Matrix Games Forums

War in the West gets its first update!Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm version 2.08 is now available!Command gets huge update!Order of Battle: Pacific Featured on Weekly Streaming SessionA new fight for Battle Academy!Buzz Aldrin's Space Program Manager is out for Mac!The definitive wargame of the Western Front is out now! War in the West gets teaser trailer and Twitch Stream!New Preview AAR for War in the West!War in the West Manual preview
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Air Interception CAP

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Advanced Tactics Series >> Advanced Tactics Support >> Air Interception CAP Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Air Interception CAP - 11/22/2014 1:38:03 PM   
ironduke1955


Posts: 855
Joined: 5/17/2006
From: Florida
Status: offline
Bit of a gripe here but I feel its valid, as the air war can begin to feel fairly futile, if dependent on a purely random system. It becomes to feel ridiculous if you put fighters in the air for a entire month and you fail to intercept one single enemy fighter or bomber. Especially if you pretty much know exactly where the enemy air attacks will be made.


it seems that if I know the exact hex where the allies are going to bomb I should be able to allocate CAP to that hex to guarantee intercepting attacking bombers.
After all the air war does not represent one bombing raid but a months worth of air combat.
It seems impossible that the Luftwaffe or any other air force would fly CAP missions and miss the attacking bombers and fighters for a entire month.

It would make sense to have CAP mission that can focused on one hex or one hex plus one that is the surrounding hex's with a diminishing possibility of effectiveness of interception depending on the area covered, but there should always be results from Air Protection subject to random factors such as area covered and a random results roll, but there should never be zero results.


< Message edited by ironduke1955 -- 11/22/2014 3:58:46 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Air Interception CAP - 11/23/2014 2:21:47 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 4987
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline
I also find it crazy that one can fly a weak sacrificial force into air cap range draw all the defending fighters into that attack and then be free to bomb at will afterwards.

(in reply to ironduke1955)
Post #: 2
RE: Air Interception CAP - 11/23/2014 11:24:00 AM   
ironduke1955


Posts: 855
Joined: 5/17/2006
From: Florida
Status: offline
I was told that each interception is a separate event so in theory the next group of attackers should have a equal chance of being intercepted.
If they are not then you were just unlucky, my problem with this is that it was not a matter of luck. Even during the first world war fighters would be able to find each other and dog fights would ensue.
with 2nd World War fighters with ceilings of 30.000 feet and speeds up and beyond 650 KMPH,
finding enemies within a relatively small airspace say over Northern France would not be a random event but a absolute certainty, with multiple daily sorties the odds of avoiding enemy CAP would be zero.
The only way to preserve your fighter or bomber force would be to keep them on the ground. Of course that would not save them from being shot up on the ground, unless you kept them in concrete hangers.

< Message edited by ironduke1955 -- 11/23/2014 12:31:32 PM >

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 3
RE: Air Interception CAP - 11/24/2014 6:47:11 AM   
Vic


Posts: 3719
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline
I think the way to minimize chance effect is to create more air units. Since the intercept check is performed on a unit-to-unit basis.

Another problem here is the setup of gd1938 scenario with really small ranges (in hexes) of the aircraft. So intercept locations are quickly at edge of intercept range.

Best wishes,
Vic

_____________________________

Victor Reijkersz Designs
www.vrdesigns.nl

(in reply to ironduke1955)
Post #: 4
RE: Air Interception CAP - 11/24/2014 3:22:38 PM   
ironduke1955


Posts: 855
Joined: 5/17/2006
From: Florida
Status: offline
Yes you are absolutely right, regards the nature of the scenario and ranges. As to breaking your air force down into smaller packages,
trouble with that is on attack or defense your small package could find itself facing a massive CAP or CAS force and would get obliterated.
It would be best to just remove the intercept check and conduct the air war as it should be conducted on a scenario of this scale, what goes in the air is subject to the overall air war.
So that air superiority is determined by Aircraft Quality and Pilot experience plus production capacity, that is pretty much how the air war panned out in the second world war.
Increase the ground scale then reintroduce intercept check.

< Message edited by ironduke1955 -- 11/25/2014 5:08:23 PM >

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 5
RE: Air Interception CAP - 11/24/2014 6:19:28 PM   
Vic


Posts: 3719
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline
Hi Iron,

Yes I see your point. But I liked the uncertainty aspect and it averages out on the long run. Thats why it is part of the standard ATG rules :)

But in fact this is a scenario design discussion. Since it is possible to disable random effects in intercepts with the current engine.

quote:


Max Intercept Range

The maximum intercept range is the lowest readiness in the unit seen as Action Points modified by rulevar 147. If the unit can then reach the hex it is in intercept range.

Uncertainty of Intercept

An intercept, even if within intercept range and with right readiness and standing order, is never certain. However the closer to the airfield where the interceptors are stationed the airstrike is taking place the bigger the chance an intercept will take place. Rulevar 837 can disable this or set the % chance of intercept to fail at edge of radius of unit. Rulevar 838 can set the % of intercept to fail at theoretical 0 distance. The % to fail somewhere in between 0 range and ultimate range is somewhere in between rulevar 837 en 838. <Not in AT classic rules>



best wishes,
Vic

< Message edited by Vic -- 11/24/2014 7:21:10 PM >


_____________________________

Victor Reijkersz Designs
www.vrdesigns.nl

(in reply to ironduke1955)
Post #: 6
RE: Air Interception CAP - 11/24/2014 9:17:09 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

Posts: 1627
Joined: 9/15/2009
From: Denmark
Status: offline
I guess we could increase the chance of intercept occuring. I´ll take it up with Bombur.

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 7
RE: Air Interception CAP - 11/24/2014 9:57:33 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 4987
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ernieschwitz

I guess we could increase the chance of intercept occuring. I´ll take it up with Bombur.

That doesn't help it just means all the fighters will attack the first raid and all the remaining raids will come in unscathed.

(in reply to ernieschwitz)
Post #: 8
RE: Air Interception CAP - 11/25/2014 5:30:19 AM   
Vic


Posts: 3719
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes


quote:

ORIGINAL: ernieschwitz

I guess we could increase the chance of intercept occuring. I´ll take it up with Bombur.

That doesn't help it just means all the fighters will attack the first raid and all the remaining raids will come in unscathed.


If enough readiness and oil is available they will intercept again. There is no limit to the number of intercepts air units can do.

best wishes,
Vic

_____________________________

Victor Reijkersz Designs
www.vrdesigns.nl

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 9
RE: Air Interception CAP - 11/25/2014 7:32:46 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 4987
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes


quote:

ORIGINAL: ernieschwitz

I guess we could increase the chance of intercept occuring. I´ll take it up with Bombur.

That doesn't help it just means all the fighters will attack the first raid and all the remaining raids will come in unscathed.


If enough readiness and oil is available they will intercept again. There is no limit to the number of intercepts air units can do.

best wishes,
Vic

Readiness goes down a lot with each intercept. I know I have played the game.

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 10
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Advanced Tactics Series >> Advanced Tactics Support >> Air Interception CAP Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.076