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About 1:1-2:1 rule - 9/25/2014 4:58:35 AM   
Saper2229


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Hi all!
Nice rule. Germany prepare pockets operation and protected his flank resting panzer division. After Soviet turn see this:




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RE: About 1:1-2:1 rule - 9/25/2014 4:59:54 AM   
Saper2229


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Germany Leader




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RE: About 1:1-2:1 rule - 9/25/2014 5:01:58 AM   
Saper2229


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Germany bombers sleep in 7 hex airbase and result my panzers heads cut supply




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RE: About 1:1-2:1 rule - 9/25/2014 5:08:02 AM   
Saper2229


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I not like see, that in 1941 the best Germany panzer division can retreat after attack 3 standart rifle divisions. Germany was 163 tanks and full ammo

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RE: About 1:1-2:1 rule - 9/25/2014 5:42:59 AM   
morvael


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That;'s why some want to see the 1:1->2:1 rule gone. And it will be optional in 1.08, should the players agree.

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RE: About 1:1-2:1 rule - 9/25/2014 6:42:21 AM   
Don77

 

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Hmm,,

Aren't the conflicting demands are between history and player actions.
- the Russians did historically make headway in 41, and the 2-1 rule enables that
- with a mild blizzard, and no natural advantage, won't the Russians be less aggressive in defence in 41?
= so, does the 2-1 (for 41 only) enable a more effective simulation?

But, wont we need to wait for 1.08 to test this out?

Don

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RE: About 1:1-2:1 rule - 9/25/2014 6:48:12 AM   
morvael


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Yes, there's kind of conflict between removing 1->2 and using mild blizzard at the same time. Perhaps the blizzard could be less mild without 1->2 (or 1->2 should not apply from December). Players will have to experiment and find out what combination they like.

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RE: About 1:1-2:1 rule - 9/25/2014 7:21:11 AM   
Callistrid

 

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My experiment with the 1:1=2:1 rule is enough to attack with the 50% of the target CV +1, for high succes. With 8 CV strong attacking russians, plus air bombing/additional attack (and a good leader) is enough to beat 12-13 CV strong german forces.



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RE: About 1:1-2:1 rule - 9/25/2014 8:36:23 AM   
NavalNewZ


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.

< Message edited by NavalNewZ -- 9/25/2014 9:43:11 AM >


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RE: About 1:1-2:1 rule - 9/25/2014 10:51:51 AM   
Pelton


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In my game vs sapper he was able to win 90% of the time vs 2 rested infantry divisions in woods or behind rivers.

He averaged 10-12 attacks per turn starting turn 7. This means german infantry morale is garabage by spring 42 and OOB is in the dumps. SHC is on the offensive by July 1942

Middle Earth rules belong in a game based on Middle Earth not WW II.

Bomazz, Katza, MT et ect can and do make a wall of steel and it simply can not be broken because of thi rule. GHC offensive operations are over around turn 7-10.


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RE: About 1:1-2:1 rule - 9/25/2014 6:08:34 PM   
javats


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From what I understand, the Soviet used an all out attack method.
This method increases success some What (pre-panzer), but at very very high cost.( 50% )
But in 40&41 with very poor operational leadership the success rate should be very low, and a very high cost (90%)

But a success against a reduced strength panzer Div (in non-snow) is still very questionable., maybe infantry .
And the cost to soviet attacker is ridiculously low, min. of 50% or much more cost

Suggest; this rule should stay so Soviet has some chance of attacking but with reduce success against any mech/pz mix & with much higher cost over all.

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RE: About 1:1-2:1 rule - 9/25/2014 7:40:28 PM   
Saper2229


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quote:

Yes, there's kind of conflict between removing 1->2 and using mild blizzard at the same time. Perhaps the blizzard could be less mild without 1->2 (or 1->2 should not apply from December). Players will have to experiment and find out what combination they like.

