Bug? Please help!!

[vonBuletzel]

Hi guys!
I used to play the old 12OH and seemed nice.
Now i've started this new one after remake and so.
But i found out that i simply can not advance more than one week, playing the long 43 campaign, luftwaffe side.
here goes my story, please bear with me:
changed the production to the following fighters: RE-2005 Sagitarius, G-55 Centauro, JU-88C-6 and preorder the GO-229.
all factories are refitting for this new production. moved back from the frontline all the italian fighter squadrons, stripped and re-equipped with lower ranked fighter. all stab bf-109's are receiving the RE-2005, all stab fw-190's are receiving the G-55's.

now, i've noticed that all the german fighters are virtually crap vs any of the allied fighters and i'll come with some examples:
bf-109G6 bouncing the typhoons --> all this kind of attacks, the very best of the result, i've got one typhoon shot down; all the other cases from this bounces i've lost at least 1 109;
same goes for the 109G6-R6, same for 109G2, same for 109G9;
i've got better results with fw-190A5; the fw-190A6 is crap vs everything at any altitude;
same thing is happening with the same fighters vs, for example, the P40's, which on the original BTR was like shooting a fish in a barrel. now, any bounce or direct attack on this P40 have no other result than massive losses on axis side.
the re-2005 and the g-55 are, nevertheless coping a lot better.

now, i've noticed that, at the very end of the day, the same behavior of the game:
i loose 1-5 fighters, the computer looses around 40+.
then the computer launches a random attack (some fighters flying around 5000-7000) directed to some airfields in france. i scramble the fighters from that airfield, some are patrolling, some just to be off the airfield, others to intercept this raids. also, other fighters from same region airfield are trying to intercept this raids. the result is obvious: my fighters intercept the raid, then fly all the way alongside enemy raid until those fighters are attacking the airfield. also the patrolling aircraft always fail to intercept this raids.
when attacking the airfield, which have no other fighters on it as they are all in the air, the computer manage to find some planes to damage and to destroy until the computer matches the loses.

is that a normal behavior?
is it a bug?

please please help!!

[JeffroK]

I cant say I've seen any results like you mention, especially with the P40.

Its possible the AI is selecting the perfect altitude to get the best out of its aircraft, after all, a Typhoon is probably 40+mph faster than a bf109G plus has 4 good cannon to knock you down with.

Maybe fiddle with your intercept settings, could be searching for the perfect position but chasing faster aircraft never get there.

[cohimbra]

ORIGINAL: vonBuletzel

now, i've noticed that, at the very end of the day, the same behavior of the game:
i loose 1-5 fighters, the computer looses around 40+.
then the computer launches a random attack (some fighters flying around 5000-7000) directed to some airfields in france. i scramble the fighters from that airfield, some are patrolling, some just to be off the airfield, others to intercept this raids. also, other fighters from same region airfield are trying to intercept this raids. the result is obvious: my fighters intercept the raid, then fly all the way alongside enemy raid until those fighters are attacking the airfield. also the patrolling aircraft always fail to intercept this raids.
when attacking the airfield, which have no other fighters on it as they are all in the air, the computer manage to find some planes to damage and to destroy until the computer matches the loses.

It's true that the AI fly strafe mission when his losses are very high compared to yours...and always find some a/c in the field. But I don't think it's a bug: when you scramble your fighter groups, not all a/c generally can take-off; some are in maintenance, some are refueling, some are repairing...try to take a look at this (you can do this selecting Campaign Summary -> Show Order of Battle and selecting the interested groups), and let us know.

[TaggedYa]

ORIGINAL: vonBuletzel

changed the production to the following fighters: RE-2005 Sagitarius, G-55 Centauro, JU-88C-6 and preorder the GO-229.

The best all mission fighter available to you at start is the FW190A-6. The Centauro is nice but isn't worth the double engine cost. The Regiani is also a fiat engine and takes 2 but you need some of them (why later). You do not want to start on the 229 right at the start. It uses 4 engines for each research copy and the way the system works if you put 100% of your production to them at start you still wouldn't see one till 45.

ORIGINAL: vonBuletzelnow
all factories are refitting for this new production. moved back from the frontline all the italian fighter squadrons, stripped and re-equipped with lower ranked fighter. all stab bf-109's are receiving the RE-2005, all stab fw-190's are receiving the G-55's.

In the Matrix version 100% of the Italian air force surrenders no matter what you do. All pilots are removed. So you may as well use them while you can. Give them the stuff you will not use (keep the Centauros and Veltros and 2005s).

