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RE: Return of the Sheep!

 
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RE: Return of the Sheep! - 7/12/2014 12:39:17 AM   
BBfanboy


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From: Winnipeg, MB
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Sort-of agree with you JeffK.
Having a game end after only a year of game-time would be a big disappointment after all the work trying to manage hoards of units and
implement a strategy that will take time to unfold. Even more so if the Allied player is a newbie and makes some mistakes that cost more
than the usual rap on the knuckles. It is bound to discourage his addiction to the game!

One of the best games I have followed on the forum was Greyjoy's first stint as master of Japan. Watching him set up his series of defensive
perimeters and skillfully use each one and then slip back to the next with minimal losses was far better than seeing an Allied juggernaut
crush everything in sight from mid-1943 on. I am sure the challenge was enjoyable for his opponent too.

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(in reply to JeffK)
Post #: 391
RE: Return of the Sheep! - 7/12/2014 5:12:41 AM   
Cribtop


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amoral


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK



Only 44 days into the war, well over 300 days before the end of 42.

Plus, IMVHO, why play any game like this for points????


The idea that wars are fought to the bitterest end is a pretty recent innovation. Japan thought they could come to an agreement with the US after the US became war-weary. Japan's real life plan can be equated to "achieve autovictory on points in 1943". Without that goal Japan's best choice is to surrender on Dec 7 1941.


I cant see that the US , Commonwealth & Chinese would ever have found any terms to come to peace with the japanese.
This "war-weary" comment about the USA always surprises me, they had a short WW1 which didnt place a heavy drain on its manpower, only entered WW2 after 27 months of world conflict and in the big picture saw little land conflict until the recovery of the Phillipines (I qualify this as 2 Divs or greater) 80 years earlier it had fought amongst itself for more than 4 years and over 600,000 deaths, I cant see how the loss of a few easily replace Combat ships, some islands that the average American had never heard of or even the collapse of China would have seen the Allies scurrying to the ceasefire tables.

VP & AV are artificial & irrelevant to the campaign, maybe relevant if you only want to play for a year of game time, but as many have recommended, force the player into stupid, short term strategies "just to beat AV" and is wholly to the advantage of the JFB who can, with his 100% knowledge of the Allied capacities, play a strategy to amass points rather than a secure strategic position.

Plus, we have reviewed just about every piece of data in the game, are the VP values correct??? What value has a low lying piece of coral atoll that no-one has heard of??
End of whinge.


See most people forget Texas fought for the South. This is why the Confederacy lasted as long as it did. Later generations forget to factor in that TEXANS are fighting for the US now and thus assume the US will wuss out.

OK, that last sentence was probably Texan jingoism taken to the extreme. Nonetheless, the point applies to the US generally. Other nations often interpret our discussions as weakness and are shocked when we unite against them, only to resume bickering once the external threat abates. Weird folk, us Amis.

PS - the quote feature flamed out on this. Assume I started with "See most people forget Texas" and this will make more sense.


< Message edited by Cribtop -- 7/12/2014 6:16:07 AM >


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RE: Return of the Sheep! - 7/12/2014 10:39:57 AM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

This is a great comment and those expressed by offenseman. I know your views on PDU-off Jocke and while I don't agree with your reasoning, it is something you should be taking advantage of. You will be facing limited numbers of Tojo's and dealing mostly with Oscar's in 1942 to mid-43. You should be planning accordingly. Get your pilot training up and look to contest the air war in my opinion. This is where you have the best chance to make up ground in VP's until the Allied naval and LCU deficits can be addressed. I also think you are too pessimistic about China. You know yourself from our game how Chinese units in 3x terrain with SL's can halt the Japanese advance. That will buy you the time you need to stave off AV elsewhere. You know the capabilities of the Allies from your game against Erik, use what you learned from that game and take it to Mr. Kane. You'll find he's good, but not Superman, he's playing the Japanese after all.



Hey Joseph.

Pilot training is in full swing already. I hope to get opportunities in a couple of months.

