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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Could you please post a save game.

Thanks!

Mike

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