Strange behaviour - question about LCUs supply consumption when air bombed

[GreyJoy]

Hi all,

I have a question which may seem strange.

Lately (I think after one of the latest beta modifications), I've noticed something pretty strange happening to my LCUs.

Here's the context:

Let's assume you have a stack of units in hex x:y.
The hex x:y is 46 miles (1 hex) far from your closest base, which has more than 2x needed supplies.
Let's say this stack is formed by 2 Infantry LCUs, 2 AA LCUs and 1 HQ LCU.
The stack is fully supplied. There are no supplies problem all over the theatre.
You own the hex x:y.
An enemy stack arrives in the hex, which remains yours.
The enemy sends his bombers to bomb your troops.
The AA LCUs fire as usually.
When you open the operation report, among the usual messages, you find this:

xxth AA Battalion isolated with no supply!
xxth Ind.AA Gun Co isolated with no supply!
xxth Air Defense AA Regiment isolated with no supply!
xxth Air Defense AA Battalion isolated with no supply!

When checking the units, after the reply, you find that those units suffered the loss of some devices/squads, even if, during the bombing runs, they combat report didn't report any distrupted/lost device, so I assume the lost devices/squads are due to the "isolation without supplies" messages.
As one might guess, when you look at the AA LCUs involved in those messages, they have plenty of supplies, right because there is no supply problem in the theatre.

So, I guess those units used the embedded supplies they initially had for firing at the incoming bombers and then, before the "supply movement" phase was done, the AI checked and "saw" that there were units without supplies sharing an hex with the enemy's LCU, so the "penalty" was added and those squads/devices were "lost".

If it is so, I think it is wrong. Those units shouldn't be penalized by the code with the loss of devices, because they remained without supplies just for the small fraction of time between the bomber attacks and the supply/movement phase.

Anyone else noticed this?

Thanks in advance

GJ

[MrKane]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Hi all,

I have a question which may seem strange.

Lately (I think after one of the latest beta modifications), I've noticed something pretty strange happening to my LCUs.

Here's the context:

Let's assume you have a stack of units in hex x:y.
The hex x:y is 46 miles (1 hex) far from your closest base, which has more than 2x needed supplies.
Let's say this stack is formed by 2 Infantry LCUs, 2 AA LCUs and 1 HQ LCU.
The stack is fully supplied. There are no supplies problem all over the theatre.
You own the hex x:y.
An enemy stack arrives in the hex, which remains yours.
The enemy sends his bombers to bomb your troops.
The AA LCUs fire as usually.
When you open the operation report, among the usual messages, you find this:

xxth AA Battalion isolated with no supply!
xxth Ind.AA Gun Co isolated with no supply!
xxth Air Defense AA Regiment isolated with no supply!
xxth Air Defense AA Battalion isolated with no supply!

When checking the units, after the reply, you find that those units suffered the loss of some devices/squads, even if, during the bombing runs, they combat report didn't report any distrupted/lost device, so I assume the lost devices/squads are due to the "isolation without supplies" messages.
As one might guess, when you look at the AA LCUs involved in those messages, they have plenty of supplies, right because there is no supply problem in the theatre.

So, I guess those units used the embedded supplies they initially had for firing at the incoming bombers and then, before the "supply movement" phase was done, the AI checked and "saw" that there were units without supplies sharing an hex with the enemy's LCU, so the "penalty" was added and those squads/devices were "lost".

If it is so, I think it is wrong. Those units shouldn't be penalized by the code with the loss of devices, because they remained without supplies just for the small fraction of time between the bomber attacks and the supply/movement phase.

Anyone else noticed this?

Thanks in advance

GJ

I have noticed this issue a few times. My 2 arty units were destroyed and 5 others suffer losses due non exiting isolation and luck of supplies last time it occur. Game version I saw problem was Beta-7 and Beta-10.

[btd64]

Someone else will conferm, but what is the enemy strength? AV. If they are large enough of a force, maybe you were surrounded. Just a thought....GP

[MrKane]

Well, in my case if some should surrender it should not be me. I was in pursuit of crashed Japan units.

[wdolson]

Sounds like the hex is over stacked and the units there are burning up all the supply and ending up with none.

Bill

[PaxMondo]

I have not seen the issue. Playing Ironman with NO SL ... Bill may be correct as I'm pretty sure GJ is playing with SL ...

[btd64]

If the hex is not overstacked as Bill said above, Try flying in supply. Or maybe post in the tech forum if you think its a bug with a save for michaelm to look at....GP

[GreyJoy]

No guys, you misunderstand me.

The hex can afford 145,000 men (Stacking Limit) and we both have nearly 60,000. There's no overstacking.

