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Stardrive Community Divide - 6/21/2014 2:02:52 PM   
Icemania


Posts: 1833
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
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Hey All:

I post mainly on the Distant Worlds Forums, but if you want some entertainment resulting from excessive Moderation, read here:

Stardrive Continued

Makes you realise how lucky we are here!

Regards,
Icemania

< Message edited by Icemania -- 6/21/2014 3:05:21 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Stardrive Community Divide - 6/21/2014 2:26:49 PM   
UPUAUT

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 12/4/2011
Status: offline
The Dev of SD won´t see any money from me again after leaving SD in it´s current (for me unfinished) state. Long live Distant worlds.

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 2
RE: Stardrive Community Divide - 6/21/2014 4:24:16 PM   
pycco

 

Posts: 345
Joined: 5/28/2013
From: United States of America
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UPUAUT

The Dev of SD won´t see any money from me again after leaving SD in it´s current (for me unfinished) state. Long live Distant worlds.


same here, it is so unethical to abandon a project half way through then make a new game with the money you made.

(in reply to UPUAUT)
Post #: 3
RE: Stardrive Community Divide - 6/21/2014 5:07:20 PM   
MikeSF

 

Posts: 35
Joined: 6/1/2014
Status: offline
Entertainment? Nah. More like not being able to let it go. The whole letting people know about his business practices bit I can understand, however a lot of that borderline stalker like obsession. Posting here to push people there, then posting again on the Distant Worlds forum to bring people here which goes back to Steam forums. Probably will live a lot longer if you stay angry for a shorter time.

I liked StarDrive, really only saw a few problems with it as a game, one of which was how ground invasions worked. And I'm not sure why people are so upset, but it felt like a finished game with some game play mechanics/bugs that every game has. The fact he didn't fix all of them might be upsetting to some sure, but not enough for me to hate the guy with this level of fury.

Hell if anything StarDrive is the reason I picked up a copy of DW:U, I never knew about real-time 4x games, in fact the concept was so foreign to me that I thought I would hate it, then I grew to like it quite a bit having fluid movement from one instance to the next seemed like the way it should be done, with pausing for thinking of course. Now StarDrive 2 seems to go back to a turn based system, which I don't care too much for anymore, so I probably won't be getting it.

Remember this is one guy making a game, not a whole game company, developers can be a bit brash and quick to react to critique... for the best example of this look at Phil Fish :)


(in reply to pycco)
Post #: 4
RE: Stardrive Community Divide - 6/21/2014 5:15:56 PM   
Qwixt


Posts: 901
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline
What stopped me from getting the game is that some player named crunchy seemed to do more bug fixes and patching via mods than the actual developer. It doesn't sound like Stardrive is a complete game, and I couldn't care less about the drama over the multiplayer junk. It's very hard to get a feel for the game with all the whining on forums, but it seems to be a bit buggy and incomplete game with poor AI. Now that I own DW, there is no real point to picking this game up unless it gets real cheap.

(in reply to MikeSF)
Post #: 5
RE: Stardrive Community Divide - 6/22/2014 8:55:58 AM   
Icemania


Posts: 1833
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeSF
Entertainment? Nah. More like not being able to let it go. The whole letting people know about his business practices bit I can understand, however a lot of that borderline stalker like obsession. Posting here to push people there, then posting again on the Distant Worlds forum to bring people here which goes back to Steam forums. Probably will live a lot longer if you stay angry for a shorter time.

I liked StarDrive, really only saw a few problems with it as a game, one of which was how ground invasions worked. And I'm not sure why people are so upset, but it felt like a finished game with some game play mechanics/bugs that every game has. The fact he didn't fix all of them might be upsetting to some sure, but not enough for me to hate the guy with this level of fury.

Hell if anything StarDrive is the reason I picked up a copy of DW:U, I never knew about real-time 4x games, in fact the concept was so foreign to me that I thought I would hate it, then I grew to like it quite a bit having fluid movement from one instance to the next seemed like the way it should be done, with pausing for thinking of course. Now StarDrive 2 seems to go back to a turn based system, which I don't care too much for anymore, so I probably won't be getting it.

