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Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 12/28/2014 9:45:12 AM   
Smirfy

 

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I am enjoying the Airpower feature of the game more as a sandbox at the minute than anything I can really understand . But Im really at a total loss with regards Interdiction on land and railway and railyard bombing. Should there not simply have been a "Transport Plan" box and it incapacitates commerce through that area by whatever degree dependant on factor like attack strength and weather? Im working on stopping the teleporting AI or aleast trying to give it a limp but inderdiction seems rather useless or to be more correct non existant
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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 12/28/2014 11:40:19 AM   
HMSWarspite

 

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You have switched on the option to view interdiction? The little green circles with numbers in are the interdiction level in a hex (there can also be blue ones for Axis, on the sea). The effect can vary from nothing (no cicle at all) to 0-9 (I think). I dont know about the AI cheat moves, but I have seen a Panzer div move through a few 9's and lose strength like no man's business...

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 12/28/2014 12:15:42 PM   
Smirfy

 

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Yes and am interdicting at the max, waste of time. I think just give it box like everything else.

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 12/28/2014 12:32:11 PM   
MechFO

 

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Try playing as Axis.

At the moment the battle of Normandy is impossible because the troops could never reach the area without being destroyed.

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 12/28/2014 1:50:46 PM   
Smirfy

 

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As the Allies in Italy it does nothing to the Axis

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 12/28/2014 2:19:37 PM   
Smirfy

 

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For example I have been playing Italy again and putting extreme pressure on the Gustav line without getting into a verdun (because allied artillery is useless) Ie fiegning to attack and the AI shifts units usually his best to match you. The Gustav ;line consists of all his grade 1 divisions. I launch Shingle which goes beyond my wildest expectations and take Rome in 2 turns with my landing forces. The Axis still man the Gustav line with all their good dvisions. The next turn the forces manning the Gustav Line teleport (despite my airforce) into a perfect line North of Rome from the Med to the Adriactic. Belief is just suspended. I know the AI needs help but this stuff is nonsense its not even an incremental retreat its just beam us up. ZOC, Rail lines damage airforces interdiction etc all count for nowt!

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 12/28/2014 2:27:50 PM   
Kumppi


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AI is impacted by the interdiction values during normal movement, but not at the end of the turn movement when it tries to even out the front line. I guess this is also when most of the teleportation issues happen that is units escaping encirclements.

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 12/28/2014 2:49:45 PM   
Smirfy

 

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Its hilairious one German division actually was left behind at the Gustav line and is nearly home safe though cut off and not motorized it is outrunning my ground units :D

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 12/28/2014 2:52:15 PM   
joey


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I, too, have seen little to no value in interdiction of land units. I have seen it make a difference in naval areas, but land units seem to be immune to any impact from interdiction.
Italy is a prime example. The Wehrmacht simply reforms itself north of any invasion the allies can do.
I have not tried an invasion in Tuscany, but in ever instance of an invasion south of there, the Wehrmacht simply moved its entire army north to create a line across the entire peninsula. This occurs independent of the amount of interdiction.
I was wondering how this was happening. Thanks, for your insight, Kumppi.

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 12/28/2014 3:23:07 PM   
Nico165b165


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Interdiction certainly has some value.

Try this, play breakout and pursuit :

1) With ground attack AD's (the default AD's at the start are already good)
2) Without thoses ground attack

In the second case, you'll find a lot of your attacks will fail because some reserve german units will come to the rescue and tip the balance enough to avoid losing the hex. It may be enough for you to lose several weeks.

In the first case, odds are you won't see any reinforcement coming to the rescue, leading to an early breakout in 1 or 2 turns.

So the tactical value of interdiction certainly exists. But maybe some tweaking is needed on the strategical side.



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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 12/28/2014 3:46:38 PM   
Smirfy

 

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I cant see any value, Had to use about 10 divisions to finally stop my wandering cut off German division. Cut off for 5 weeks now, is that some kind of record? Attack with 90,000 men and plenty of tanks backed by pee shooters (as the Tommies and GI call Allied artillery) and the Air Farce as they call their brothers in the sky. Guess what happened my attack is repelled,? So in My game I have teleporting units to whom nothing I do applies and a Death Star behind my lines.

