Any information on Australian Army wanted??

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JeffroK
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Any information on Australian Army wanted??

Post by JeffroK »

I anyone looking for information about the Australian Army which would be stored at the Australian War Memorial??

My plans are to spend a few days there in August and am happy to dig out any extra info that WITPAEr's want.

Drop me a PM with your want list.

(For a small fee, payable in advance. No photocopies of currency accepted)
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Symon
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RE: Any information on Australian Army wanted??

Post by Symon »

I would encourage any modder who wants Australian Army info to glom all over this offer. This is where we get our TOE and OOB info. Our stuff is abstracted for the game context, so if a modder wants 'truth', please consult with JeffK.

An offer like this does not come along very often. If one doesn't take advantage of it ... well then.

Ciao. JWE
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LargeSlowTarget
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RE: Any information on Australian Army wanted??

Post by LargeSlowTarget »

OOB / TOE plus 41/12/07 locations of the "garrison brigades" - I have read that there were five such units guarding bases, forts etc.

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JeffroK
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RE: Any information on Australian Army wanted??

Post by JeffroK »

I have always struggled to find TO&E (W/e or War establishment in our talk), I'll add it to the shopping list.
My, and not official, thoughts are the w/e changed depending on the role and the areas being covered, they were manned by "older" soldiers and often had lower weapons establishments and, for example, had Lewis LMG instead of Bren LMG. I've heard of a parade being held where in the other ranks of the company were 2 Victoria Crosses and a couple of Military Medals, maybe not a pushover when the bullets started flying.

What I have at the moment:
1st Garrison Brigade
Dec 1941 Brisbane 1st & 15th Garrison Bns
2nd Garrison Brigade
14/12/41 Garrison Battalions called up for duty. 2nd and 20th Garrison Bns.
3rd Garrison Brigade
7/12/41 Melbourne/Queenscliffe/Pt Nepean
4th Garrison Brigade
Dec 41 Adelaide
5th Garrison Brigade
7/12/41 Perth WA
1st Garrison Battalion
7/12/41 Enoggera (Brisbane) 1st Garrison Brigade
det at Wallangara
January 1942 with 17 Officers & 897 men.
2nd Garrison Battalion.
7/12/41 1st Division Sydney
28/4/42 1st Army troops
6/5/42 1st Army troops. North Head Sydney.
30/9/43 Sydney Fortress Area North Head Sydney/Pt Kembla/Newcastle
3rd Garrison Battalion.
7/12/41 3rd Garrison Bde Fort Nepean (Port Phillip Bay)
4th Garrison Battalion.
7/12/41 4th Garrison Bde Adelaide
7/2/42 4th Garrison Brigade Adelaide (Internal Security)
March 1943 Battalion shrank to HQ & 2 Coys 16/523
5th Garrison Battalion.
7/12/41 5th Garrison Bde Swanbourne - Perth
6th Garrison Battalion.
7/12/41 Hobart
8/43 Reverted to nucleus with 4/50.
7th Garrison Battalion.
7/12/41 1st Division Sydney
6/5/42 9th Infantry Brigade Wallgrove
5/43 Cairns (Coast Defense)
Disbanded 14/8/43
8th Garrison Battalion.
7/12/41 Newcastle Covering Force
6/5/42 32nd Infantry Brigade New Lambton
9th Garrison Battalion.
7/12/41 3rd Garrison Bde Fort Queenscliffe (Port Phillip Bay)
30/9/43 9th Garrison Coy Coast Defense Queenscliffe
14/8/43 Reverted to 9th Garrison Company
10th Garrison Battalion.
7/12/41 5th Garrison Bde Rottnest Is - Perth
11th Garrison Battalion.
Sydney (Internal Security)
12th Garrison Battalion.?
13th Garrison Battalion.
7/12/41 1st Infantry Division Sydney
6/5/42 28th Infantry Brigade Pt Kembla
14th Garrison Battalion.
7/12/41 Enoggera (Brisbane) 1st Garrison Brigade
less 1 Coy and 1 MG Pl at Cowan and 1 Coy and 1 Pl at Bribie.
19/9/42 Torres Straits Force

14th Garrison Battalion was formed in Brisbane on 14th December 1941, on 30th May it had moved to Cairns and on 15th July 1942 shipped from Cairns and arrived at Thursday Island.