Sadly I think I´m pretty spot on about China. The roadblock to Ankang is slowly crumbling despite a 3x terrain. Tom is slowly wearing them down using DAs, bombardments and bombings from the air. First attack was 1:6 for him. Last turn another DA got a 1:2. I have only about 7-10 days before he breaks through. Behind the roadblock he has a full Corps backed up by armor that will quickly move up to Ankang and threaten Chungking = game over in China.

Hopefully I can keep him off Chungking for a while but I´ll continue to be pessimistic.

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Post #: 393
RE: Return of the Sheep! - 7/12/2014 10:51:50 AM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: poodlebrain
Why is he out of range? Because he wants to be. How can you make him pay for this? Ground attacks. Destroying devices earns VPs just as well as destroying airplanes. Force the Japanese to bring fighter cover over areas where they will be in range of your fighters.


I wish I could to that. But he is out of bomber range as well. Besides all I got are Lysanders with 30 EXP pilots...for now. That will change in a couple of months though.


< Message edited by JocMeister -- 7/12/2014 11:51:22 AM >

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Post #: 394
RE: Return of the Sheep! - 7/12/2014 10:59:05 AM   
JocMeister

 

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China - 25th of January
______________________________________________________________________________

So this is the current situation. I have to make a decision about Sian very shortly. I´m slowly crumbling at every roadblock. I can´t recover disablements and Tom can. Without any reserves I have no possibility to rotate troops in and out to allow them R&R. While the 2600 AV from Changsha is arriving at the theater I´m very reluctant to put them on the front line as they are my last reserves.

I know Sian is undefendable. I think its time to start pulling out and forming a new defensive line just West of Ankang going all the way up to Lanchow.

Thoughts?




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RE: Return of the Sheep! - 7/12/2014 12:16:06 PM   
JocMeister

 

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China - 26th of January
______________________________________________________________________________

A small update on the Sian situation. The river crossing NE of Sian sadly was a Japanese success.

quote:

Ground combat at 85,39 (near Sian)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 34871 troops, 266 guns, 214 vehicles, Assault Value = 1133

Defending force 25009 troops, 154 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 767

Japanese adjusted assault: 747

Allied adjusted defense: 471

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
1293 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 141 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 23 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 9 disabled
Vehicles lost 50 (1 destroyed, 49 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
2425 casualties reported
Squads: 48 destroyed, 121 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 15 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled
Guns lost 29 (2 destroyed, 27 disabled)


Assaulting units:
15th Tank Regiment
17th Division
15th Division
6th Ind.Mixed Brigade
5th Armored Car Co


Defending units:
47th Chinese Corps
42nd Chinese Corps
8th Route Army
84th Chinese Corps


My troops are pretty much shattered and will most likely fall in the next attack. There are no reinforcements available to send here. All I can do is hope supply will limit his abilities.

He also do a DA at the roadblock due E of Sian.

quote:

Ground combat at 86,41 (near Loyang)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 62704 troops, 566 guns, 199 vehicles, Assault Value = 1895

Defending force 69677 troops, 243 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1673

Japanese adjusted assault: 803

Allied adjusted defense: 661

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), disruption(-), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
4973 casualties reported
Squads: 46 destroyed, 389 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 51 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 34 disabled
Guns lost 25 (2 destroyed, 23 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
4239 casualties reported
Squads: 81 destroyed, 223 disabled
Non Combat: 12 destroyed, 41 disabled
Engineers: 4 destroyed, 6 disabled
Guns lost 18 (8 destroyed, 10 disabled)


Assaulting units:
32nd Division
16th Ind.Mixed Brigade
37th Division
110th Division
41st Division
3rd Ind.Mixed Brigade
35th/C Division
6th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
2nd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
22nd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
1st Army
3rd Hvy.Artillery Regiment


Defending units:
1st Chinese Corps
57th Chinese Corps
36th Chinese Corps
16th Chinese Corps
9th Chinese Corps
76th Chinese Corps
85th Chinese Corps
7th Group Army
34th Group Army


I would have needed a crushing win here in order to free some troops for the block on the NE of Sian. Sadly the troops I had moving out (in combat mode) took an absolute beating and will now be out for 3-6 months. Tom will recover in 10-15 days while I won´t.