Fix list

1/ AI teleports
2/ Fix interdiction and other things that actually should effect the game
3/ Death Star wandering pockets
4/ Give the Allies artillery units and make the Attachments ammo
5/ Try to do something with the naval move picking up units you dont want to
6/ Scale the RAF and Luftwaffe to Wings and Gruppen
7/ More Air Headquarters prefarably Group so as you can forget about certain things like naval patrol
8/ Give Polish units a new colour something Red and White would be nice





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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 12/28/2014 3:58:29 PM   
Baelfiin


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post some screenshots so I can see what you see

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 12/28/2014 3:58:38 PM   
HMSWarspite

 

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What is your issue with Allied artillery? you have mentioned it in 3 threads now. Either be specific about your issue, or stop dangling it until someone bites. Yes, the units summary indicates that the Axis have more tubes, but it also indicates they have more men...

What is it you think is happening that shouldn't, or isn't that should with respect to artillery?

Oh, and comparing W Allies with Soviets on use of artillery formations is spurious, they had completely different capabilities and philosophies...

< Message edited by HMSWarspite -- 12/28/2014 5:07:59 PM >


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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 12/28/2014 4:06:10 PM   
HMSWarspite

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy


I cant see any value, Had to use about 10 divisions to finally stop my wandering cut off German division. Cut off for 5 weeks now, is that some kind of record? Attack with 90,000 men and plenty of tanks backed by pee shooters (as the Tommies and GI call Allied artillery) and the Air Farce as they call their brothers in the sky. Guess what happened my attack is repelled,? So in My game I have teleporting units to whom nothing I do applies and a Death Star behind my lines.

Fix list
...

5/ Try to do something with the naval move picking up units you dont want to

What? I think you need to explain.
quote:


6/ Scale the RAF and Luftwaffe to Wings and Gruppen

Why?
quote:


7/ More Air Headquarters prefarably Group so as you can forget about certain things like naval patrol

How is Naval Patrol linked to the number of HQ? I presume you mean RAF Group not US Group? But all the same, you need to explain your point.
quote:


8/ Give Polish units a new colour something Red and White would be nice


Really? This is your number 8 on the improvement lists? But BC being a 100% Lancaster force by summer 1943 isn't?

Am I the only one who does not get what Smirfy is on about?







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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 12/28/2014 4:37:01 PM   
Red Lancer


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1. If you see it happening post a pre-save and we'll fix.
2. I think your problem lies with the AI's necessary flex. Try playing as Axis and you'll see it works.
3. Not sure what you mean.
4. I agree with HMSWarspite - Allied Artillery has coded bonuses over the Axis. What is the problem?
5. Fixed and waiting for next patch release.
6. LW have Gruppe already. RAF Wings will not happen with mixed aircraft types. It is already possible if the 'community' is happy with homogeneous Wings.
7. You can have ten more unless Helpless re-jigs the GUI (and I have asked). If you are playing the 43 GC with AI only I can add a couple of Groups (201 & 242) to help you out.
8. Morvael chose the Yellow as it was the colour used in Polish Wargames - I'll do a mod of the 'set' I use (different fort and AA symbols) just for you.

Finally have you considered joining the darkside of testing? If you feel this strongly you are better in the tent....

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 12/28/2014 6:15:06 PM   
Smirfy

 

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1/ Its happening and not for the first time its every game!In Small scenarios its the Messina and Brindisi teleport in Italy its the Gustav line getting beamed up the leg.
2/ Then there is no AI and no feature set. I have not got round to playing the Axis and I doubt I will
3/ Pockets of German units isolated can wander round the map and cant be destroyed even with massive ahistorical combinations put against them. Surviving for five weeks in the west on the move holding off 90,000 troops is plain dumb. Sure Like I said before in a port or City with a load of supply I dont have a problem.
4/ The problem is it cant shift anything so its pretty dull and apart from petrol the biggest single drag on Allied advances was not enough artillery ammunition. This is singulary not reflected in game. One does not expect to shift 1st grade German formations well dug in easily but my combat results have been "whats the point" against third rate troops
7/ Great, air apart from the invaision mechanics is this games strong suit it needs somemore refinement but mechanics wise its heading the right direction
8/ Did you ask him what colour the Italians were in Polish wargames

I have got a nine you will be glad to know, or 9 if you like units that are forced to retreat dont suffer enough attrition of fatigue, morale, equipment, desertion etc etc etc. I would take a look at that. I have not played a scenario with a single Lancaster in it so nope it did not make the list till now but Im delighted we have a round 10 to be going on with.