Germany have more than Soviets attacker division 50% expirience, morale and first strike tactic in 1941 and the best leader, why is posibiliti to grow Soviets CV?
After late update Germany CV work not corrected, I think. The WiTE veteran gamer must remember, what is was attack Germany units without hight advance by Soviets if Germany units support HQ (losses of attacker ), now Soviets can win with his start CV has 50% low, than Germany.

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RE: About 1:1-2:1 rule - 9/25/2014 7:57:34 PM   
Saper2229


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Next attack in my game with Mktours
The first battle of full Germany infantry division. Soviets tank corps attack across river. See Soviets losses - where Germany is fire?




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RE: About 1:1-2:1 rule - 9/25/2014 8:14:33 PM   
morvael


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This battle looks like a good example how effective the ground support can be - it's enough that it will disrupt the defender to make him retreat.

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RE: About 1:1-2:1 rule - 9/25/2014 8:15:30 PM   
morvael


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Also, Germany has very poor command chain (non-existent), this costs them much more than 20% CV, check division roll chances in supply window.

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RE: About 1:1-2:1 rule - 9/25/2014 8:24:02 PM   
morvael


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And German fire was good, they destroyed/damaged/disrupted more Soviets than Soviets were able to d/d/d Germans (air excepted). What costed the battle was bad command and air support.

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RE: About 1:1-2:1 rule - 9/25/2014 10:19:42 PM   
Pelton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Also, Germany has very poor command chain (non-existent), this costs them much more than 20% CV, check division roll chances in supply window.


THE gOD SPEAKS

Where were u 2 yrs ago when I was pting this sht out? Not based on techno but based on wth this is messed up?

It would be nice if peeps could be objective and not subjective about history.

Look up what subjective and objective means.

Germany has piss poor command chain? ANOTHER Middle Earth POS rule set.

Lol keep up the UBER work based objective data.

2by3


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RE: About 1:1-2:1 rule - 9/26/2014 2:31:06 AM   
Oshawott

 

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This last battle just shows how important air support is. When you look at the numbers you can see that the battle was decided almost entirely by air support. The overall losses are so small on both sides because it's a hasty attack. Would have been interesting to see the battle with resolution level 4/5. Actually, I don't think there was much of a battle. Air bombardment followed by retreat.

Also, this is not a good German unit with 65 morale/experience. And why was it assigned to OKH? Does this not mean that practically all leadership rolls will fail?

< Message edited by Oshawott -- 9/26/2014 3:31:32 AM >

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RE: About 1:1-2:1 rule - 9/26/2014 3:34:10 AM   
Don77

 

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G'day

Apologies for needing to confirm a rule, Rule 15.8 doesn't seem to state an end date?
- does the 2:1 Sov rule have an end date? I thought it only applied in 41?
- will the proposed patch 1.08 be binary for 2:1/1:1 (ie lasts all game) and/or have an end date


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RE: About 1:1-2:1 rule - 9/26/2014 4:01:00 AM   
KWG


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at 03:15 tired, panzer and recon, elements of the 8th panzer were attacked by strong Russian forces, due to poor communication with 57th panzer corps, heavy Russian artillery and success of Russian sappers against panzers, 8thPz thinking attack bigger pulled back, losing contact with flanking unit. mission priorites prevented any major help from luftwaffe.

local counter attacks by PzGren elements seems to have stunned the Russians.
Although, Russian cavalry reported to be roaming west of 8thPz.

8thPz casualties
~5% inf
~20% ärmour


battle results seem ok , just over done retreat. looks like 8thPz pushed back 30 miles ,with those casualties????, 10 miles maybe.
ohhhhh... lol it was just 10 miles.



355th infdiv
Tactical disadvantage, having to rely on OKH for field orders.
with that many Russian planes, maybe should have had better response from luftwaffe since 355th had direct connection with OKH. Then again the planes seem to have been no big threat, causing little damage or disruption... unless to 355th's supply. Don't know how far 355th retreated.
Or is that 2102 men disrupted by Russian aircraft... yep...(>10% disrupted) which would have called for "get air support now!"