An all to familiar sight of supply in the red are starting to show everywhere in China now. I had hoped with the Burma road open I could stay in white for a little bit longer. No so such luck!

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RE: Return of the Sheep! - 7/12/2014 12:31:28 PM   
Lowpe

 

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Taking Ankang so early is simply devilish. Mr. Kane is launching a really nice focused attack in China. I think the IJA will cut the road north of Sian very quickly and you will be in a bigger pickle....

I am worried about the lack of depth near the river crossing the 8th Route Army is defending & Sian. From the map, I would be falling back now from the exposed position south and east of Sian. I would be trying like the devil to build a new line.

What are your plans for the Chinese artillery?




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Post #: 397
RE: Return of the Sheep! - 7/12/2014 12:52:07 PM   
ny59giants


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Going for northern China makes sense for Japan as the oil is up there. It will cut off the Chinese from fuel to feed her small heavy industry spread out across the country. Thus, making your supply situation even worse. From my experience vs Mr Kane, he will use his massive stacks of heavy artillery from Manchuria to wear you down. Add in the constant air attacks and you are in trouble here.

Note - Its early, but file this note away. If you can develop Ledo to size 5 AF, then those old B-17D have great range to reach into China. They can hit Lanchow once he gets there.

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RE: Return of the Sheep! - 7/12/2014 12:53:12 PM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Taking Ankang so early is simply devilish. Mr. Kane is launching a really nice focused attack in China. I think the IJA will cut the road north of Sian very quickly and you will be in a bigger pickle....


Indeed that is my biggest worry. If the troops in the Sian sector gets cut off from the Chungking basin I´m toast!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
I am worried about the lack of depth near the river crossing the 8th Route Army is defending & Sian. From the map, I would be falling back now from the exposed position south and east of Sian. I would be trying like the devil to build a new line.


Yeah, sadly there are nothing more to throw into the grinder. I had hoped a river crossing would deter him until I could scrape up some reinforcements. With the successful rivercrossing that went down the drain. I´ve already started a small scale retreat E and S of Sian.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
What are your plans for the Chinese artillery?

My "plan" is to try and use it where it can make a difference. Right now most of it will reach Sian in 2-3 weeks.


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RE: Return of the Sheep! - 7/12/2014 1:05:42 PM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Going for northern China makes sense for Japan as the oil is up there. It will cut off the Chinese from fuel to feed her small heavy industry spread out across the country. Thus, making your supply situation even worse. From my experience vs Mr Kane, he will use his massive stacks of heavy artillery from Manchuria to wear you down. Add in the constant air attacks and you are in trouble here.

Note - Its early, but file this note away. If you can develop Ledo to size 5 AF, then those old B-17D have great range to reach into China. They can hit Lanchow once he gets there.


Can´t downgrade any squadrons to the D model as its PDU OFF and all D squadrons withdraw soon.

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RE: Return of the Sheep! - 7/12/2014 1:07:19 PM   
JocMeister

 

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KB Spotted - 27th of January
______________________________________________________________________________

Looks like he lingered in deep SOPAC trying to find something juice after the Tahiti strike. Hope he burned loads of fuel!




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RE: Return of the Sheep! - 7/12/2014 4:42:55 PM   
Capt. Harlock


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quote:

I cant see that the US , Commonwealth & Chinese would ever have found any terms to come to peace with the japanese.


I can see one way. Do *not* do the Pearl Harbor raid. At the opening of the war, the Japanese should invade the DEI only, claiming that they are liberating it from an illegitimate colonial power. (And at that point, Holland was occupied, so there were questions about the legitimacy of the Free Dutch government.) This would force Britain and the U. S. to declare war on Japan, costing them immense political support back home, and making them more eager for a settlement.

I continue to be disappointed that no one seems to have created a formal scenario like this.

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RE: Return of the Sheep! - 7/12/2014 7:54:20 PM   
JocMeister

 

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China - End of Sian
______________________________________________________________________________

Well, the decision to abandon Sian or not was made for me last turn. As so often in China lack of supply tips the balance even in tough terrain. Tom kept his patience and has worn down over 1000 Chinese AV in this hex and the hex to the west of it in just 30 days or so.