I think I see the problem and think it's related with the code. Better: related to a modification made in one of the betas.

The units use the embedded supplies to fire AA fire during the AIR RESOLUTION phase.
Then, before the SUPPLY/MOVEMENT phase, the computer checks the supply levels of the units in order to apply the penalty for "no supply when the enemy is present in the hex" (which was something added in the betas one year ago), so the AA units are affected by the penalty even if they are going to get more than enough supplies before the turn end (with the supply movement phase).

Pretty easy to test: just put two stacks with AA units in them in a single hex and bomb them during the air phase. The AA units will fire and some of them are gonna suffer from this penalty, clearly visible in the op report txt file.

I do believe this is not WAD and it's just an unwanted ramification of the betas.

Thanks

GJ

[LoBaron]

Noticed this as well. Basically, IMHO, it is just an unlucky choice of words. If it was 'in contact with enemy forces and low on supply' instead of 'isolated with no supply' then noone would raise an eyebrow.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Noticed this as well. Basically, IMHO, it is just an unlucky choice of words. If it was 'in contact with enemy forces and low on supply' instead of 'isolated with no supply' then noone would raise an eyebrow.

But don't you see a problem with the present situation?
The "penalty-check" is made BEFORE the supply/movement phase, which creates a (at least to me) clear problem.

Let me try to make a summary of my pov:

- At the beginning of the turn all the LCUs are in a full supply condition.
- Air combat phase begins and the bombers make the AA units expend their supplies using flak guns
- when the air phase ends, the AI makes a check and sees that those AA units are now with ZERO supplies, so the penalty is given and some squads are lost
- Then the supply/movement phase begins and those very same AA units draw all the needed supplies and get back to a full supply condition.

It's not logical to me. That penalty-check should be made only AFTER the supply/movement phase, not before.

Am I alone in seeing things in this way?

[Alfred]

That is not how the turn is processed.
 
Alfred

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

That is not how the turn is processed.

Alfred

Nice to know Alfred, thanks.
However those units that are using their supplies in the Air Combat resolution phase shouldn't, IMHO, be penalized in this way if they can successfully draw supplies during the same turn. Do you agree on that?
If I remember well, that penalty was made in order to force the units without supplies and isolated from a supply source to slowly fade away, instead of living forever (if unmolested by the enemy) easting grass and dirt.
The way it is working now sounds (at least to my ears) like it is not 100% WAD

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: Alfred

That is not how the turn is processed.

Alfred

Nice to know Alfred, thanks.
However those units that are using their supplies in the Air Combat resolution phase shouldn't, IMHO, be penalized in this way if they can successfully draw supplies during the same turn. Do you agree on that?
If I remember well, that penalty was made in order to force the units without supplies and isolated from a supply source to slowly fade away, instead of living forever (if unmolested by the enemy) easting grass and dirt.
The way it is working now sounds (at least to my ears) like it is not 100% WAD

I'm not exactly certain I understand fully what are the conditions which are applying here.

Have a read of my post #10 in this thread:

tm.asp?m=3710936

and see if that clarifies the supply process for you. In any case if my post is not relevant then you pointing out where it isn't useful might clarify for me exactly what is your problem.

Essentially your flak units firing would normally not fully exhaust their internal organic supply in the one turn. That it appears they are doing so strikes me as being the more critical issue here.

Alfred

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: Alfred

That is not how the turn is processed.

Alfred

Nice to know Alfred, thanks.
However those units that are using their supplies in the Air Combat resolution phase shouldn't, IMHO, be penalized in this way if they can successfully draw supplies during the same turn. Do you agree on that?
If I remember well, that penalty was made in order to force the units without supplies and isolated from a supply source to slowly fade away, instead of living forever (if unmolested by the enemy) easting grass and dirt.
The way it is working now sounds (at least to my ears) like it is not 100% WAD

I'm not exactly certain I understand fully what are the conditions which are applying here.

Have a read of my post #10 in this thread:

tm.asp?m=3710936

and see if that clarifies the supply process for you. In any case if my post is not relevant then you pointing out where it isn't useful might clarify for me exactly what is your problem.

Essentially your flak units firing would normally not fully exhaust their internal organic supply in the one turn. That it appears they are doing so strikes me as being the more critical issue here.

Alfred

Hi Alfred, thanks.

I always read very carefully your posts and have read that one closely too.
Unfortunately it doesn't clarify the present problem.

Ok, let me try to explain myself a bit better:

When I press "end turn", the units in the stack are ALL in full supply condition. All are white.
The supply path is the best possible: there is a base, one hex away, connected with the stack we're talking about by major road and major RailRoad.
The next turn the allied bombers attack that stack and the flak LCUs fire back.
Obviously I don't know if, in mid turn time, those flak units have consumed 10,50 or 100% of their embedded supplies.
What I know is that, after the turn resolution (replay), all the LCUs present in the stack are back to 100% supply, BUT, in the op report, I see that message about the penalty suffered ONLY by the AA units that were present in the hex.