< Message edited by KWG -- 9/26/2014 5:05:11 PM >

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RE: About 1:1-2:1 rule - 9/26/2014 4:54:03 AM   
morvael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael
Also, Germany has very poor command chain (non-existent), this costs them much more than 20% CV, check division roll chances in supply window.

Germany has piss poor command chain? ANOTHER Middle Earth POS rule set.

I'm saying that in this case, in the game, Germany has poor command chain. It's not good to have your units fight assigned to O.K.H. directly (the same applies to STAVKA). The rules like when there is a proper command chain of SHQ-AG-A-C, all manned by good leaders, with the division at the end of this chain. Germany has better command in this game, because they have more command levels (Soviet corps hqs go the way of Dodo) and better leaders on average. It's crucial to have a chance of all rolls above 50%, preferably 60-70% in the unit that has to fight.

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RE: About 1:1-2:1 rule - 9/26/2014 8:08:01 AM   
Saper2229


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Full Germany division kill 93 men - that is normal!?

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RE: About 1:1-2:1 rule - 9/26/2014 8:29:08 AM   
morvael


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They didn't engage in a fight to the death. Heavily bombed from the air, unsupported by higher command they withdrew. Casualties were caused by a lone rearguard battalion.

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RE: About 1:1-2:1 rule - 9/26/2014 6:08:12 PM   
Oshawott

 

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You had just received that division as replacement and railed it straight to the front. The combat report tells me that you derailed the unit. Otherwise even a brigade would have defeated this division. These guys came fresh from the train station and were then attacked by 200 tanks and 100 bombers. There were no leaders to give them any instructions. As a result they ran away after the first shots were fired.

I love interpreting combat reports. Each one is like a little story.

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RE: About 1:1-2:1 rule - 9/27/2014 4:01:14 AM   
Saper2229


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Division not rail mode

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RE: About 1:1-2:1 rule - 9/27/2014 6:40:17 AM   
janh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael
Yes, there's kind of conflict between removing 1->2 and using mild blizzard at the same time. Perhaps the blizzard could be less mild without 1->2 (or 1->2 should not apply from December). Players will have to experiment and find out what combination they like.


I think it is going to be a compromise like that which must apply. One just needs to be sure not to bias advantages too much to one side as the general balance of the game seems quite right at the moment.

The second retreat, the left-alone inf div, certainly should have happened with and without 1:2. Wouldnt make any sense otherwise.

The first battle, the tank division, also should have a decent chance for a retreat, though I'd think the losses seem a bit high for such an event in 41. German reports during the blitz phases of 41 and 42 showed that Soviets concentrated often on pushing tank spearheads back, as the Panzerdivisions had poor defensive capabilities and were vulnerable when exposed without infantry support. Many a bridgehead was at stake or pocket cordon remained leaky/was broken temporarily until the infantry came up. Sapper might consider putting mot divs in key spots, which may mean a slower advance or smaller bites.

< Message edited by janh -- 9/27/2014 7:40:53 AM >

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RE: About 1:1-2:1 rule - 9/27/2014 2:05:31 PM   
Oshawott

 

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quote:

Division not rail mode


I know Saper222, that is what I wrote.

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RE: About 1:1-2:1 rule - 9/30/2014 7:39:30 AM   
Rodimstev

 

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hi all,

it is always curious that a result of combat is not analysed with all détails...for example the air combat... is it normal that just 4 fighters attacked by 99 soviets fighters can return with out any casualties to their base?

So, for me the issue about the combat is realistic because it is not a combat...when you see in front of you 200 T34 and that you have not any support, it is better for your troops to retreat.....no?

i think that the commander of 355 I.D is a great commander that does'nt want yo have heavy casualties and save his men...

rodim

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