Under massive Chinese losses to road to Sian is now wide open for the Japanese hordes. I will pull whatever I can back into better terrain while leaving all the low strength Corps is Sian to die (and later respawn).

quote:

Ground combat at 86,41 (near Loyang)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 59030 troops, 566 guns, 200 vehicles, Assault Value = 1546

Defending force 31896 troops, 110 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 822

Japanese adjusted assault: 1065

Allied adjusted defense: 281

Japanese assault odds: 3 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), disruption(-), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
2947 casualties reported
Squads: 11 destroyed, 350 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 26 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 12 disabled
Guns lost 19 (2 destroyed, 17 disabled)
Vehicles lost 3 (1 destroyed, 2 disabled)
Units pursuing 1


Allied ground losses:
11584 casualties reported
Squads: 294 destroyed, 56 disabled
Non Combat: 429 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 14 destroyed, 12 disabled
Guns lost 11 (4 destroyed, 7 disabled)
Units retreated 5





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RE: Return of the Sheep! - 7/12/2014 10:26:08 PM   
Lowpe

 

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I have broken thru that mlr in less than 3 months and was in the central plains quite quickly by simply forcing the river crossing west of Ankang and then move straight south west to the new road (or north west to the road there). So the hex west of Ankang and the hexes to the roads to the nw and sw are key, but is there no way you can take Ankang back with your arriving reserves? That would buy you hexes and time...otherwise that mlr won't last long I think and is not as strong as it looks.

If he flies troops into Ankang and takes that hex due west now you are really in trouble if he can get supplies there. I would be moving my best troops, AA and ART to due west of Ankang if you can't recapture it now, and then garrison the hexes along the march arrows.

I would make him fight all the way up the road to Ankang.

Really nice attack strategy by Mr. Kane. I think his goal is to push thru the mountains around Ankang and move on the central plains of China first, leaving southern China in your hands and your forces spread out hoping to avoid a huge meat grinder around and in Chungking with practically the whole of the Chinese Army there. Will that strategy work with stacking limits? Will he be able to supply his troops that way?

What is the stacking limit at Chungking? He could be there in 4 months...

I guess you have taken the normal supply conservation measures...turn off repairs, ground most of the air force somewhere safe, turn off reinforcements and upgrades except for a few select units, no extraneous fort building.

PS: I have got to get AndyMac to do that paratroop drop in Ironman Nasty. Even if the AI doesn't follow up on it, what a pita.





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< Message edited by Lowpe -- 7/12/2014 11:50:01 PM >

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RE: Return of the Sheep! - 7/12/2014 10:30:03 PM   
JeffK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock

quote:

I cant see that the US , Commonwealth & Chinese would ever have found any terms to come to peace with the japanese.


I can see one way. Do *not* do the Pearl Harbor raid. At the opening of the war, the Japanese should invade the DEI only, claiming that they are liberating it from an illegitimate colonial power. (And at that point, Holland was occupied, so there were questions about the legitimacy of the Free Dutch government.) This would force Britain and the U. S. to declare war on Japan, costing them immense political support back home, and making them more eager for a settlement.

I continue to be disappointed that no one seems to have created a formal scenario like this.

I agree with you, but as the war started for the USA on 7 Dec 41 this is a fait accompli

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RE: Return of the Sheep! - 7/13/2014 4:15:54 AM   
JocMeister

 

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Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I have broken thru that mlr in less than 3 months and was in the central plains quite quickly by simply forcing the river crossing west of Ankang and then move straight south west to the new road (or north west to the road there). So the hex west of Ankang and the hexes to the roads to the nw and sw are key, but is there no way you can take Ankang back with your arriving reserves? That would buy you hexes and time...otherwise that mlr won't last long I think and is not as strong as it looks.

If he flies troops into Ankang and takes that hex due west now you are really in trouble if he can get supplies there. I would be moving my best troops, AA and ART to due west of Ankang if you can't recapture it now, and then garrison the hexes along the march arrows.

I would make him fight all the way up the road to Ankang.