From these data, what I understand is that:
1. the AA units were in 100% supply situation at the beginning of the turn resolution
2. the AA units consumed ALL their supplies (if I have to believe to what the op report says) during the bombing attacks.
3. the AA units are then checked by the AI and got penalized by the distuction of few squads/devices because caught WITHOUT supplies.
4. after the supply/movement phase, when the turn resolution is over, all the AA units involved are back to 100% supplies.

Does it make sense?

[MrKane]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy





Nice to know Alfred, thanks.
However those units that are using their supplies in the Air Combat resolution phase shouldn't, IMHO, be penalized in this way if they can successfully draw supplies during the same turn. Do you agree on that?
If I remember well, that penalty was made in order to force the units without supplies and isolated from a supply source to slowly fade away, instead of living forever (if unmolested by the enemy) easting grass and dirt.
The way it is working now sounds (at least to my ears) like it is not 100% WAD

I'm not exactly certain I understand fully what are the conditions which are applying here.

Have a read of my post #10 in this thread:

tm.asp?m=3710936

and see if that clarifies the supply process for you. In any case if my post is not relevant then you pointing out where it isn't useful might clarify for me exactly what is your problem.

Essentially your flak units firing would normally not fully exhaust their internal organic supply in the one turn. That it appears they are doing so strikes me as being the more critical issue here.

Alfred

Hi Alfred, thanks.

I always read very carefully your posts and have read that one closely too.
Unfortunately it doesn't clarify the present problem.

Ok, let me try to explain myself a bit better:

When I press "end turn", the units in the stack are ALL in full supply condition. All are white.
The supply path is the best possible: there is a base, one hex away, connected with the stack we're talking about by major road and major RailRoad.
The next turn the allied bombers attack that stack and the flak LCUs fire back.
Obviously I don't know if, in mid turn time, those flak units have consumed 10,50 or 100% of their embedded supplies.
What I know is that, after the turn resolution (replay), all the LCUs present in the stack are back to 100% supply, BUT, in the op report, I see that message about the penalty suffered ONLY by the AA units that were present in the hex.

From these data, what I understand is that:
1. the AA units were in 100% supply situation at the beginning of the turn resolution
2. the AA units consumed ALL their supplies (if I have to believe to what the op report says) during the bombing attacks.
3. the AA units are then checked by the AI and got penalized by the distuction of few squads/devices because caught WITHOUT supplies.
4. after the supply/movement phase, when the turn resolution is over, all the AA units involved are back to 100% supplies.

Does it make sense?

My situation I am trying to describe was:
1) My units were moving from one hex to next, not enemy in hex
2) They all have supplies for 3+ days, not red or yellow markers
3) A few Hellens drop bombs on my Arty units, changing they stance "move" to "combat"
4) 4 Arty units were route due of isolation and luck of supplies and took heavy losses, 2 Arty were destroyed for the same reason
5) other not bombed units continued moving forward
6) all units in hex had still 3+ days supplies at the end of turn, no supplies problem, no overstack etc ...

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: MrKane

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: Alfred




I'm not exactly certain I understand fully what are the conditions which are applying here.

Have a read of my post #10 in this thread:

tm.asp?m=3710936

and see if that clarifies the supply process for you. In any case if my post is not relevant then you pointing out where it isn't useful might clarify for me exactly what is your problem.

Essentially your flak units firing would normally not fully exhaust their internal organic supply in the one turn. That it appears they are doing so strikes me as being the more critical issue here.

Alfred

Hi Alfred, thanks.

I always read very carefully your posts and have read that one closely too.
Unfortunately it doesn't clarify the present problem.

Ok, let me try to explain myself a bit better:

When I press "end turn", the units in the stack are ALL in full supply condition. All are white.
The supply path is the best possible: there is a base, one hex away, connected with the stack we're talking about by major road and major RailRoad.
The next turn the allied bombers attack that stack and the flak LCUs fire back.
Obviously I don't know if, in mid turn time, those flak units have consumed 10,50 or 100% of their embedded supplies.
What I know is that, after the turn resolution (replay), all the LCUs present in the stack are back to 100% supply, BUT, in the op report, I see that message about the penalty suffered ONLY by the AA units that were present in the hex.

From these data, what I understand is that:
1. the AA units were in 100% supply situation at the beginning of the turn resolution
2. the AA units consumed ALL their supplies (if I have to believe to what the op report says) during the bombing attacks.
3. the AA units are then checked by the AI and got penalized by the distuction of few squads/devices because caught WITHOUT supplies.
4. after the supply/movement phase, when the turn resolution is over, all the AA units involved are back to 100% supplies.

