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Kill Leader - 6/27/2014 6:12:20 PM   
Saper222


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Hi! I lost more than 25 Leaders in 2/18/1943 and 90% after 1-2 bombing HQ. Interesting, how many reloads needed to this? Maybe who know?




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RE: Kill Leader - 6/27/2014 7:32:04 PM   
Marquo


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Is this a real game you are playing? Is so, let me guess: nonserver. WITE needs desperately needs PBEM protection like Case Blue or ACW.

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RE: Kill Leader - 6/27/2014 7:50:18 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Is this a real game you are playing? Is so, let me guess: nonserver. WITE needs desperately needs PBEM protection like Case Blue or ACW.


I'd suspect its his game with MKTours, if so they won't have any agreement about HQ bombing etc. Probably best seen as the WiTE equivalent of consensual S*M - great fun for the participants but a wee bit unwatchable for everyone else?

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RE: Kill Leader - 6/27/2014 8:04:20 PM   
Flaviusx


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Yet another example of the failure of our on demand air system, imo. You can certainly drive the numbers up without any cheating whatsoever if you make it a point to target each and every HQ you see every turn with a strike or two. After a while the losses will add up. 25 leaders dead over 20 months? Not at all inconceivable. That's one dead general every 3 or 4 game turns. A couple of dozen HQ airstrikes each and every turn may well yeild dead leaders at such a rate without reloads. It's a pure numbers game.

We shouldn't have this degree of precision control with airpower; it creates this and many other problems.



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RE: Kill Leader - 6/27/2014 8:20:41 PM   
charlie0311

 

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my fav is sov gens kia with no combat or recon within 150 miles. Trapped in pocket maybe then KIA for gen, otherwise never.

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RE: Kill Leader - 6/27/2014 8:35:28 PM   
morvael


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Yet nobody even comes close to my achievement of killing Zhukov on 22nd June 1941 when playing as the Soviets.

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RE: Kill Leader - 6/27/2014 9:58:20 PM   
Marquo


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Flav,

I read the post to indicate 25 leaders killed in one turn...could be wrong but still; I have bombed HQs until my fingers ached and never was able to kill leaders in but one pass.


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RE: Kill Leader - 6/27/2014 10:07:33 PM   
STEF78


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25 leaders killed is a strong perfomance.

See beloww the results of my game asainst Schascha (server game, turn 100). Schascha was bombing HQ each turn


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RE: Kill Leader - 6/27/2014 10:13:35 PM   
Flaviusx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Flav,

I read the post to indicate 25 leaders killed in one turn...could be wrong but still; I have bombed HQs until my fingers ached and never was able to kill leaders in but one pass.




If this happened all in one turn...then, yeah, that's something else entirely.

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RE: Kill Leader - 6/28/2014 1:43:17 AM   
Oshawott

 

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quote:

I have bombed HQs until my fingers ached and never was able to kill leaders in but one pass.


This is my experience. I have played numerous games now and I was only ever able to kill one leader. Am I missing a secret?

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RE: Kill Leader - 6/28/2014 1:51:28 AM   
carlkay58

 

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I lost seven German leaders in a single turn - including Model, Guderian, Runstendt, and some more of the better generals on turn 3 or 4. I could not blame it on redos however as I was playing the AI. Everyone knows it cheats!

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RE: Kill Leader - 6/28/2014 1:58:02 AM   
Flaviusx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oshawott

quote:

I have bombed HQs until my fingers ached and never was able to kill leaders in but one pass.


This is my experience. I have played numerous games now and I was only ever able to kill one leader. Am I missing a secret?


There are ways to reduce the chances of a kill as a defender. If the other side is doing everything they can in this regard, then you won't have much success. The Soviet is in a better position here to increase security than the Axis because they can generate as many SUs as they want and load up HQs (one way to reduce the chance of a leader kill.)