ORIGINAL: vonBuletzelnow, i've noticed that all the german fighters are virtually crap vs any of the allied fighters and i'll come with some examples:
bf-109G6 bouncing the typhoons --> all this kind of attacks, the very best of the result, i've got one typhoon shot down; all the other cases from this bounces i've lost at least 1 109;
same goes for the 109G6-R6, same for 109G2, same for 109G9;

The 109 in all its versions is in fact crap against any of the new Allied fighters. It doesn't have a prayer against a Typhoon which out classes it in every way. The 109G6/R6 is a field conversion of an obsolete fighter to give it the fire power to attack bombers. It can't catch any fighter or survive the fight if it did.

ORIGINAL: vonBuletzelnow
i've got better results with fw-190A5; the fw-190A6 is crap vs everything at any altitude;
same thing is happening with the same fighters vs, for example, the P40's, which on the original BTR was like shooting a fish in a barrel. now, any bounce or direct attack on this P40 have no other result than massive losses on axis side.
the re-2005 and the g-55 are, nevertheless coping a lot better.

In the Talonsoft version the fighterbomber mission routine was bugged. A unit of FBs that was intercepted would not jettison their bombs and fight back. As they were handicapped by the bombs and flying strait and slow they got slaughtered. To stop the carnage in the Tiffys the stats were changed so that a loaded Tiffy was as fast as a Mosquito. The Matrix team fixed the mission bug but didn't adjust the speed back down. Thus the Germans can't catch a Tiffy on the way to the target. The only aircraft available to you to engage Tiffys inbound is the RE 2005. It is fast enough and nimble enough to force and engagement. Once engaged (they drop their bombs and the marker box turns red then your FW190s can fight them and do ok. Or, you can do what I do and turn the targets they are going for into flack traps. Let them hit the target then engage them outbound.

ORIGINAL: vonBuletzelnow
now, i've noticed that, at the very end of the day, the same behavior of the game:
i loose 1-5 fighters, the computer looses around 40+.
then the computer launches a random attack (some fighters flying around 5000-7000) directed to some airfields in france. i scramble the fighters from that airfield, some are patrolling, some just to be off the airfield, others to intercept this raids. also, other fighters from same region airfield are trying to intercept this raids. the result is obvious: my fighters intercept the raid, then fly all the way alongside enemy raid until those fighters are attacking the airfield. also the patrolling aircraft always fail to intercept this raids.
when attacking the airfield, which have no other fighters on it as they are all in the air, the computer manage to find some planes to damage and to destroy until the computer matches the loses.

is that a normal behavior?
is it a bug?

please please help!!

It is not a bug. The afternoon sweeps are one of the few things that the AI does well. Fighters on a sweep mission are flying fast. If your fighters are on bounce doctrine then they are trying to maneuver for advantage against fast moving enemies that aren't carrying bombs. Direct doctrine has a little better chance to engage them but not a lot. Here you are again in need of very fast interceptors and you don't have many. Use Regis to engage or just wait till they are outbound. And put lots of flak on your airfields.

Are you paying attention to your pilot fatigue? By the afternoon many of your pilots will have flown 2 missions. That base defense may very well be mission number 3. Fatigue plays a major roll in engagement.

As to "finding some planes to damage", every plane that is ready, fueling, in repair, in maintenance, or in reserve, is available to be damaged. I have never seen an airfield that had none of those and probably never will.

ORIGINAL: vonBuletzelnow

i loose 1-5 fighters, the computer looses around 40+.

If all of your fighters are crap how are you attaining between 8 and 40 to 1 kill ratio???

[vonBuletzel]

so
many thanks for your kind answers. they are very helpful.
bf-109 is indeed useless. i try to use them as much as i can to only engage the b17's, b-24, b-25 and maybe outbound the typhoons.

i can't understand why a fighter which is in a high patrol ( aprox 1500 feets above the attackers altitude), and having all the advantages on the paper (eg FW-190A5 vs P40L/A-36A Apache - max speed 410 vs 364/365, mnvr 36 vs 31/32) which is also under bouncing doctrine fails to engage the target until after the attacker hits the airfield? what kind of fighter sweep is that when planes are mixed and in facto are indeed attacking an airfield? even compared to bf-109's G6 those data are better for the 109 side... still...
i've noticed this behavior only on this missions. the attacks are for the france side of axis, so the squads there are fresh with no mission flown during the day.
i can admit that there are some planes on the airfield that are under maintenance or repairs ... but so many? that particular unit is 1/JG2 on fw-190A5, beamount-le-roger airfield ... usually this unit has a readyness of 35 airplanes...
so, if i scramble 35 up in the air, the rest of numbers are like 6 under repairs/maintenance, 9 in transit, 3 in reserve.... there is no way to be 40 other planes on the ground....