Does it make sense?

My situation I am trying to describe was:
1) My units were moving from one hex to next, not enemy in hex
2) They all have supplies for 3+ days, not red or yellow markers
3) A few Hellens drop bombs on my Arty units, changing they stance "move" to "combat"
4) 4 Arty units were route due of isolation and luck of supplies and took heavy losses, 2 Arty were destroyed for the same reason
5) other not bombed units continued moving forward
6) all units in hex had still 3+ days supplies at the end of turn, no supplies problem, no overstack etc ...

mmm... but arty units DO NOT fire at enemy's bombers even if bombed, so that is not consistent with the problem I am facing, even tough it seems to show that the "penalty check" is always made, for whatever reason, before the supply/movement phase of the turn resolution, which could lead (if my assumptions are right, which is not certain) to the kind of problems we're seeing

[Banzan]

If MrKane's arty faces the same problem when bombed, then it may be more a "bad description of events, leading to wrong conclusions" instead of a bug/error? Like not enough supply left after fire and being bombing to repair some damaged units?

Just as an idea.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

...Ok, let me try to explain myself a bit better:

When I press "end turn", the units in the stack are ALL in full supply condition. All are white.
The supply path is the best possible: there is a base, one hex away, connected with the stack we're talking about by major road and major RailRoad.
The next turn the allied bombers attack that stack and the flak LCUs fire back.
Obviously I don't know if, in mid turn time, those flak units have consumed 10,50 or 100% of their embedded supplies.
What I know is that, after the turn resolution (replay), all the LCUs present in the stack are back to 100% supply, BUT, in the op report, I see that message about the penalty suffered ONLY by the AA units that were present in the hex.

From these data, what I understand is that:
1. the AA units were in 100% supply situation at the beginning of the turn resolution
2. the AA units consumed ALL their supplies (if I have to believe to what the op report says) during the bombing attacks.
3. the AA units are then checked by the AI and got penalized by the distuction of few squads/devices because caught WITHOUT supplies.
4. after the supply/movement phase, when the turn resolution is over, all the AA units involved are back to 100% supplies.

Does it make sense?

Are you certain that you have lost outright some devices within the turn?
Do these units have adequate internal support elements?

Devices (which includes squads) can be destroyed outright in the fire/assault phases of combat but more commonly what happens is that a ready device which is hit is turned into a disabled device, and a disabled device which is hit is turned into a destroyed device. However, when it is the lack of supply/support elements which is the catalyst, a ready device is not destroyed outright; it is always moved to the disabled status first before it will be destroyed from lack of supply/support elements.

The messages which appear in the game are all string. Far too often players read too much into the flashed message, which often is wildly inaccurate. If you do not suffer any destroyed devices (other than any destroyed directly by the enemy bombers), the most likely explanation is that the message string is wrong. That could easily arise from a beta change not being covered by a suitable pre-existing string message. Michaelm has changed many mouseover messages to reflect beta changes but I don't recall him often adding/rewriting new string messages.

I'll go ferretting into the forums to see if I can find anything which is relevant but I don't recall anything done in the betas which would adversely affect you along the lines you think it has. But if you are actually losing devices within the turn, then it is possible a bug has been introduced because the turn processing is not meant to create the situation you think applies.

Alfred

[Alfred]

GreyJoy,
 
Do you want the good news first or the bad news first?[:D]
 
The bad news is that you are meant to lose devices when the message "isolated unit without supply" is triggered.
The good news is that check should not be occurring, well not on the facts you have provided to date.
 
The string message "isolated unit with supply" is meant to be triggered when a unit checks if it can retreat and the check fails.  IOW when a unit is required to retreat but remains in situ, michaelm increased the cost of doing so by ensuring devices were disabled/destroyed, fatigue went up and morale/experience went down.
 
In your case, being bombarded by enemy planes does not lead to retreat situations.  Nor does it appear to be that you lack a retreat path anyway (and if you actually were forced to retreat you would incur additional losses anyway).  Thus the string message/check should not be called up anyway.
 
Have a read of this thread.
 
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3360927&mpage=1&key=isolated%2Csupply&#3361451
 
It is still important to check, as per my previous post, whether you are actually losing devices.  If no lost devices, nor increased fatigue, nor reduced experience/morale, then essentially you are only experiencing an inappropriate string message.  But if you are suffering those effects then you have a prima facie case that the check is being incorrectly called up.  In the later case it is a problem introduced circa beta 1123m.
 
Alfred

[HansBolter]

Excellent work Alfred!