Remember this is one guy making a game, not a whole game company, developers can be a bit brash and quick to react to critique... for the best example of this look at Phil Fish :)

For some that maybe true. But in my case, I'm not angry at all. I only bought Stardrive recently and only got banned a day or two ago, after trying to help repair the divide ... read Icemania Sequence of Posts. We even had one or two people on both sides apologise before Zero wiped it all out.

Since so much has been deleted from the forums the intent is just so people know the full story. That's it.

Distant Worlds is one guy as well and there is a significant contrast in how both Moderation and Patching are managed.



< Message edited by Icemania -- 6/22/2014 10:10:13 AM >

(in reply to MikeSF)
Post #: 6
RE: Stardrive Community Divide - 6/22/2014 4:00:04 PM   
Tormodino

 

Posts: 107
Joined: 3/27/2010
Status: offline
Slight rant incoming!

I wanna derail this a tiny bit to say that strategy gamers are far too concerned with the idea of what these games should be.
Most of us, I assume, are looking for some broadly scoped sandbox with sufficiently interesting tools and a competent AI that allows us to build our little power fantasies.
Zero, for all the sillyness going on there, is building 4x products. The social element is not actually a part of the product itself. That is a function of the community. Being hard done by when you attempt to build and improve said community is annoying as all hell, but the fact that Stardrive is a boring and functional product where too much was promised is not actually cause for the amount of grief being poured out on those boards,
The shoe fits. I do the same thing here by bitching about wanting all manner of features and changes to Distant Worlds, but this is a calmer crowd talking about a better product where the developers are not antagonistic because people want their blood. The roof is taller and the glasshouse is less fragile.

What has stuck with me after many years testing out many products like Stardrive is a sense of disappointment. The 4x genre has a common theme of not developing and building on the core ideas to create a solid finalized product that can stand the test of time without inviting negative comparisons. The only 4x games I know that have really worked their model to near perfection is the original Master of Orion (a towering achievement in game design), Moo2 and Sword of the Stars numero uno. GalCiv2 should probably be added, but personally I find that game to be bland to the point of being uninteresting. Stars and other more hardcore products could also bementioned, but many people haven't played these so beyond reference they don't really apply any longer.
Perhaps this is a quite artificial limitation stemming from the less social nature of the games and the people who enjoy them?

I don't know how far I should go with this, but I would suggest that the communitys projected desire to have developers deliver their dream product, and the devs always falling short of this unrealistic goal (it's not possible to tickle everyone the same way)cause a very high stress environment that can bring people into a conflict over what they wanted, rather than what is actually there.
4x developers are often far more limited in their vision than is immediately apparent, simply because the scope of the genre is promoted as "unlimited". Every 4x is a management sim at heart. In most cases, the community sees it differently, developer failures notwithstanding.

The often solitary nature of developing and playing these simulations often create, and stem from, personal expectations that can not realistically be completely fulfilled. Armchair generals always want the finest armies to play with, and "smart" gamers often fall into arguments that are every bit as silly as those taking place on the Dota2 forums. The games are what they are, and having purchased Legend of Pegasus I feel vindicated in saying these things :D

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 7
RE: Stardrive Community Divide - 6/22/2014 7:13:31 PM   
DevildogFF


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Hmm, I wish this would all just stop.

Is Stardrive great? No, probably not. Did it have the potential? Hell yes.

Is it complete? Well, it's playable from start to finish, but it could have been so much more.

However, his reasoning for moving on (game built on a ****ty, outdated engine and running out of "tricks" to make things work) made sense to me, despite everything I didn't agree with.

I think Dan is just tired of it all. He's actually a pretty good guy. But he's just ONE guy. He doesn't have an Erik Rutins to help with the PR stuff and occasionally he has made some PR blunders.

Ice, I've always respected you and still do. I just don't think this really matters any more and I consider it "beneath" you. I understand offering it up here as an example of "what not to do", but keep in mind that this guy has never had the intermediary between him and the public like Elliot does.

(in reply to Tormodino)
Post #: 8
RE: Stardrive Community Divide - 6/22/2014 8:33:35 PM   
Tormodino

 

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That is a really good way of putting it, Devildog. I regret overthinking it so much now.