I would consider testing if you think you can suffer me :D My standpoint with computer games is they should have a good interface (WiE&W are pretty good in that regards) The AI needs protecting but it needs to be done believably that means "The player" has to operate in gravity and World War II has some good gravity like logistics, distance,command control and I think in WitE&W "the player" gets too much licence which then leads to the AI having to cheat too obviously. As far as units go in games of this scale and size its important to balance ease of play against micromanagement so I always come down on the ease of play side against having squadrons because two marks of Spitfires had a speed differental of 5 mph. And I dont believe sealion was ever seriously considered. Thats basically my philosopy when it comes to testing


< Message edited by Smirfy -- 12/28/2014 7:16:19 PM >

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 12/28/2014 7:31:27 PM   
Red Lancer


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Firstly so we start on the right note the new counters are attached to this post. Unzip to the Art/Units directory but backup the counters files.

1. I'm not arguing that it may be happening but we need pre-saves so that we can repeat what you see. The AI walks a thin line but out and out cheating is a no no.
2. Please play Breakout and Pursuit - the system does work.
3. I understand your frustration but you do need to isolate and destroy these units - ignoring them is not an option.
4. Is this Arty related or a wider reflection on the combat engine? Italy is really tough due to the terrain.
7. A modder could easily reverse engineer to Wings. I doubt el hefe and I have the time or inclination to do so. I don't think the sticking point was aircraft marks rather Types - 244 Wing had both Tomahawks and Spitfires.

Your '9' makes me smile - a thousand WitE posts that retreat losses were too much and the combat engine was broken.

With regard to Sealion I tend to agree but the Axis fanboys do like to dream - the best option is to allow it to be launched and have the game balanced to make it lunacy against all but the most incompetent player.

Attachment (1)

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 12/28/2014 7:40:20 PM   
carlkay58

 

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AI balancing is one of the most difficult tasks in any game. The more sophisticated and complex the game, the worse the task gets. You will find that there will be many AI improvements in each of the updates that will be released.

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 12/28/2014 7:55:56 PM   
wokelly

 

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Is it worth rail bombing if you want to cut off supply, or should I just use interdiction. I'm trying to cut off supplies to German forces at the toe and heel of the Italian boot before I invade. I'm trying to cut their CV by starving them of some supply.

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 12/28/2014 11:34:31 PM   
carlkay58

 

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Rail bombing works well in cutting the amount of supply freight that can be shipped up. Interdiction will only stop the trucks from the railhead going into the front lines. Interdiction is also a lost cause and impossible to do in the Italian terrain but very nice in France.

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 12/29/2014 6:31:05 PM   
Smirfy

 

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Really in my games it does zip and is a redundant in a game against the computer. Apart from Naval Interdiction and pretend the Allies don't have Ultra "recon" I can't see it does much.

@Red Lancer. I do believe the combat system does have problems. The support unit system and reserve, refit modes are excellent at representing the German art of war with flexibility of formation, rapid counter attacks and multitude of equipment but is hopeless at recreating the Allied method of War.

Simply put the the allies had 700 guns at the end of a phone, they rocked up where they wanted and let loose sometimes it worked sometime it failed but that's the way they did it and any forward FO could do it. If the Allies won they moved forward until they were at the limit of gun range and did it again. They repeated this until the Axis were attrited and broke or the Axis had the sense or political will to fall back to prepared positions. What WItE&W falls down in it does not grade how hard you want to defend a hex hold, fall back or defend at all costs. You have zero sum warfare. A unit that involuntarily retreats and I don't care what 1000 posters say should suffer as it did historically otherwise it's gaming without consequence. "I decided to defend I was beaten I should not have losses" that's childish




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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 12/29/2014 7:06:02 PM   
Red Lancer


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It is very difficult to have a rationale argument when all you do is rubbish the system and choose not to see the other side. You have also not posted any saves so that those of us who have years of experience with the game can see if the problem is game or player related. If you have only played as the Allies in Italy then that is not a sound position for your assertions.

I well understand the power of artillery having been on the receiving end both in training and real life. Most casualties from artillery occur in the first 10 seconds of a bombardment and its effectiveness against strong fortifications is limited unless you are employing larger diameter tubes (The Somme (although WW1) springs to mind in proving that reality). Remember that the game is 10 mile hexes and week long turns. Fire Support does not take or hold ground - that needs Armour and Infantry. The bombing at the start of Op Goodwood shattered the Axis but they recovered in a few hours and prevented a decisive breakthrough.