On 29/12/42 the Battalion was renamed 62nd Australian Infantry Battalion and moved to Merauke in Dutch New Guinea. It was the only Militia unit which served outside of Australian territory.

15th Garrison Battalion.
7/12/41 Townsville
January 1942 Rockhampton/Townsville /Cairns with 16/628
Yanco Internment camp.
16th Garrison Battalion.
Hay Internment Camp
18th Garrison Battalion
7/12/41 3rd Infantry Brigade Adelaide

19th Garrison Battalion.
7/12/41 Coy & MG Pl Albany, Coy & MG Pl Geraldton, Coy & MG Pl Busselton, Coy & MG Pl Bunbury.
20th Garrison Battalion.
7/12/41 Newcastle Covering Force
6/5/42 32nd Infantry Brigade Broughton Camp.
Disbanded 14/8/43
21st Garrison Battalion
Liverpool POW & Internment camps.
Jun3 1943 the Battalion became 21st Garrison Company with 10/172

22nd Garrison Battalion
.
Cowra POW Camp
23rd Garrison Battalion
Murchson POW Camp (North of Melbourne)
25th Garrison Battalion
Barmera. SA . POW Camp
9/43 Linked with 33rd Garrison Battalion to form 25/33rd Garrison Battalion.
30th Garrison Battalion.
Tasmania
6/4/43 Unit reverted to HQ Coy, 1 Coy with 3 platoons and 1 Coy with 2 platoons with 10/346
11/43 Unit further shrank to 1 Coy with 3/112
31st Garrison Battalion.
Formed 7/4/42 30/1019
Bolton Point nr Newcastle.
32nd Garrison Battalion.
4/5/42 Formed Brisbane
14/6/43 Battalion disbanded with its men moving to 1st Garrison Battalion.
33rd Garrison Battalion.
9/43 Linked with 25th Garrison Battalion to form 25/33rd Garrison Battalion
3rd Reserve Battalion.
7/12/41 Pt Lonsdale
5th Reserve Battalion.
7/12/41 Portsea
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JeffroK
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RE: Any information on Australian Army wanted??

Post by JeffroK »

LST, has someone stolen your boat????
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JeffroK
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RE: Any information on Australian Army wanted??

Post by JeffroK »

http://static.awm.gov.au/images/collect ... 7--15-.PDF - Pages 115 & 120

Info only on 5th Garrison Bde WA
AS AT 16/8/41
5 Garrison Bn 18 Officers & 420 men
10 Garrison Bn 17 Officers & 410 men
19 Garrison Bn 2 Officers & 9 men
"Y" Garrison Co 8 Officers & 303 men
"M" Internent Camp Co 8 Officers & 196 men
Total for 5th Garr Bde 57 Officers & 1349 men.


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Symon
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RE: Any information on Australian Army wanted??

Post by Symon »

I have just a simple question; more for my edification than anything else. !st Australian Armoured Division was established as an AIF formation. It had some cool stuff in it, but I wonder about the unit designations.

There's the 2/11th A/C Rgt, and 2/5, 2/6, 2/7, 2/8, 2/9, 2/10th Armored Rgts, etc.. . But there is no 1st AIF history for any of these units. Is the 2/ designation just some gratuitous thing grafted on to all 2nd AIF units by modern OOB weenies? I have not seen the 2/ designation in any official Australian documents relating to these units. I have looked long and hard and cannot find any antecedent units of the 1st AIF that would allow any of these units of the 2nd AIF to take their "colors".

I'm thinking of killing that 2/ thing, where appropriate. Would like your comments. Ciao JWE.
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JeffroK
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RE: Any information on Australian Army wanted??

Post by JeffroK »

The 2/- thing is integral to the history of the Second AIF.
http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/RCDIG1 ... play-image
Go to page 2, Oct 39 war diaries of 2/1st Australian Infantry Bn

This was done originally to define the units from both the 1st AIF and the extant units of the Militia.
There were also many rules and regulations concerning enlistment in the AIF (they didnt pay tax!) versus the Militia (Commonwealth Military Forces

As the Second World War included many unit types not existing in The Great War units such as Armoured, Anti Tank, Anti Aircraft, Independent Companies etc were also identified as 2/- to distinguish them from the Militia. )

For example 2/6th Armoured Regiment was AIF and 14th Armoured Regiment was Militia, 2/1st Australian Infantry Bn was AIF and 1st Australian Infantry Bn was Militia until enough men volunteered for overseas service when it would become 1st Australian Infantry Bn (AIF) Simples!