(in reply to DevildogFF)
Post #: 9
RE: Stardrive Community Divide - 6/22/2014 11:43:17 PM   
Icemania


Posts: 1833
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline
Like any forum, Stardrive Continued represents a diverse range of views. For my part, on the technical aspects of Stardrive, I fully agree with what you have written.

However, with respect to Moderation, I first posted on Stardrive in March in an effort to bring the heavily divided Stardrive community together. As you may remember DevildogFF, you and many others supported that post. Zero’s response was to delete it from the Steam Stardrive Forum.

I kept a low profile for some time after that.

What changed my involvement was less than a fortnight ago. While I was lurking some users were banned permanently, the threads and all the contents (from various posters) were deleted, and their entire existence (every single post … in some cases > 100) was erased. Some of those posters clearly had not broken any forum rule by any interpretation, Methos_723 in particular. I also supported the ban of those that broke forum rules like Werewolf.

That was not the first time I had watched this behaviour. This time I decided to get involved and both challenge the unreasonable actions taken and again call for efforts to bring the community together. I made a call on both forums for apologies. To their credit, after some robust discussion, buddymcleod and Crunchy Gremlin led the way and both shared some pretty open apologies … certainly more than what I had expected. Zero’s response to that was to delete that thread entirely and introduce new rules. On my next post I was banned permanently and my entire existence was deleted from the forum.

Now I state this as a fact only … the date of this was June 19th. This is the exact same day as the start of the Steam Summer Sale.

It’s not visible behind a keyboard but the best way to describe my response to all this is amusement and sadness that Zero continues to shoot himself in the foot. I’m still interested in the future of Stardrive. However, I also don’t consider the appropriate response to do nothing.

Here at Matrix Games we can have a good discussion, shake hands and agree to disagree. We could also do that at Stardrive Continued. However, if this was the Steam Stardrive Forum, if I wasn’t already banned (for the first time in 15 years of posting by the way) I would most surely be banned and my entire existence erased. This is why I’m involved.

I accept and indeed strongly support your comment that Zero needs help with PR.


< Message edited by Icemania -- 6/23/2014 12:48:37 AM >

(in reply to Tormodino)
Post #: 10
RE: Stardrive Community Divide - 6/22/2014 11:46:21 PM   
Icemania


Posts: 1833
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline
Just to add, happy to PM anytime.

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 11
RE: Stardrive Community Divide - 6/23/2014 12:24:58 AM   
DevildogFF


Posts: 92
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Wow, I just caught up on all of that. As an official moderator of the Stardrive forums, I don't want to say too much, but you've always seemed very reasonable and well-spoken so I'm pretty baffled by your ban.

I'll look in to it.

From the outside, and as unbiased as I can be, this doesn't seem right. Methinks it's about time that Zero hired someone to do the talking for him...

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 12
RE: Stardrive Community Divide - 6/23/2014 11:46:32 AM   
Anguille


Posts: 628
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Hyper-cruiser "Phantom"
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How much sh*tstorm can one guy take?

This is really getting out of hand...ok, there's no MP and he probably should have waited a little more before launching the second game but the sh*tstorm he's facing is just ridiculous. Zero's reaction is obviously wrong and he should indeed stop looking at the forums himself for a while.

I am one of the guys who funded the game at the beginning. Haven't played it much yet cos my laptop couldn't handle it and haven't had time to play it since i have my new desktop, just played a little bit so far and i haven't seen big problems...

I will get Stardrive 2 as well...

< Message edited by Anguille -- 6/23/2014 12:53:13 PM >


_____________________________


(in reply to DevildogFF)
Post #: 13
RE: Stardrive Community Divide - 6/24/2014 7:18:59 AM   
kafka

 

Posts: 155
Joined: 6/11/2004
Status: offline
quote:

This is really getting out of hand...


yep, at first I found this kind of obsession ridicolous and thought all people involved would some time soon come to reason, but in the meantime it's really got out of control, it's scary to see how easily some people develop some sort of paranoid mindset. I wonder now when this djihad will end ....

anyway, another reason to get SD2

(in reply to Anguille)
Post #: 14
RE: Stardrive Community Divide - 6/24/2014 10:08:17 AM   
Icemania


Posts: 1833
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kafka
I wonder now when this djihad will end ....

