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OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 6:12:44 PM   
KenchiSulla


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Was it a SAM

295, Including several from my country, died because people will never learn. **** every single man or woman who attacks the innocent. Idiots...

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RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 6:36:20 PM   
CowboyRonin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Was it a SAM

295, Including several from my country, died because people will never learn. **** every single man or woman who attacks the innocent. Idiots...


SAM is the current story.

I think your last comment may be the most cogent. This certainly feels to me more like an act of stupidity than terrorism. Neither side has anything to gain by shooting down an airliner. However, there are likely a lot if SAM batteries in the area, and it just takes one idiot with launch authority to decide that a track is a hostile air transport, rather than an airliner, to cause a tragedy like this.

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
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RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 7:05:06 PM   
Terminus


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Terrible case of mistaken identity. A couple of Ukrainian air force transports have been shot down like this recently, and some SAM commander saw this radar track and thought he was looking at another one.

KAL 007, anyone?

< Message edited by Terminus -- 7/17/2014 8:05:38 PM >


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RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 7:07:00 PM   
Erkki


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BBC newsfeed:

19:00: A tweet (in Russian) from a key Twitter account used by pro-Russian separatists, in which they claim to have captured a Buk surface-to-air missile system, has now been deleted, BBC Monitoring observes. Ukrainians say the Malaysian plane could have been downed with a Buk, but pro-Russian rebels have now denied they have it

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RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 7:09:37 PM   
Terminus


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There's one thing which is absolutely certain right now. Nobody knows ANYTHING that they're telling the news media, and said news media are speculating until their ears droop.

But yeah, an SA-11 would definitely do it.

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RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 7:13:21 PM   
Terminus


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But if it were so, how did these seperatist militiamen fire this missile? It's not exactly an AK.

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RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 7:27:04 PM   
KenchiSulla


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As it is a warzone: I expect the truth to die together with the innocent...

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RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 7:30:39 PM   
CowboyRonin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

But if it were so, how did these seperatist militiamen fire this missile? It's not exactly an AK.


Which is why I think it is more likely that it was a a "mistaken identity" shoot than a militia shoot. Now, it's not impossible that some technically competent folks have defected to the separatists, especially since the pre-breakup folks would have been trained in Russia. However, that involves more assumptions, and I also don't see what they get by shooting down an airliner. If they really did it, they would have added significant support to Ukraine and the rest of the world would name them criminals and terrorists. Russia would have to distance themselves publicly, or face even more sanctions.

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RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 7:36:13 PM   
Terminus


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It was also mistaken identity if it were one of the separatist militias. Nobody has any interest in doing this.

< Message edited by Terminus -- 7/17/2014 8:43:40 PM >


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RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 7:38:55 PM   
Erkki


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Apparently one of the separatist leaders, Igor Strelkov, had tweeted something like "we told you to not enter out airspace" only minutes after the disappearance of the flight. That tweet is, unsurprisingly, now gone:

Also see https://twitter.com/StateOfUkraine/status/489802664264212480/photo/1

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RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 7:43:14 PM   
Terminus


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When it's celebrities and companies who don't understand how Twitter works, it's amusing. This has a somewhat different flavour.

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RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 7:44:43 PM   
Erkki


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And comments like these...

Lazy Glossophiliac @Glossophiliac75 · 3 t
@Rulamark @StateOfUkraine It might have been led into the war zone by a CIA op and then shot there by Ukrs. Cui bono points to that.

Lazy Glossophiliac @Glossophiliac75 · 3 t
@Rulamark @StateOfUkraine Donbass air space has been closed to civ aircraft for a while.

From Moscow with conspiracies. I wonder if she/he can make a living with that.

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Post #: 12
RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 7:49:49 PM   
Erkki


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RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 7:55:03 PM   
LoBaron


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

It was also mistaken identity if it were one of the separatist militias. Nobody has any interest in doing this.


How do you mistake an airliner cruising @ 30k for a potential military target? Vodka?

I am not so sure about this being an error.

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RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 7:57:58 PM   
Terminus


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Oh, the shooting was deliberate, no doubt. They just thought they were shooting at a Ukrainian military airplane.

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RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 8:02:45 PM   
Miller


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Everyone will blame everyone else. All down to Putin in the end (IMO).

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RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 8:08:02 PM   
LoBaron


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You could of course be right, bit I am still unconvinced the target selection was not deliberate.

None of the military transports were cruising @30k over the Donezk area. No plane with a military purpose in that area does. If they did not notice anything fishy about the target they were real morons.