regarding the G-229, i use the factories that will appear late on the game to produce the go-229 spares and engines and assembly. not the running ones.
i use g-55 because it has slightly better radius, better climb rate, better high alt, better load than 109 and 190. anyhow, i use them only for early fighter bomber interception and later only for bomber bouncer.
i use the combination of re-2005 and g-55 because they share the same engine. so from the manufacturing point of view i only have to produce 3 types of engine including the jet ones.

another question please: why loading rockets is not available on all luftflotte? i can load rockets on the germam/french airfields but not on the italian?

[Soldmaxim]

I made an advancement in my 44 long game until 02 February 1945. Almost won it (just 1 point below win score) in July 44 before Normandy breakthrough...
Now stand with airsuperiorty always at 1, industry 9 points and 18 for terror bombing. 1196 Me 262 in pool, fighter force a mix of 152H/C and 262. R4M is a killer - full 36jf Geschwader salvo (each of the 152/262 carries 12 rockets) results in 15-20 destroyed/damaged bombers. My Nj are primarily 262B with fewer 154 and 88G that I started replacing with 388 - that I received one month before - from 1 February 45.

I play the standard 02 version with Feldgrau map mod only.
In January 45 I saw blue colored 47M appearing in the West wall front there have been no engangement with them so far. The worse thing is P-80!!! now flying escort missions in Italy.

My suggestion is to switch to 190D production - it appears early enough and can cope with 51D and 47D-25.
Go-229 in my 345 turn of 44 - I did not get any yet while I lowered production of all 262 in beginning of January 45 and stopped production of any 262 in favour of 229 in the last week of January 45.
I have 144 JUmo jets produced every turn... If I play 44 full campaign again I would not produce any 2 engine day fighter at all. I see over 200 Re-2005 in pool from early months of 44 as well as hundreds of 410B and now I think - those engines could do better job with other applications. I would also produce more 109G5AS and less 190A6. Actually from the start I would build a force of fighter intercept 109G6 replacing those with 109AS and build more 190A8 replacing all Zerstorer and other counter bomber groups with those.
A large number of 109G6 is also needed to replace all Romanian / other Co-axis groups with more capable equipment. Once you reach 500 109G6 in pool you can do it with all IAR/D520 tbc junk. By playing the change back and forth you can increase the figure of your 109G and technically in 1 turn replace all those with 109 which later can be changed to any other airplane.

[cohimbra]

@Soldmaxim: I assume you play vs IA, right? And what's the benefit to build 109G5/AS? It's really effective against the monster allied fighter?

[Soldmaxim]

I play against AI - right, otherwise 345 turns would be at least 5 years - I think... Still it was 9 months - actually started this last campaign in January 2014 - between skiing/ski touring in your wonderful Alto Adige area...
109G5AS is faster, better manoeuvrability and longer range than G6 and 190A. I used it with considerable success for most of my fighter aimed interceptor groups until I could replace them with 190D.

[Mehring]

Now in May 44 in an 700 turn AI campaign I've been grinding through slowly over some years now.

Got the G5AS in Dec 44 and used it mostly in Hohen and Stab units as recce interceptors. An improvement but not decisive. Twin engine day fighters are still valuable IMO, even though by spring 44 the fiction of targeting priorities makes it impossible to strip bombers of their escorts in most cases. Fighters generally just attack bombers, whatever you set them to do. When you do turn back the escort, however, and if you have enough single engines to intercept replacement escorts b4 they arrive, the durability of a ZG of Me410 enables them to hang on until they've severely mauled or even destroyed the formation. You don't need many, but I'd keep churning out a few 410s.

I think Fw190A-8s in all forms offer the worst of all possible worlds- vulnerable to escorts, slow and short ranged. I'd never bother with them again.

D9s weren't worth the trouble, they trade losses with escorts in early 44 but to preserve your good pilots, you want much better. G-14 were obsolete on arrival, but K-4s are handy, still, in May 44.