You may be surprised to know that many people on both sides of the discussion share that sentiment.

If Zero had left the community interface to the existing Moderation team, or Iceberg, a large component of this would have been over a long time ago. As an example I've only been active for a fortnight or so and probably would never had got involved with this in place. Unfortunately, unreasonable bans and erasures on the eve of Steam Sales don't exactly help, they create new activists.

I would not be surprised if the Stardrive 2 launch was even more problematic but I still consider the situation recoverable if changes are made.

(in reply to kafka)
Post #: 15
RE: Stardrive Community Divide - 6/24/2014 1:37:15 PM   
DevildogFF


Posts: 92
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Ice, I can't say too much, but I can guarantee that the second installment will be a much smoother and better game. He's really taking his time with it and from what I've seen (again, can't say too much more just yet), it's shaping up to leave the first one in its dust.

It's really light-years ahead of the first one, pardon the pun.

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 16
RE: Stardrive Community Divide - 6/24/2014 1:42:29 PM   
Icemania


Posts: 1833
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline
Glad to hear it DevildogFF!

(in reply to DevildogFF)
Post #: 17
RE: Stardrive Community Divide - 6/24/2014 1:47:08 PM   
DevildogFF


Posts: 92
Joined: 12/8/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kafka

quote:

This is really getting out of hand...


yep, at first I found this kind of obsession ridicolous and thought all people involved would some time soon come to reason, but in the meantime it's really got out of control, it's scary to see how easily some people develop some sort of paranoid mindset. I wonder now when this djihad will end ....

anyway, another reason to get SD2


100% agreed. A very vocal minority that are just completely out of control.

And honestly, Dan has had enough. I can't blame him.

I think Ice just got lumped in because Dan's patience with that "group" doesn't exist any more. I know Ice to be level-headed and mature, but I think it's a rational voice drowned out by a lot of idiots that have acted poorly in the past (life threats, personal attacks) that are pretending to be victims here, now that the past posts have been deleted.

I'm over it.

< Message edited by DevildogFF -- 6/24/2014 2:49:36 PM >

(in reply to kafka)
Post #: 18
RE: Stardrive Community Divide - 6/24/2014 2:46:09 PM   
Icemania


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From: Australia
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All the more reason to ask Iceberg for PR support DevildogFF. Methos was also banned and erased unfairly as well, so I'm hardly a one off, and that is just in the last fortnight.

(in reply to DevildogFF)
Post #: 19
RE: Stardrive Community Divide - 6/24/2014 5:15:00 PM   
StarForged

 

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Joined: 6/24/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania



I post mainly on the Distant Worlds Forums, but if you want some entertainment resulting from excessive Moderation, read here:



Mate. I had to come out of my lurker status to post this; full rant incoming. That forum you posted is full of nutters. I followed the stardrive reddit cockup when it happened, and I've lurked in the forums since. It baffles the mind to see some of the same names more than a year later still acting like crazy people for whatever perceived injustice they've suffered at the hands of the stardrive developers.

Stardrive wasn't great but it was good. It was worth the 15 quid I paid and based on what I've seen from Stardrive 2, that will be worth my 15 quid as well. Personally, I can't imagine being so sore over a game purchase that I'd be trying to drum up a lynch mob more than a year after it came out. And that seems like what you're trying to do here and it frankly baffles.

What I want is to play more good 4x games. I'd rather make it easier for developers to do that - not harder. And if the price for failing to deliver every promised feature on a game is a year long crusade to topple the developers (or isn't it just one bloke?) then why the hell would people make these games? This self-righteous tosh just pisses me off. If you don't like the game then don't play it. If you don't like a developer then don't buy their games. This culture of outrage in games is juvenile and in the end I think it harms gamers more than helps them.