But I think this entire metagame on leadership security is kinda dumb and reflective of poor design. It's sheer gaminess on both sides. On the one hand, gaming the air system, and on the other, gaming SU production. My own view is that both these things need to be taken out of the game entirely and not really affect leadership losses. I'd simplify it to a very low probability per turn event (on the order of 1%, and make it a global check not against individual HQ, the leader selected for loss is determined after passing the global check.) The players would then have zero ability to influence this. It just happens, or not -- and no more than once per turn. Over the course of a full game you might lose a few guys this way, single digits.

The only thing I'd leave in place is leadership losses due to HQ displacement. That the players can still make happen through their efforts.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 6/28/2014 3:06:37 AM >


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RE: Kill Leader - 6/28/2014 2:46:47 AM   
Saper222


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This is PBEM game. I like bombing HQ - nice used for tactical bomber and nice tactik against Soviet armaments productions after 1 turn, but without HQ desplacement I kill only 3 Soviet Leaders. I reloads one time more than 10 loads - no effect to kill leader.
Soviet start bombing my HQ only after blizzard (88 turn on game).

< Message edited by Saper222 -- 6/28/2014 3:48:23 AM >

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RE: Kill Leader - 6/28/2014 7:34:27 AM   
mktours

 

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Saper,
I remembered I killed Manstain and Weiss in Pockets. And you included those lost in logistic phase.
We bombed HQs equally, please see my loss list( I told you that you also killed 3 leaders with 7 rating, perhaps you misunderstood as only 3 leaders, there were more). My HQ always stacked with airbase while you always never stacking your HQ with airbase and often you placed your HQ on the first hex to support next turn attack.
I started bombing your HQ in T25, then it is 60 turns (most of the bombing killings were your panzer HQs which deep into my land and without air protections, also, most of time there are 8-10 bombing on one HQ, not 1 or 2 as you said). You bombed my HQ from T1, but my HQ are stacking with airbase (full of fighters) and I put many SUs to HQ to protect general (there were many times you killed 4000 men and 200 guns in one bombing but my general survived).
We could stop bombing HQ from now on, if you like. If you want to stop the game, no problem (although I think I am going to win it, I could accept draw).




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< Message edited by mktours -- 6/28/2014 10:28:11 AM >

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RE: Kill Leader - 6/28/2014 7:44:01 AM   
mktours

 

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Mark,
it is 88 turn loss. How could you guess it is one turn? Amazing.
Interesting, I remembered I didn't kill a single general in our game.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Flav,

I read the post to indicate 25 leaders killed in one turn...could be wrong but still; I have bombed HQs until my fingers ached and never was able to kill leaders in but one pass.




< Message edited by mktours -- 6/28/2014 8:51:03 AM >

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RE: Kill Leader - 6/28/2014 7:55:26 AM   
mktours

 

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This is a typical situation (T87) why your leader were killed. It is not a good idea to put HQ on the first hex, although it is in good position to support next turn hasty attack.





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< Message edited by mktours -- 6/28/2014 8:57:47 AM >

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RE: Kill Leader - 6/28/2014 8:56:03 AM   
morvael


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The real question is wheter you have HQs stuffed with SUs or not. More elements help to save leader life. That is after distance to enemy. Next hex is very dangerous. 3+ is better.

< Message edited by morvael -- 6/28/2014 9:58:34 AM >

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RE: Kill Leader - 6/28/2014 9:10:24 AM   
mktours

 

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I agreed, there were many times Saper killed more than 3000 men in one bombing (the HQ is stacking with an airbase full of my best morale fighters), often Zhukov is the leader, he survived.
quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

The real question is wheter you have HQs stuffed with SUs or not. More elements help to save leader life. That is after distance to enemy. Next hex is very dangerous. 3+ is better.