Really nice attack strategy by Mr. Kane. I think his goal is to push thru the mountains around Ankang and move on the central plains of China first, leaving southern China in your hands and your forces spread out hoping to avoid a huge meat grinder around and in Chungking with practically the whole of the Chinese Army there. Will that strategy work with stacking limits? Will he be able to supply his troops that way?

What is the stacking limit at Chungking? He could be there in 4 months...

I guess you have taken the normal supply conservation measures...turn off repairs, ground most of the air force somewhere safe, turn off reinforcements and upgrades except for a few select units, no extraneous fort building.

PS: I have got to get AndyMac to do that paratroop drop in Ironman Nasty. Even if the AI doesn't follow up on it, what a pita.






Thanks for the post!

Having Ankang would of course help tremendously. But with the terrain there I´m not sure I can dislodge him. My bombers have only flown about 1 day in 10 so the AF has been mostly open. According to air losses Tom has flown in troops every day possible.

I´m also rushing troops down towards the road block to try and stop him there. But I´m pretty certain he will break through before I can get there. Thats why I put my MLR up further W then what is optimal. But if I can hold the road I will of course.

Tom has no doubt worked this through many times. I have never seen something similar done before but I think we will see more Japanese openings like this in the future. Its pretty neatly done. While China isn´t my strong point I think I played pretty much as well as I could have. If I had started moving troops from Changsha on day 1 I might have made it. But at that time I didn´t know Sian would be the target...

The SL at Chungking is only 160k. But its ALOT of VPs. And with the Chinese resurrection a stand there might just mean a Japanese VP farm...Still undecided weather or not to make the stand there or flee to the mountains once he breaks through...And I think 4 months is pretty optimistic. I think he can be there in 60 days. Most of my troops will be shot even if I can pull them off the line. Once they start moving his Air Force will have a field day...

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RE: Return of the Sheep! - 7/13/2014 7:06:38 AM   
JocMeister

 

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Also I will be leaving town in a couple of hours and be gone for two weeks. I may or may not have access to the forum during. Love this vacation so far...I sprained my back on the first day, I now have a cold with fever and an eye infection. To top that off the rest of the family is sick too!

Hopefully we will recover while on the road.

Cheers guys. Hope your vacations turn out better then mine!

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Post #: 407
RE: Return of the Sheep! - 7/13/2014 7:55:36 AM   
obvert


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From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Also I will be leaving town in a couple of hours and be gone for two weeks. I may or may not have access to the forum during. Love this vacation so far...I sprained my back on the first day, I now have a cold with fever and an eye infection. To top that off the rest of the family is sick too!

Hopefully we will recover while on the road.

Cheers guys. Hope your vacations turn out better then mine!


Yuck. Sorry. Hope you get some rest and get better while you're away.

Things could be worse! At least Maria doesn't know you're playing another campaign yet.

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RE: Return of the Sheep! - 7/13/2014 2:20:25 PM   
BBfanboy


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Small children are little incubators for whatever cold/influenza bug is going around. Since parents have to actually touch
them frequently they are guaranteed to be a victim also. It gets better when they get old enough to be embarrassed by
parents cuddling them and go hang out with their friends.

I also learned that trying to do too much on vacation just exhausts you and ruins the experience. Travel no more than six hours
a day, stop by mid-afternoon and go to a nice hotel with a pool, hot tub or play area for the kids. They need to move.
Parents just need to get out of the car seat and lay back in a reclining chair... and play WITP-AE.


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Post #: 409
RE: Return of the Sheep! - 7/13/2014 4:03:03 PM   
Alfred

 

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1.  The Allied player is panicking.

2.  The MLR is a flawed concept used by Allied players in China.  Against a competent Japanese player who energetically prosecutes their offensive, it will always fail.

3.  The roadblocks were, and still are, not placed in the correct positions.

4.  The two recent Japanese successes at 85,39 and 86,41 are not important.

5.  Sian should be held with the strongest units, not with the weakest.

6.  A strategic reserve can still be created out of the many units occupying useless dirt in the countryside.

7.  Handled properly, Ankang is not the fatal dagger which it is being presented as.

Alfred 

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RE: Return of the Sheep! - 7/13/2014 5:18:26 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

1.  The Allied player is panicking.

2.  The MLR is a flawed concept used by Allied players in China.  Against a competent Japanese player who energetically prosecutes their offensive, it will always fail.