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RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 8:29:33 PM   
Terminus


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Yes, the target selection was deliberate. AGAIN. It was a blip on a screen, looked at by a bunch of armed civilians.

It's happened before, many times. Remember the Vincennes? Or, as I stated earlier, KAL 007.

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RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 8:30:29 PM   
JeffK


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Who is the silly bugger routing Airliners over a combat zone???

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RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 8:52:38 PM   
KenchiSulla


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Press conference just held in the Netherlands. 45 nationality not yet established. At least 154 from the Netherlands, about two dozen from Malaysia and a mix of other European, North American and Asian countries

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RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 9:07:42 PM   
JeffK


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We are hearing 27 Australians.

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Post #: 21
RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 9:13:48 PM   
KenchiSulla


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Ok, they might be part of the 45 that were not yet released.. Think they are really trying to contact all the next of kin first. Ofcourse the only decent thing to do..

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AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivo

(in reply to JeffK)
Post #: 22
RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 9:31:50 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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https://ca.news.yahoo.com/sophisticated-surface-air-buk-missile-launcher-suspected-malaysian-205340310.html

"(...) the Buk's radar doesn't give its operator the same kind of information that air traffic radars provide, which could have led to rebels mistakenly targeting a civilian plane.
"The sophisticated air traffic radars that the Kyiv government have got and that the Russian government have got would pick up these civilian aircraft squawking all the time saying 'I'm a civilian,'" he said. "But something like a Buk missile launcher with its own battlefield radar would probably only pick up an aircraft and not pick up the fact it was a civilian aircraft."


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RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 11:14:34 PM   
btbw

 

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I hope no one from our forum dont flight here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuX6rEOjyqA
Here screen from russian tv channel LifeNews about downed by separatists AN-26.

Here speech of one russian politican (putin's creature for propaganda against Ukraine) which currently one of chief od separatists. He talking about repair captured SA-11.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxVZvh9YScU

Here SA-11 left Toresa city (where Boeing was crashed) after incident.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_WKydOzVWI

Enough info about

< Message edited by btbw -- 7/18/2014 12:14:57 AM >

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RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 11:19:03 PM   
btbw

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erkki

And comments like these...

Lazy Glossophiliac @Glossophiliac75 · 3 t
@Rulamark @StateOfUkraine It might have been led into the war zone by a CIA op and then shot there by Ukrs. Cui bono points to that.

Lazy Glossophiliac @Glossophiliac75 · 3 t
@Rulamark @StateOfUkraine Donbass air space has been closed to civ aircraft for a while.

From Moscow with conspiracies. I wonder if she/he can make a living with that.

Flight Zone around Donetzk dont closed for civil aircrafts with alt higher then 7800m. Boeing flown on 10000m.
Alot of planes passed that area befor and some after. Now they avoid area.

< Message edited by btbw -- 7/18/2014 12:19:33 AM >

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RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 11:22:15 PM   
btbw

 

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Flight zone dont closed. Separatists dont had SAM better then Stinger with alt up to 5000m. But SA-11 which captured and repaired by separatists (or swaped on new from Russia side) can strike any planes.

(in reply to JeffK)
Post #: 26
RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/17/2014 11:49:27 PM   
btbw

 

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Torez city
SA-11 in Torez city



< Message edited by btbw -- 7/18/2014 12:50:28 AM >

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Post #: 27
RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/18/2014 1:29:30 AM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Who is the silly bugger routing Airliners over a combat zone???



Is it "officially" considered a combat zone. Not speaking from a common sense POV (aka....OMG armed groups B Here) but from a geo-political stance. Has Ukraine issued warnings that it's airspace is contested to the point where advisories were issued to major airlines?




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RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/18/2014 1:39:02 AM   
wdolson

 

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From what I've heard most airlines who normally fly over the Ukraine have been diverting their flights. Apparently Malaysia Airlines decided not to do that.

This has been a difficult year for Malaysia Airlines 777 fleet.

Bill

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RE: OT: Another 295... - 7/18/2014 2:24:07 AM   
btbw

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

From what I've heard most airlines who normally fly over the Ukraine have been diverting their flights. Apparently Malaysia Airlines decided not to do that.

This has been a difficult year for Malaysia Airlines 777 fleet.

Bill

No restriction for flight over Donbass except air traffic service routine echelon higher then 7900m. All warning from FAA talking about Crimea area.
Before incident.

< Message edited by btbw -- 7/18/2014 4:13:54 AM >

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