< Message edited by mktours -- 6/28/2014 10:12:26 AM >

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RE: Kill Leader - 6/28/2014 10:32:25 AM   
morvael


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For leader attrition (during logistics phase) range is important. For bombing only the number of elements in the HQ and attached units. I admit there can be now a greater chance of leader loss, now that supply dumps are not so numerous because the bug with units resupplying without using supply dumps was fixed. Keep some construction units and sappers at all levels of the HQ chain.

edit: it seems some armored elements are also good for protection (no doubt the general dives under a tank)

< Message edited by morvael -- 6/28/2014 11:35:10 AM >

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RE: Kill Leader - 6/28/2014 11:42:42 AM   
Flaviusx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

The real question is wheter you have HQs stuffed with SUs or not. More elements help to save leader life. That is after distance to enemy. Next hex is very dangerous. 3+ is better.


That's the way it works. The question, it seems to me, is why we put up with this silliness? I refer you to my suggestion above.

This is the kind of micromanagement and tedium which drives me crazy about this game. I think it's poor design, a gotcha mechanic, highly obscure and subject to gaminess. It doesn't really add anything to the experience. Quite simply, high leadership losses shouldn't happen, period, except as a result of actual HQ displacement.

Let's simplify this and cut to the chase. WitE has way too many gotcha mechanics of this nature that allow for absurdities.

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RE: Kill Leader - 6/28/2014 2:16:59 PM   
rrbill

 

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Agree w/Flaviusx that absurdities do occur (this an example) but in all my Axis vs. AI experience I get very reasonable results this issue. Am careful to keep HQs in guarded locations and to have as much air defense around as seems reasonable.

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RE: Kill Leader - 6/28/2014 8:43:07 PM   
Marquo


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MK,

Not guessing nor amazing, rather reading what was posted, "I lost more than 25 Leaders in 2/18/1943 and 90% after 1-2 bombing HQ." Grammatically this implies that all of the 25 leaders were killed in or during the 2/18/1943 turn. Had the post read, "I lost more than 25 Leaders by or up to 2/18/1943 and 90% after 1-2 bombing HQ." then the meaning would have been different and not at all ambiguous.

Cheers,

Marquo





quote:



Mark,
it is 88 turn loss. How could you guess it is one turn? Amazing.
Interesting, I remembered I didn't kill a single general in our game.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Flav,

I read the post to indicate 25 leaders killed in one turn...could be wrong but still; I have bombed HQs until my fingers ached and never was able to kill leaders in but one pass.




quote:

! I lost more than 25 Leaders in 2/18/1943 and 90% after 1-2 bombing HQ. Interesting, how many reloads needed to this? Maybe who know?





< Message edited by Marquo -- 6/28/2014 9:44:29 PM >

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RE: Kill Leader - 7/21/2014 8:56:17 AM   
Saper222


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Thanks for comment.
I used one time 30 reloads to bombinq HQ and not killed leader. One time used 5 reloads and kill leaders.
I see, that I kill more, than 20 Soviet leaders and was surprise for me - I see only 5-6 messages about this.

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RE: Kill Leader - 7/21/2014 5:11:56 PM   
beekeeper

 

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this old bug, no reloads

i see it and write report +save in 2011 ;)

after 1 bombing any hq on map - 100% killed leader

if you want - you can doing it over and over

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2905728 - this tread



< Message edited by beekeeper -- 7/21/2014 6:27:55 PM >

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RE: Kill Leader - 7/21/2014 6:19:50 PM   
morvael


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So how to repeat that?

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RE: Kill Leader - 7/21/2014 7:56:33 PM   
beekeeper

 

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> So how to repeat that?

doing next attack =)

on this turn ALL hq bombing will kill for 1-4 leader

< Message edited by beekeeper -- 7/21/2014 9:00:52 PM >

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RE: Kill Leader - 7/21/2014 8:07:07 PM   
morvael


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If it's directly related to air attacks on HQ units then it should be severely limited in 1.08.

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RE: Kill Leader - 7/21/2014 8:37:48 PM   
beekeeper

 

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im and mike play with the absence of bombings hq at all 3 years

< Message edited by beekeeper -- 7/21/2014 9:37:56 PM >

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RE: Kill Leader - 7/22/2014 2:35:48 AM   
Oshawott

 

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I don't understand what these two players are talking about. I can bomb HQs as much as I want as German and no Russian leaders are killed.

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