To end, its an integral and vitally important part of the unit name and shouldnt be removed, similar to identifying US Marine units.
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JeffroK
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RE: Any information on Australian Army wanted??

Post by JeffroK »

As an observation, the war diaries of the 2nd AIF units did not call themselves 2/-, this stopped after a while, maybe an order from on high.
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JeffroK
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RE: Any information on Australian Army wanted??

Post by JeffroK »

From the first volume of the officil history, TO BENGHAZI
http://static.awm.gov.au/images/collect ... 24--1-.PDF
page 21

A second problem was one which had faced the staff in 1914, namely
to organise a division in which quotas of all arms were provided by
each State. This was done by following closely the organisation of the
1st Division of the First A.I.F.
Thus the 16th Brigade, like the 1st Brigade
of 1914, was to consist of four battalions raised in N.S.W., the 2/1st, the
2/2nd, 2/3rd and 2/4th, the prefix 2/ distinguishing them from the 1st,
2nd, 3rd and 4th Battalions, which were among the N.S.W. battalions
of the militia and to which belonged the Battle Honours of the corres-
ponding units of the old A.I.F.

The 17th Brigade (2/5th, 2/6th, 2/7thand 2/8th Battalions) was to be recruited in Victoria.
In the 18th Brigade, the 2/9th Battalion and two companies of the 2/12th were to be
recruited in Queensland, the 2/10th in South Australia, the 2/11th in
Western Australia and the remainder of the 2/12th in Tasmania.

The recruiting of the reconnaissance regiment, the artillery and other arms
were allotted similarly among the States, an unwieldy procedure but one
which local sentiment demanded.

Where no corresponding unit existed in the First AIF the prefix 2 was not used at the outset,
e.g
. 1st Anti-Tk Regt, 1st AGH, 1st Anti-Aircraft Regt. Eventually, however, all AIF units
were prefixed by the 2 to avoid confusion with militia units.
The practice has generally been followed in this history of using the prefix with all AIF units which later came to be so known
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Symon
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RE: Any information on Australian Army wanted??

Post by Symon »

ORIGINAL: JeffK
To end, its an integral and vitally important part of the unit name and shouldnt be removed, similar to identifying US Marine units.
Thank you Jeff. Very nice explanation. I will keep them that way then.
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LargeSlowTarget
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RE: Any information on Australian Army wanted??

Post by LargeSlowTarget »

Thx Jeff for the Garrison info! Now I just need a few more empty LCU slots...
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JeffroK
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RE: Any information on Australian Army wanted??

Post by JeffroK »

What I did in the WITP days was kill off the Soviet Forces and make most of the Kwantung Army static, lots of room watsed on units very rarely used.

Anyone interested in a Western Command Reconnaissance Battalion TOE??? (Basically for 10 & 25 LH Rgts)
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Don Bowen
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RE: Any information on Australian Army wanted??

Post by Don Bowen »

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Anyone interested in a Western Command Reconnaissance Battalion TOE??? (Basically for 10 & 25 LH Rgts)

I certainly am! Also love to have some organizational information on the Mobile Works (became Airfield) construction squadrons.

Really appreciate this, THANKS!
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Symon
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RE: Any information on Australian Army wanted??

Post by Symon »

Me too .. totally! I have a lot of LH things already. We could do a trade. [:)]
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JeffroK
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RE: Any information on Australian Army wanted??

Post by JeffroK »

I'll have to chase the date, I think its from end Jan 1942, early Feb 1942.