(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 20
RE: Stardrive Community Divide - 6/24/2014 7:21:53 PM   
DevildogFF


Posts: 92
Joined: 12/8/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StarForged


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania



I post mainly on the Distant Worlds Forums, but if you want some entertainment resulting from excessive Moderation, read here:



Mate. I had to come out of my lurker status to post this; full rant incoming. That forum you posted is full of nutters. I followed the stardrive reddit cockup when it happened, and I've lurked in the forums since. It baffles the mind to see some of the same names more than a year later still acting like crazy people for whatever perceived injustice they've suffered at the hands of the stardrive developers.

Stardrive wasn't great but it was good. It was worth the 15 quid I paid and based on what I've seen from Stardrive 2, that will be worth my 15 quid as well. Personally, I can't imagine being so sore over a game purchase that I'd be trying to drum up a lynch mob more than a year after it came out. And that seems like what you're trying to do here and it frankly baffles.

What I want is to play more good 4x games. I'd rather make it easier for developers to do that - not harder. And if the price for failing to deliver every promised feature on a game is a year long crusade to topple the developers (or isn't it just one bloke?) then why the hell would people make these games? This self-righteous tosh just pisses me off. If you don't like the game then don't play it. If you don't like a developer then don't buy their games. This culture of outrage in games is juvenile and in the end I think it harms gamers more than helps them.





Edit: re-read this post and 100% DO NOT AGREE that Ice was trying to drum up a lynch mob here.

I do agree that the board is full of nutters who are unable to let go of some perceived injustice, when most of them have done incredibly egregious things.




< Message edited by DevildogFF -- 6/25/2014 3:43:35 PM >

(in reply to StarForged)
Post #: 21
RE: Stardrive Community Divide - 6/24/2014 11:37:02 PM   
shunwick


Posts: 2177
Joined: 10/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StarForged


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania



I post mainly on the Distant Worlds Forums, but if you want some entertainment resulting from excessive Moderation, read here:


...

Personally, I can't imagine being so sore over a game purchase that I'd be trying to drum up a lynch mob more than a year after it came out. And that seems like what you're trying to do here and it frankly baffles.

...


I had no intention of getting involved in this absurd mess but I really don't think Icemania is trying to drum up a lynch mob.

Best wishes,
Steve

< Message edited by shunwick -- 6/25/2014 12:37:48 AM >


_____________________________

I love the smell of TOAW in the morning...

(in reply to StarForged)
Post #: 22
RE: Stardrive Community Divide - 6/25/2014 4:15:56 AM   
Icemania


Posts: 1833
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline
StarForged:

Like all forums Stardrive Continued contains a variety of views. A number of members, like myself, are posters that take a middle ground, both positive (the Doc's Stardrive Extended Mod looks very promising) and critical. Many of us in the middle ground cannot post (or cannot post openly) on the official forums because we’ve been deleted or banned.

It’s naïve to think that this situation will end without change. The Stardrive Continued forum has grown a lot in the mere 3 months it has been in existence. All sorts of people will come out of the woodwork when Stardrive 2 gets to release. The change that I’ve been proposing consistently is for the community to be managed by someone other than Zero. Zero can simply focus on developing a great game and making more patches. The ideal outcome is a better community and better game and even though I’ve been banned and deleted, I still don’t want any other outcome.

In short, I have no idea how you could read my posts and could come to such ridiculous conclusions e.g. lynch mobs. I’m even more astonished that DevildogFF agreed with it as it has no relevance to my position or the reasons why I posted a link to Stardrive Continued. If you are interested in the views of those of us in the middle ground, you simply can’t read them on the Steam Stardrive forums.

Now with that said, welcome to the forums!

< Message edited by Icemania -- 6/25/2014 5:18:22 AM >

(in reply to shunwick)
Post #: 23
RE: Stardrive Community Divide - 6/25/2014 2:40:38 PM   
DevildogFF


Posts: 92
Joined: 12/8/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

StarForged:

Like all forums Stardrive Continued contains a variety of views. A number of members, like myself, are posters that take a middle ground, both positive (the Doc's Stardrive Extended Mod looks very promising) and critical. Many of us in the middle ground cannot post (or cannot post openly) on the official forums because we’ve been deleted or banned.

