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Red Army Flip to Dominance - 1.04+

 
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Red Army Flip to Dominance - 1.04+ - 10/4/2014 6:04:37 PM   
DonCzirr


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I've seen in a number of threads saying that since the 1.04 patch, the Soviet defense against the first couple of years of German invasion is now
manageable.

But what about its ability now to achieve parity and then launch Bagration scale offensives and take down Germany?

Has anyone turned that corner and taken it all the way to the end?

If so, how and when were you able to stop the German advance and take the offensive (and keep it)?
Post #: 1
RE: Red Army Flip to Dominance - 1.04+ - 10/6/2014 3:49:05 AM   
gwgardner

 

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Again it's whether you're referring to solo or PBEM play. Solo play, definintely have turned the corner and pushed back to Berlin. PBEM haven't played past early 43 with the latest version. I was holding my own, definitely had the Germans stalled. Trouble was in that game, the US was AI, and never did anything, so I wasn't getting any support from the West. My opponent quit before I got a good idea of whether I'd ever be able to build up enough to push him back.

Also, in the winter of '42 I foolishly lost 5 tank corps in an ill-prepared offensive where the Germans had air parity - BIG mistake. Tactical bombers can be devasting in this game if one uses them in concentration against armor - especially when you fail to defend your armor with a good fighter cover.

(in reply to DonCzirr)
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RE: Red Army Flip to Dominance - 1.04+ - 10/6/2014 3:55:09 AM   
gwgardner

 

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ToF's Barbarossa is nowhere near as detailed as WiTE, however there are many elements to it that give it a sort of depth. Proper use of air power for recon, attack, and defense. Importance of supply lines/railroads. Research and development. Control of resources. Refit, reinforcement, production.

Biggest flaw in my opinion, for the whole game, is that there is no stacking. You either have divisions or corps. The naval war is lacking also, although the sub/ASW war is important. A flaw in that is that the player has no control over routing of convoys.

< Message edited by gwgardner -- 10/6/2014 4:59:28 AM >

(in reply to gwgardner)
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RE: Red Army Flip to Dominance - 1.04+ - 10/6/2014 12:31:31 PM   
DonCzirr


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It's a hard thing to model I think.

Some of the key elements of the Soviet ability to bounce back and turn the tide were:

- Willingness to fight and keep on fighting / slip back behind the lines as opposed to what was seen in France
- Battles where there were extraordinary feats of tenacity - probably beyond what is seen in normal sieges in this game - perhaps a special Soviet modifier is needed that would enable a Stalingrad scenario?
- Ability to misdirect the Germans operationally - perhaps also put in a special rule where recon against the Soviets is sometimes very off-base - thus giving the Soviet player the ability to "wrong foot" the Germans before large operations.


I've started a Grand Campaign game as the USSR - it's interesting so far ... my troops are slow as hell and my rail capacity is bleh ... looking forward to all the Trucks and Jeeps that should eventually come from the US ....

(in reply to gwgardner)
Post #: 4
RE: Red Army Flip to Dominance - 1.04+ - 10/6/2014 2:09:59 PM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 2396
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

ToF's Barbarossa is nowhere near as detailed as WiTE, however there are many elements to it that give it a sort of depth. Proper use of air power for recon, attack, and defense. Importance of supply lines/railroads. Research and development. Control of resources. Refit, reinforcement, production.

Biggest flaw in my opinion, for the whole game, is that there is no stacking. You either have divisions or corps. The naval war is lacking also, although the sub/ASW war is important. A flaw in that is that the player has no control over routing of convoys.


Agree that ToF does not attempt to be a detailed representation of any particular aspect of WW2, as it covers the whole of the European Theatre, from the Urals to across the Atlantic and from Northern Norway to the Sahara, air, land and sea, resource, production and unit building, for the whole war period and beyond, it can only ever be a generalisation, but that is still quite a big package.

I am considering that Corps units do represent stacking, in that they comprise the combined strength of several divisions, they are the concentrated striking power of your forces. One way to get more flexibility is to use the split/merge feature, but modified to make it more realistic. You can use Corps units to maximise attack strength, but when you need to move to defence, or in completing encirclements, you can split some of the Corps/Divisions into smaller units. As it is configured in the game, splitting costs are high and there is a delay before units can move after the split, reducing the usefulness of this feature.

A simple modification of the game files will reduce the cost and time delay of split/merge and make an integral part of managing units.

Here are the notes on this feature.

..........

In a game with no stacking, the unit split/merge option is a useful method of making possible a more flexible and realistic use of units. The AI will not use Split/Merge.

The intention is to reduce the time and PP cost of splitting/merging units, the suggested setting, in the extract below, will result in the split units being able to move/act next turn and at a more modest cost (2PP, INF Corps- 12PP, ARM Div), to more realistically represent the formation of battlegroups, extending defence lines, etc.. Two units are created of the same type, but at reduced strength depending on the setting of the % slider.

The existing game settings (e.g. Infantry Corps - split cost 16PP, time delay 6 turns) are intended to stop the exploit of splitting units, then rebuilding both back to full strength units more quickly and cheaply than entirely new units could have been built. To avoid the exploit, name the split units XXX/1, XXX/2, do not reinforce them to full strength, keep them at 50%, or less, merge the named units back into the same single unit, at a later stage. Or not, it's your game, use it as you will.