W COMD RECCE BN

Regimental HQ. 10 Officers & 17 Other Ranks

HQ Squadron with HQ, MG Troop (4 Off & 40 OR's - 4 Machine Guns), AT Rifle Troop (2 Off & 17 OR's - 4 Boyes AT Rifles), Signal Troop (2 Off & 41 OR's), Mortar Platoon (3 Off & 17 OR's), Admin Group (8 Off & 31 OR) & M.T Group (1 Off & 32 OR).
Total 23 Officers & 182 Other Ranks

2 Squadrons each of 4 troops.

Squadron HQ 7 Off & 16 OR
4 x Troop HQ 2 Off & 6 OR
12 x Sabre & Rifle Sections 8 OR.
4 x LMG Section (1 LMG) 6 OR

Each Troop has 2 Off & 36 OR
Each Squadron has 15 Off & 160 OR

Each 15 Officers and 160 Other Ranks

1 Recce Company. 22 Officers and 156 Other Ranks

HQ Coy 5 Off & 21 OR

3 x Scout Platoons each with
Platoon HQ 2 Off & 2 OR
Armoured Recce Section 1 Off & 14 OR
2 Carrier Sections each with 1 Off & 8 OR
Each Scout Platoon has 5 Off & 32 OR
Infantry Platoon
Platoon HQ 2 Off & 6 ORs
4 x Infantry Sections each 8 ORs
Total for Inf Platoon is 2 Off & 39 ORs

Total for Recce Platoon 22 Off & 156 ORs

Total of 85 Officers and 675 Other Ranks

496 Horses incl Pack Animals

64 3/4 or 1 Ton Vehicles, 36 Motor cyles & 14 Carriers LP No 2 (Bren Carriers)

RHQ
13 x .455 Pistols
11 x .303 SMLE
2 x Machine Carbines

HQ SQN
34 x .455 Pistols
177 x .303 SMLE
5 x .303 LMG (Hochkiss or Bren)
10 x .55 Boyes AT Rifles
4 x .303 MMG (Vickers)
2 x 3" Mortars

EACH SQUADRON
15 x .455 Pistols
156 x .303 SMLE
4 x Machine carbine
4 x LMG (Hochkiss or Bren)
4 x .55 Boyes AT Rifles

RECCE COY
15 x .455 Pistol
163 x .303 SMLE
41 x LMG (Hochkiss or Bren)
10 x .55 Boyes AT Rifle
6 x 2" Mortar
4 x Machine Carbine
10 x Very Pistols

Apologies to the Sergeants, I think they are included as Officers, Blasphemy!!

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JeffroK
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RE: Any information on Australian Army wanted??

Post by JeffroK »

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Anyone interested in a Western Command Reconnaissance Battalion TOE??? (Basically for 10 & 25 LH Rgts)

I certainly am! Also love to have some organizational information on the Mobile Works (became Airfield) construction squadrons.

Really appreciate this, THANKS!

http://airpower.airforce.gov.au/Publica ... 9X7amOc7Fk

Download the PDF, I havent read it yet.
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oldman45
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RE: Any information on Australian Army wanted??

Post by oldman45 »

Without reading the whole document, thanks for sharing that Jeff, aren't these units (mobile works) already in the Babes data base?


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LargeSlowTarget
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RE: Any information on Australian Army wanted??

Post by LargeSlowTarget »

ORIGINAL: JeffK

What I did in the WITP days was kill off the Soviet Forces and make most of the Kwantung Army static, lots of room watsed on units very rarely used.

I have already thinned the Soviet Forces by removing sub-units and keeping the parent unit only. Am toying with the idea of concentrating the numerous post-1941 reinforcements into a few Corps-sized monster units, so the forces will still be available for action in case of a Russian activation, but taking much less space.
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Symon
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RE: Any information on Australian Army wanted??

Post by Symon »

Hi Jeff. Promised to trade, so here's part 1. This is WE 1/1933/4/1. It was good up to 1939 when some of the LH (urban) regiments started recruiting Lt A/C troops because there weren't enough horses to go around, and city boys couldn't ride them anyway. That will be part 2. Then, in '40/'41 some of the (urban) LH got converted to mechanized (truck) MG units. That will be part 3. And eventually, them that didn't get converted to Recce/Tank/Armour units became Motor Rgts. That will be part 4.

Some of them (10th LH), as you rightly point out, remained mounted to a degree. I thank you very much for that TO&E. It is very interesting because it follows the internal structure of the early war LH organization, with the gloss of mechanization. [Morrison, J.C., Mechanizing an Army, Land Warfare Studies Centre, 2007, Duntroon].

Thank you again. Here it is. All errors and omissions are mine.

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