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Withdrawals? - 6/3/2014 11:24:37 PM   
Michael T


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Are there any withdrawals accounted for in this game? If so where are they listed?

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RE: Withdrawals? - 6/4/2014 12:38:47 AM   
Marquo


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Your withdrawals will be found in the dead pile; get out while you can. 😄

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RE: Withdrawals? - 6/4/2014 12:52:06 AM   
Michael T


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Its not the Soviet deadpile I am concerned with, yet…..

More so the SS Mech XX that IIRC were withdrawn in July-Sept 42?

Do they get withdrawn?

Stalin demands answers!


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RE: Withdrawals? - 6/4/2014 2:46:31 AM   
RCH


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No withdraws. 11th Army and Meinstein stays. Heavy arty stays.


Trapp and Case Blue Long have different OOBSs. In Case Blue long LAH isn't there.

< Message edited by RCH -- 6/4/2014 3:48:12 AM >

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RE: Withdrawals? - 6/4/2014 3:05:16 AM   
Marquo


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The Soviet dead pile just got bigger 😎

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RE: Withdrawals? - 6/4/2014 3:15:54 AM   
Michael T


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How strange. Why would Vic make an historical game that does not follow conventional historical Axis OOB comings and goings?

I have searched this forum for other similar posts and find nothing. Has this point not occured to others?

Vic???

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RE: Withdrawals? - 6/4/2014 3:18:52 AM   
Michael T


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I should add that I accept the situation and will quite happily play as Axis with these extra troops one day as well. But it strikes me as very odd that it exists as it is and that it hasn't raised eyebrows previously.

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RE: Withdrawals? - 6/4/2014 3:31:29 AM   
Michael T


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The GD XX is listed to arrive on 19 June 42, and again 12 Feb 1943. So presumabley it must withdraw at some point between these two dates. Or perhaps you will get 2 x GD Marquo!

< Message edited by Michael T -- 6/4/2014 4:32:10 AM >


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RE: Withdrawals? - 6/4/2014 3:54:41 AM   
RCH


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Issue had come up and has been discussed. I kind of like it how it is. It's just numbers. The available men is what you have and you can organize them how you wish. Let me create or disband the corps/divisions that I want. The total available men for the game doesn't change(with the understanding of cards).

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RE: Withdrawals? - 6/4/2014 4:32:52 AM   
Michael T


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Well I will wait for comment from Vic before saying too much more.

But I am curious as to what happens with SS AH and GD. Because there are two instances of each in the printed OOB material. So either one instance must withdraw at some point or both will co exist.

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RE: Withdrawals? - 6/4/2014 8:15:29 AM   
Vic


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It has been discussed a lot earlier and yes there are no redraws. It is impossible to implement this well without causing a hell of a lot of exploits (like purposefully wearing those units out).

If you want you can of course use house rules or making a mod by adding events. But all in all I have decided against implementing these historical redrawls. It aint perfect I agree.

Best,
Vic

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RE: Withdrawals? - 6/4/2014 8:45:31 AM   
Michael T


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So what happens when you get 2 GD XX's? And 2 AH SS XX's? Can you rename them?

I hope you come up with something better for DC3.

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RE: Withdrawals? - 6/4/2014 10:35:09 AM   
Marquo


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RCH,

What is the "understanding of cards" mean?

Vic,

WITE addresses this by forcing the withdrawn unit to get priority on replacements until it is up to 75% strength. I do not mind unless the umber of troops creeps over what was historically available. Hopefully extensive testing showed that this does not disequilibrate the game.





< Message edited by Marquo -- 6/4/2014 11:39:21 AM >

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RE: Withdrawals? - 6/4/2014 4:14:41 PM   
RCH


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You don't get 2 of the same unit.

Historically, divisions were pulled for different reasons. Some where pulled because they were destroyed. Is it historical to pull a unit from game if it is not destroyed in game? The WITE system is a terrible system and they are maintaining a very strict historical withdraw system. I have played both and this is better hands down.

There are pluses and minuses to each way in addressing withdraws. I think DC has a better system. It always comes down to available men. In a way the Axis gets a bump with keeping Mainstein and a couple divisions. I think you need that bump or you get stalled out to easily. Rostov can be very hard to take in this game where historically it wasn't that hard(relatively speaking). Rostov opens the door to the entire south. The Axis player can be tied up there for a number of turns finally relying on brute force to take it. Historically, that wasn't the case. The game is not perfect.

Marco,

If you want to build a SS Motorized Division you can. There are no where near the replacements coming in that you need so you must resort to using cards, and the SS cards at that. You must play a lot of these cards. In the end you get the division (an influx of SS troops). What is the cost? In the long run you suffer by not using cards for the other parts of the army. It is not worth it. So cards, if you play them to lets say only for infantry replacements you will see an increase of the infantry. This may not be the best way to use cards. Sometimes it is essential to get more staff for the corps that you are trying to build or etc.