The Allies better ability to co-ordinate artillery is coded with them being able to employ more SUs in an attack than the Axis. If you follow a combat through you will notice that in general air and then arty engage before more traditional ground combat. High level of interdiction can be decisive at this early stage.

I apologise for being a little short but simply telling us again and again that it's all wrong with no hard evidence is not helping us to address your concerns.



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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 12/29/2014 8:31:04 PM   
HMSWarspite

 

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And, Smirfy, your description of German and Allied ground combat methods is so unrecognisable that it might as well be a description of the battles in Star Wars. I very strongly suggest you read a few operational accounts (or divisional histories) of the Western Front 1943-45.

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 12/29/2014 9:45:21 PM   
Joel Billings


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I think John has covered things well, but I'll just add that in our internal version we put into test last week, the AI has been changed so that units that would have to move through an enemy ZOC to get back to the main line will not do any warping. This means units in nearly closed pockets won't be warping out. This should improve things, but as stated many times, we could really use pre-saves for situations where the AI is clearly cheating. If we have the saves, we'll try to improve the routines. You can attach them to a forum post or email them to 2by3@2by3games.com.

As for the Polish color, my understanding is that the color is orange, not yellow. On my monitor I don't find them at all alike, but I realize monitors are different. Sounds like John has provided a solution to this issue with his modified counter set (thanks John).

As for the units wondering around in enemy territory, I'd really be interested in seeing a series of saves over perhaps 3 turns so I can see what's going on. I'm surprised they are able to move very far. I do agree that lack of a supply source with freight should have a bigger impact than it does now. My suspicion is that the basic supply need of the unit not being met over a few turns is not having the impact it should.

Getting high interdiction levels in Italy can be difficult, but as has been stated, interdiction, as practiced by the 2nd and 9th Tac airforces in Northern France, is absolutely crushing in its ability to help the Allies breakout. I think at times in Italy it can be used in localized situations in the same way as it helps the Allies break out of the hedgerows.

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 12/29/2014 10:16:32 PM   
marion61

 

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If it was running from depot to depot, it could potentially get away. If all the hexes around it were WA control, then yes that would probably be a bug. Did it have a path to any functional ports? Did you notice if it was receiving air supply? Interdiction is way more important than you think, and you have to use your air force in Italy to break up those tough areas, or invade and go around. Try a turn and use no interdiction and watch all the reserve activations you get. With interdiction, railway, strategic bombing of ports and rail yards, the axis supply problem will become critical. And the warping you may see of the units northward, from what I've seen, is a line that was already formed by fort units. Just don't waste a lot of VP's in Italy trying to take cities. By '44, you start getting a lot less (divided by a greater number), and the casualties you take trying to get a city probably will be offset by loss vp's. I'm no expert, but the air war can be hard to master. I learn something new I can try almost every day.

< Message edited by meklore61 -- 12/29/2014 11:18:31 PM >

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 12/29/2014 10:35:39 PM   
Banquet

 

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This topic has raised another newbie question from me... How do I tell the interdiction level in a land hex?

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 12/29/2014 10:52:45 PM   
marion61

 

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The interdiction button on the top menu shows naval and land interdiction values. Green circles, white numbers.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by meklore61 -- 12/29/2014 11:56:42 PM >

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 12/29/2014 11:03:18 PM   
Banquet

 

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Thamks, meklore61 - I only noticed the sea hexes before. How come there are only stats for cities?

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 12/29/2014 11:10:05 PM   
Smirfy

 

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@ Red Lancer

First off I apologize in advance I am not trying to insult you or anyone else from the team and one can see *alot* of effort has gone into developing the game, this is fully undertood. If I had the time I would write in the most polite terms what exactly I feel is wrong but that would take *time*. I am trying to get to the crux of what is wrong quickly so it either can be fixed or obviated so if I come across a bit short it is a reflection on me not you. It is purely for expediant reasons.

Lets get the customer/provider deal out of the way first, Ive purchased a game I am not a tester. I'll let the player related comment slide, you know there is teleporting and wandering pockets, Secondly Ive only played Husky and the full length Italian scenario but quite a few times now, are you saying its not worth playing because its broke and I should play another scenario? Lets test that assertion to destruction. Is the Italian part of the whole game broken you know the teleporting, the invincible pockets? Or do pockets operate differently in France, did the Axis made a big mistake at Falaise? Should they just have wandered home, if 20,00 can hold off 90,000 for 6 weeks now in the countryside isolated imagine what 200,000 can do behind your lines. Or will the Falaise pocket teleport? How long did the Faliase pocket last and they wernt "in game" isolated, 10 days? A turn? Would you call the German retreat from Faliase a rout?