What has turned the game around is the arrival of Ta152H/C in late Mar/Apr 44. With hindsight, I'd not bother with G5AS D-9s or any Bf single engine and go straight for these. As well as speed, manoeuvrability, high altitude performance and decent armament, these guys also have range. If you could get 152H in December or even January 44 I reckon the game's in the bag.

Just got 262As which are good to base near known and necessary targets as they can be devastating, perhaps too much against fighters, but short range limits their use value. You need the Ta's even if you have enough engines for jets.

Now approaching June 44 and all my day fighter production is Ta152 and Me 262. Research is just starting for Ta-183 but no hurry as I want to re-equip all my units with the models in hand, they're doing fine.

For NF, got got a few He217-A5 and Ju88-G in production with Ju188 soon to appear, me thinks. Looking forward to see how 262B fares with centimetric radar, but not wasting too much engine capacity researching these just yet.

A couple of advanced fighters use old engines so I plan to use stockpiled engines this way, just to see how they work and add diversity for entertainment.

[cohimbra]

ORIGINAL: Soldmaxim
skiing/ski touring in your wonderful Alto Adige area...

...it's not bad [:D]

And about useful planes (I'm involved in a pbem game, 03/44, 190/700 turn)...versus human player I found the 410A, 110G2 and 190F really useless; I mean, they certainly do thier job, but you don't see many unescorted raid (never), and versus heavy (when I saw heavy, I saw HEAVY) escorted raid they take horrible, horrible losses. No chance to fight versus alone bombers. The 190A8/R8 are better in my opinion, not much, but better. About single engine fighters, no one can compete with allied fighters: 109G (that we all hate [:D]) can fight at high altitude, they took heavy losses, sure, but they don't are worst than 190A (I'm really dissappointed with they, especially the A6 version). Now I've started the 190D production (that came in 02/44 instead of 09/44, 40 r&d slot dedicated) and I've five Gruppe equipped with that model, we'll see...about night fighter, the only useful model are the Ju88 (with the Flensburgs, the only useful radar till now) no others; well, maybe the He212 are not bad at all, but their durability & range are sooooo bad...when they take off it's a Mosquito's Fest; what about 110G4? well, I don't know any word that can describe this garbage, but I think you all know this [:D] I don't build Ta154, too many engines required; any of you can tell how they fight?

PS. I know, my english is not the best, but be patient...and be careful reading this post, I'm not an expert player and this is my first pbem campaign; but this is what I think at the moment. Playing as Axis can be a bit frustrating, the Allied have too many planes, too too many planes [8D]

[Soldmaxim]

My win score calculation show that the 43 game must be won either before Gustav line breakthrough (end of May) as you loose industry points with captured factories in Central Italy before the front settles at Gothic line. Same with Normandy - if you haven't won it by end of July 44 - you loose too many industry before front settles at West Wall. I won the 43 game against the AI before twice just like that (with and without 152)/ The 44 game is tougher - you don't have the bad weather months to reequip and switching all production to 152 you will be doomed with P47/P51/p39L escorts from the start...
All my fighters were/are in bounce tactics (109/190D/152H - are BF and 190A/152C/262A - are BB) - I found it to be more pilots saving - and playing against the AI I always tried to save my own pilots lives...)
Same with NJ - in the early months of my 44 game I made many mistakes - like He219 and Ta 154... If I play it again I would first use/produce the Do-217N2 - same radar equipment as later planes + good firepower - it was doing the job right, then produce more 110G4R8 and later try to get 262B earlier - it is quite effective (but not to overestimate) and has reasonable range. Ju88G has superb range but lacks firepower - more damage than kills. I did not have engagement using Ju-338 so far - will post it when it takes place.
And all my NJ are in BB tactics.

[Soldmaxim]

ORIGINAL: cohimbra

ORIGINAL: Soldmaxim
skiing/ski touring in your wonderful Alto Adige area...

...it's not bad [:D]

BTR game and climbing/skitouring in areas like Pale di San Martino/Cevedale/Palla Bianca/Gran Paradiso brings extra feelings when you see passenger planes cruising above you... same with passing by historical airfields...

[Soldmaxim]

ORIGINAL: cohimbra

The 190A8/R8 are better in my opinion, not much, but better. I don't build Ta154, too many engines required; any of you can tell how they fight?
[8D]

At some point I realized that it is better to use unchanged 190A8 than all its R-versions. You don't use it against fighters, you add rockets and use it just like we all try to do it with 110-210-410. And of course you change all 190G and 190F to other model (using this "over 500" Me109 back and forth switch) - even 109G6 is better...
Ta-154 can fly for long and reaches patrol point fast but it is not better in spotting bombers and against Liberator VI it is not strong enough...