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RE: Withdrawals? - 6/4/2014 9:07:50 PM   
Michael T


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RCH what do you get then? The OOB states the GD and AH twice?

Can someone explain what happens when a second GD and AH arrives?



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RE: Withdrawals? - 6/5/2014 2:20:38 AM   
RCH


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Hey I'm sorry Mike I don't understand your question.

If I look at Reinforcement Unit Guide vs 1.00 I see the Grossduetchland arriving at 19 june 1942. I don't see the LAH in the guide at all.

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RE: Withdrawals? - 6/5/2014 8:58:30 AM   
Michael T


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Rich, check out the updated guide in the errata folder 1.06. You will see GD XX twice. Once in June 1942 and again in early 1943. AH is on the map at start and is listed again to enter in early 1943.

The world wonders....

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RE: Withdrawals? - 6/5/2014 9:04:45 AM   
Michael T


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Historically both those divisions were withdrawn to rebuild/upgrade in 1942 and returned in 1943.

Its nuts to say Case Blue doesn't have withdrawals, but then include units that return that haven't been withdrawn. You can't have it both ways. Its nonsensical. I must be missing something here.

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RE: Withdrawals? - 6/5/2014 11:03:22 AM   
Marquo


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I think the point is that the total number of assets available maybe +/- accurate just deployed different. If they were withdrawn to be refit then this represents a bump in assets not accounted for in the constant replacement rate. And yes units can be renamed by clicking the name. Hopefully this is simply a work around design for effect.


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RE: Withdrawals? - 6/5/2014 4:22:25 PM   
Vic


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Hi Michael,

Valid questions. In fact a unit will be taken off the reinforcement list for a specific game immediately if it is already present on the map at start of the game.

So this should be a satifying answer for LSAH (which is present in Trappenjagd and Case Blue but not in Uranus). But I have to say that I made an error in the last patch for GD. If you start the game in Trappenjagd (GD will arrive in June) and play all the way to Feb43 you will get an extra GD division. I put it on the to-do list, but seriously it will happen very very rarely somebody plays all the way from May 42 to Feb 43.

Best,
Vic


< Message edited by Vic -- 6/5/2014 5:23:23 PM >


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RE: Withdrawals? - 6/5/2014 9:04:34 PM   
Michael T


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Thank you very much Vic.

I am happy with AH situation now. So if I understand correctly the second AH will never arrive. No problem.

As for GD I will try to negotiate a HR with Marquo in relation to the GD doppleganger.

I appreciate that most games will not go till the end. But none the less a player should feel confident that if his game does go the distance it won't be derailed by some anomally. I hope you fix this eventually.

FWIW I really like this game very much. Wish I had started playing it long ago. I am looking forward to DC3 and will be on the band wagon from the get go

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RE: Withdrawals? - 6/7/2014 2:37:21 AM   
Michael T


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Vic, will this work ok.

If the first GD is set to disband in Sept 42 will the second GD arrive in Feb 43?


Also I think you still need a fix for AH. Because if the second upgraded AH does not arrive that means the Axis player will not get the upgraded version. That is he is stuck with the 42 version. The 43 version is a more powerful unit.

OR perhaps if the Axis player disbands the original AH will the 43 version arrive?

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RE: Withdrawals? - 6/7/2014 7:23:38 AM   
Vic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Vic, will this work ok.

If the first GD is set to disband in Sept 42 will the second GD arrive in Feb 43?


Also I think you still need a fix for AH. Because if the second upgraded AH does not arrive that means the Axis player will not get the upgraded version. That is he is stuck with the 42 version. The 43 version is a more powerful unit.

OR perhaps if the Axis player disbands the original AH will the 43 version arrive?


Nothing will avoid this GD glitch from happening except house rules and parking the unit in reserve when it arrives.

And there is only one type of TOE of SS Motorized Division for the whole duration of the game. Could you tell me what was the upgrade there should have been?

Best,
Vic




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RE: Withdrawals? - 6/7/2014 8:21:25 PM   
Marquo


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I am seeing the GD coming in on 19 June 1942 and Das Reich arriving Feb 14 1943 - where is the redundant GD??

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RE: Withdrawals? - 6/7/2014 10:07:41 PM   
Michael T


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@Vic
The 1943 version of LSAH had about 30 more Panzers and more Armoured Troop carriers (Half Tracks) than the 1942 version. It was withdrawn in July 1942. Before returning 1943 after the upgrade. It was more like a Panzer Division than a PzG by this stage.

@Marquo -
check out the updated guide in the errata folder 1.06. You will see GD XX twice. Once in June 1942 and again in early 1943


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