It’s naïve to think that this situation will end without change. The Stardrive Continued forum has grown a lot in the mere 3 months it has been in existence. All sorts of people will come out of the woodwork when Stardrive 2 gets to release. The change that I’ve been proposing consistently is for the community to be managed by someone other than Zero. Zero can simply focus on developing a great game and making more patches. The ideal outcome is a better community and better game and even though I’ve been banned and deleted, I still don’t want any other outcome.

In short, I have no idea how you could read my posts and could come to such ridiculous conclusions e.g. lynch mobs. I’m even more astonished that DevildogFF agreed with it as it has no relevance to my position or the reasons why I posted a link to Stardrive Continued. If you are interested in the views of those of us in the middle ground, you simply can’t read them on the Steam Stardrive forums.

Now with that said, welcome to the forums!


I don't think the original post was aimed at Ice! If it was, then I don't agree at all.

I thought he was speaking to the people that HAVE been making this an issue well over a year later.

If it was directed at Ice, then I take back my agreement, haha!

EDIT: Oh, yes, I see that one sentence where it suggests that Ice was doing that. Completely disagree.

Ice is a gentleperson and a scholar in my opinion and is so in every forum I've seen him in. To suggest that he's part of the problem is just plain wrong.

Reading comprehension was not at 100% the other day. My bad, Ice.


< Message edited by DevildogFF -- 6/25/2014 3:45:30 PM >

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 24
RE: Stardrive Community Divide - 6/25/2014 3:17:20 PM   
Icemania


Posts: 1833
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From: Australia
Status: offline
Thanks DevildogFF, well played, and I hope for light on the other side ...

(in reply to DevildogFF)
Post #: 25
RE: Stardrive Community Divide - 6/27/2014 6:35:53 PM   
ASHBERY76


Posts: 2079
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
Status: offline
Iceman going a little OCD?

Give Dan a break.

_____________________________


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Post #: 26
RE: Stardrive Community Divide - 6/28/2014 4:09:23 AM   
Icemania


Posts: 1833
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline
As always your posts add tremendous insight to the discussion.

Not.

(in reply to ASHBERY76)
Post #: 27
RE: Stardrive Community Divide - 6/28/2014 3:04:01 PM   
brucemcl777


Posts: 99
Joined: 11/14/2011
From: Toronto Canada
Status: offline
quote:

occasionally he has made some PR blunders


"about time that Zero hired someone to do the talking for him"

now you are talking Devildog... and banning Ice was beyond all reason by the way

And Zero yea, Like every time he opens his mouth his foot falls out, and then he shoots himself in his other foot

"a lot of idiots that have acted poorly in the past (life threats, personal attacks) that are pretending to be victims here, now that the past posts have been deleted."

Speaking as one of those idiots (but not life threats)personally I deal with people according to the perception of how I am dealt with - if and when Zero respects us as
paying customers - I will respond to him as a respected developer. Until that day he is a little man with a little mind in my view.

And Icemania knows me well enough that while I am volatile and have strong views I am no idiot.

And I'm Spartacus by the way



< Message edited by brucemcl777 -- 6/28/2014 4:21:20 PM >


_____________________________

you can always find me on Steam at
http://steamcommunity.com/groups/stratwin
Where we are all about Strategy - come join us - there my name is I'm Spartacus.

Order of Battle: Pacific fan
Morning Sun: beta tester
US Marines: beta tester


(in reply to Tormodino)
Post #: 28
RE: Stardrive Community Divide - 6/28/2014 3:26:15 PM   
brucemcl777


Posts: 99
Joined: 11/14/2011
From: Toronto Canada
Status: offline
First death threats and now lynch mobs huh ice?

And now you're diagnosed with OCD by an amateur Freud

Tsk, Tsk - what will you be up to next?

"To suggest that he's part of the problem is just plain wrong." Absolutely correct Devildog - I might be part of the problem
but Ice is part of the solution - only if Zero ever listens though.

I'm Spartacus

< Message edited by brucemcl777 -- 6/28/2014 4:39:03 PM >


_____________________________

you can always find me on Steam at
http://steamcommunity.com/groups/stratwin
Where we are all about Strategy - come join us - there my name is I'm Spartacus.

Order of Battle: Pacific fan
Morning Sun: beta tester
US Marines: beta tester


(in reply to DevildogFF)
Post #: 29
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