Until I build my new machine the Italian campaign suits the time I can throw at the game. I dont really want to do half an hour turns and have the investment ruined by an AI teleport. So its the Allies and its the Italian campaign for the moment. I used to test computer games I remember being told when I reported a certain "side" was broken "FFS just play another side if its bust" the "side" was never fixed and the game remains broken.


The British learnt that it was better to suppress than kill and destroy with artillery,if it killed or miamed it was a bonus.The artillery was used to get the infantry and associated forces into the defences to destroy them and prevent enemy artillery and mortars interfering with them. It has to be noted that not all troops the Allied faced were FG, SS and PG, I believe "in Game" units have ratings like morale. You know in battle more people are taken prisoner than actually are killed. Then there is experience, I have seen that listed in game as a factor then there is fatigue and when we look at leaders we have ratings like iniative, morale (again) Political (does that mean a German general with a high political rating is less likely to surrender than one without?) there is even admin. Thats a lot of modifiers. But in my experience the only three things that count descending order are Fort level, Fort level and Fort level. That is hardly imaginative and as I said before the Allies broke the Gustav Line and the Gothic Line they also got bloody noses but I dont think they ever said whats the point?

@Warspite

11th Armoured division average 5 rounds per tank per week expended the 25 pdrs of the division averaged 235 rounds per gun per week in the NW Europe campaign. It was glamorous for 2 months out of 11








< Message edited by Smirfy -- 12/30/2014 12:11:27 AM >

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 12/29/2014 11:13:17 PM   
Baelfiin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

@ Red Lancer

First off I apologize in advance I am not trying to insult you or anyone else from the team and one can see *alot* of effort has gone into developing the game, this is fully undertood. If I had the time I would write in the most polite terms what exactly I feel is wrong but that would take *time*. I am trying to get to the crux of what is wrong quickly so it either can be fixed or obviated so if I come across a bit short it is a reflection on me not you. It is purely for expediant reasons.

Lets get the customer/provider deal out of the way first, Ive purchased a game I am not a tester. I'll let the player related comment slide, you know there is teleporting and wandering pockets, Secondly Ive only played Husky and the full length Italian scenario but quite a few times now, are you saying its not worth playing because its broke and I should play another scenario? Lets test that assertion to destruction. Is the Italian part of the whole game broken you know the teleporting, the invincible pockets? Or do pockets operate differently in France, did the Axis made a big mistake at Falaise? Should they just have wandered home, if 20,00 can hold off 90,000 for 6 weeks now in the countryside isolated imagine what 200,000 can do behind your lines. Or will the Falaise pocket teleport? How long did the Faliase pocket last and they wernt "in game" isolated, 10 days? A turn? Would you call the German retreat from Faliase a rout?

Until I build my new machine the Italian campaign suits the time I can throw at the game. I dont really want to do half an hour turns and have the investment ruined by an AI teleport. So its the Allies and its the Italian campaign for the moment. I used to test computer games I remember being told when I reported a certain "side" was broken "FFS just play another side if its bust" the "side" was never fixed and the game remains broken.


The British learnt that it was better to suppress than kill and destroy with artillery,if it killed or miamed it was a bonus.The artillery was used to get the infantry and associated forces into the defences to destroy them and prevent enemy artillery and mortars interfering with them. It has to be noted that not all troops the Allied faced were FG, SS and PG, I believe "in Game" units have ratings like morale. You know in battle more people are taken prisoner than actually are killed. Then there is experience, I have seen that listed in game as a factor then there is fatigue and when we look at leaders we have ratings like iniative, morale (again) Political (does that mean a German general with a high political rating is less likely to surrender than one without?) there is even admin. Thats a lot of modifiers. But in my experience the only three things that count descending order are Fort level, Fort level and Fort level. That is hardly imaginative and as I said before the Allies broke the Gustav Line and the Gothic Line they also got bloody noses but I dont think they ever said whats the point?

@Warspite

11th Armoured division average 5 rounds per tank per week expended the 25 pdrs of the division averaged 235 rounds per gun per week in the NW Europe campaign. It was glamorous for 2 months out of 11








Screen shots and saves or it never happened =p

_____________________________

"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
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The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.

(in reply to Smirfy)
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