[Mehring]

ORIGINAL: cohimbra
And about useful planes (I'm involved in a pbem game, 03/44, 190/700 turn)...versus human player I found the 410A, 110G2 and 190F really useless; I mean, they certainly do thier job, but you don't see many unescorted raid (never), and versus heavy (when I saw heavy, I saw HEAVY) escorted raid they take horrible, horrible losses. No chance to fight versus alone bombers.

Yes there is, even vs human, but though you may not find a human sending unescorted raids, you can strip away the escorts with the right interceptors.

Unfortunately, while the direct and bounce options may impact on the game, the choice between fighter and bomber as target is a fiction. Fighters set to BF and to attack a specific fighter formation will almost invariably attack bombers if they are in the same area as their fighter target. I'd estimate the average at about 10 or even 15:1 bomber:escort attacks. This is why stripping a raid of escorts is so difficult. Early single engine interceptors will use their fuel and ammo attacking bombers, usually getting chewed up in the process, so when the twin engine destroyers arrive the escorts destroy them instead. I raised this with Harley and/or Hard Sarge years ago but they pretended the problem didn't exist.

The twin engine destroyers are essential vs an AI opponent while it sends in deep raids that end up unescorted. The destoyer units should get you your highest scoring aces. They will become very difficult to use successfully if there is a gap between the arrival of the longer range Thunderbolts/Mustang III/IV and your Ta152s. Because Ta 152s have such superb qualities, particularly range, they seem to use up more escort fuel than historical interceptors, keeping flying themselves while escorts return home sooner. To strip the raid of escorts, as each group heads for home you need to keep reassigning interceptors to "fresh" escort groups and, as I said above, intercepting incoming escort groups before they reach the bombers. It's hard and takes a lot of micromanagement but you CAN strip away escorts and leave bombers vulnerable to your ZGs.

Intercepting escorts with Ta's before they can arrive with the bombers is also a very good way to degrade the escorts. If you're shooting down 50-60 thunderbolts/Mustang IV a day, the escort groups may replace the planes but will soon run out of experienced pilots and the job just gets easier next time.

Against a human, if they want to keep their bombers less vulnerable to such tactics, to ensure an escort they will have to make significantly fewer raids and not attack deep into Germany, so you still win.

So for a relatively small investment in EFAC, no more than 10 a day, it's worth maintaining destroyer production, certainly up to spring 1944, then just use your pool until they're gone.

Fw190 A-5/6 are not going to do very well against any raid flying much above 20 000ft. They are the best early game option against medium bomber and FB raids, though, with enough hitting power to knock down Typhoons in quantity.

ORIGINAL: cohimbra
Same with NJ - in the early months of my 44 game I made many mistakes - like He219 and Ta 154... If I play it again I would first use/produce the Do-217N2 - same radar equipment as later planes + good firepower - it was doing the job right, then produce more 110G4R8 and later try to get 262B earlier - it is quite effective (but not to overestimate) and has reasonable range. Ju88G has superb range but lacks firepower - more damage than kills. I did not have engagement using Ju-338 so far - will post it when it takes place.
And all my NJ are in BB tactics... about night fighter, the only useful model are the Ju88 (with the Flensburgs, the only useful radar till now) no others; well, maybe the He212 are not bad at all, but their durability & range are sooooo bad...when they take off it's a Mosquito's Fest; what about 110G4? well, I don't know any word that can describe this garbage, but I think you all know this [:D] I don't build Ta154, too many engines required; any of you can tell how they fight?

Planes upgrade electronic equipment as the war progresses, I'm not sure if its hard wired to dates or triggered by arrival of new NF models.

All the NF have their place and can do plenty of damage used the right way at the right time in the war. Plenty of damage results will end up with bomber crashes, so it's all good!

Set the 110Gs and single engine NF to patrol above search lighted areas. There is stuff in the game you can't see and I don't understand exactly what makes it work/not work but when the city fires, clouds and relative altitudes of bombers and NF is right, you will suddenly get dozens of attacks. 110Gs have their place, don't write them off too early.

Ta154s are very good, but not enough to justify 4 engines IMO. All the Do, He and Ju are good, just base them according to their range and expected bomber streams. All should get plenty of kills with time. Some days you get loads of intercepts, others not, never understood how the game calculates it.