Application :

data/scenarios/Scenario Name/ 'consts.ini' file

Text :

[UnitSplitting]
FreezeTimeModifierAfterUnitSplit_Land = 0.1
CostModifierOfUnitSplit_Land = 0.1


Note :
Units will merge into the last selected unit, you select a unit to merge and it will combine into the hex of the unit you select to merge into.

After split both units cannot move/act until the next turn.

Units at 100% strength cannot accept a merge, which can only take place if strength is reduced enough to absorb the strength from the merging unit.

..........


A simple edit of text can produce a big effect in the game.

There are many other aspects of the game that can be modified for more realism, although I only play against the AI, so no problems agreeing on a set-up for the game.

Comments in the forum complain that division size units are too small to be of any use, but correctly used, the combination of large Corps units and smaller divisions, or split units, can be very useful. I have modified the files to make digging in longer and deeper, this means that if Blitzkrieg slows down, even divisions can dig in deep enough to be difficult to shift. The 'Friendly Units' defence modifier, in the game files, can be increased so that units under attack get more support from other friendly units in range. A large powerful corps, or several divisions in supporting range, can support divisions in a defence line, as they come under attack, by adding additional strength to the defence odds.

As a balance, I have increased the effectiveness of combined attacks from multiple directions, the 'Directions' attack modifier, meaning that if you let the enemy break into your line, the combined attack of several divisions can overcome a large Corps unit. GW was talking about house rules to encourage the formation of more realistic defence lines, these modifications do this, as isolated units however powerful become vulnerable. Friendly units in range provide more support, encouraging grouping units into a supporting defence formation.

The 'Friendly Unit' defence and 'Directions' attack odds modifiers both take into account allied units of the same faction, so partially overcomes one of the failings of the game, in that each nation has its turn individually and combined attacks by different nations are not normally possible. However, hidden in these modifiers, other nations' forces can add strength to either defence, or attack, and make some kind of co-operation possible. You can place German units next to a unit targeted for attack, then hit it with an Italian attack. The German units will add to the 'Directions' modifier and raise the odds of the attack. In defence, allied units of friendly nations add to the odds for defence, when in range of an attacked unit. Raising the values of these modifiers, in the game files, makes them more effective and increases the overall effect of this co-operation between units and nations. The combat system is quite flexible to modification to get the effects you want, I have prioritised in getting a challenging game out of the AI and to simulate the early war advantages that the Axis have, whilst the Blitzkrieg keeps moving, attack has an advantage, but when the front stops moving the advantage moves to the defence.

The point is, that the basic game can be made more realistic, if you are prepared to modify some of parameters in Scenario consts.ini files. This works for movement, rail repair time, encirclement survival, upkeep costs and many more, as well as combat.

The naval game is limited, but I am leaving it on auto for combat resolution, as a supreme commander I don't need to know the detail of naval combat, just let the admirals get on with it, all I want to see is the results. I like being able to assemble and deploy fleets, sticking to the strategy rather than combat and that works quite well.

I have found this game very enjoyable, but it does take some effort to get the best out of it, it's almost like a wargamer's tool-kit, although the Editor is difficult to use, modifications can be put straight into the game files with 'Excel', or 'Windows Notepad'. There are National consts.ini files, that allow changes to data for individual nations only, the variations possible are huge.

< Message edited by Rasputitsa -- 11/16/2014 1:33:37 PM >


_____________________________

"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon

“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon

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(in reply to gwgardner)
Post #: 5
RE: Red Army Flip to Dominance - 1.04+ - 10/6/2014 9:26:58 PM   
baloo7777


Posts: 778
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From: eastern CT
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Hey Rasputitsa! Great stuff, as always. I tried the CEAW-Gold vs3.00 scenario and it crashed or locked up as much as TOF. So I am ready to start TOF vs AI with the many tweaks you and others have recommended through this forum! Thanks again!

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JRR

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Post #: 6
RE: Red Army Flip to Dominance - 1.04+ - 10/6/2014 10:13:43 PM   
gwgardner

 

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Rasputitsa, would you consider posting all your modifications in the mods sub-forum. I'm always looking for a new AI experience.

(in reply to baloo7777)
Post #: 7
RE: Red Army Flip to Dominance - 1.04+ - 10/7/2014 1:32:20 AM   
baloo7777


Posts: 778
Joined: 5/18/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

Rasputitsa, would you consider posting all your modifications in the mods sub-forum. I'm always looking for a new AI experience.


+1


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JRR

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Post #: 8
RE: Red Army Flip to Dominance - 1.04+ - 10/7/2014 4:04:34 PM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 2396
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: baloo7777
quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner
Rasputitsa, would you consider posting all your modifications in the mods sub-forum. I'm always looking for a new AI experience.

+1


Working on that now, PMs sent


< Message edited by Rasputitsa -- 10/7/2014 5:06:11 PM >


_____________________________

"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon

“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon

“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon

(in reply to baloo7777)
Post #: 9
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