What is the correct concept?

quote:


3.  The roadblocks were, and still are, not placed in the correct positions.

4.  The two recent Japanese successes at 85,39 and 86,41 are not important.

5.  Sian should be held with the strongest units, not with the weakest.


Sian seems to be a bit of a problem in many games because it is a clear hex and the IJAAF pounds away relentlessly at the troops. If they hit and disable or destroy 50 squads a day on average, and the Chinese only repair 10-15 a day, the troops with high fatigue and disruption then are trashed further in a river crossing and are never again useful. So wouldn't it be better to move into the wooded +3 territory with the best units where the air force doesn't have such a devastating effect?
quote:


6.  A strategic reserve can still be created out of the many units occupying useless dirt in the countryside.

7.  Handled properly, Ankang is not the fatal dagger which it is being presented as.

Alfred 


Supply seems the biggest problem in trying this move. I can't see how enough will get to troops there, and of course the more flown in the bigger the problem. I don't see those troops moving anywhere unless the road is opened, so my focus would be on the best places to close the road and the cross-country supply paths, like the river crossing in +3 and the hex next to Sian and Anking to stop any flow through the woods.

_____________________________


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Post #: 411
RE: Return of the Sheep! - 7/13/2014 5:56:28 PM   
Lowpe

 

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Well, the mlr as Joc drew it will guarantee that the entire southern line is cut off from supply and and basically out of the game for a long time as it tries to move south.

I think defense in depth along the road, avenues of approach, make him fight each hex of the way dug in troops. And try to get some units threatening his line of supply. Trashed Chinese units head back, fresh ones perhaps forward, but make him fight heavily on the roads.

Defending Sian...tough, but I think the effort needs to be made if for no other reason than to slow the Japanese down. Tienshuie, north along the railway, can be built to a level 1 airbase allowing you to use fighters in Sian for CAP traps until the rail line is cut.

It is hard to keep the IJA supplied in this area. I would be looking to make the IJA eat as much supplies as possible.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 412
RE: Return of the Sheep! - 7/13/2014 7:36:07 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 5218
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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

1.  The Allied player is panicking.

2.  The MLR is a flawed concept used by Allied players in China.  Against a competent Japanese player who energetically prosecutes their offensive, it will always fail.


What is the correct concept?

quote:


3.  The roadblocks were, and still are, not placed in the correct positions.

4.  The two recent Japanese successes at 85,39 and 86,41 are not important.

5.  Sian should be held with the strongest units, not with the weakest.


Sian seems to be a bit of a problem in many games because it is a clear hex and the IJAAF pounds away relentlessly at the troops. If they hit and disable or destroy 50 squads a day on average, and the Chinese only repair 10-15 a day, the troops with high fatigue and disruption then are trashed further in a river crossing and are never again useful. So wouldn't it be better to move into the wooded +3 territory with the best units where the air force doesn't have such a devastating effect?
quote:


6.  A strategic reserve can still be created out of the many units occupying useless dirt in the countryside.

7.  Handled properly, Ankang is not the fatal dagger which it is being presented as.

Alfred 


Supply seems the biggest problem in trying this move. I can't see how enough will get to troops there, and of course the more flown in the bigger the problem. I don't see those troops moving anywhere unless the road is opened, so my focus would be on the best places to close the road and the cross-country supply paths, like the river crossing in +3 and the hex next to Sian and Anking to stop any flow through the woods.


I've always held that the correct concept is concentrated resistance, rather than "lines." The IJA will break through eventually, and then you've got wasted troops. Better to concentrate them on the defensive, IMO.

But hey, I've lost China too, so maybe I'm wrong as well.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 413
RE: Return of the Sheep! - 7/13/2014 7:40:10 PM   
Lowpe

 

Posts: 9038
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
I've always held that the correct concept is concentrated resistance, rather than "lines." The IJA will break through eventually, and then you've got wasted troops. Better to concentrate them on the defensive, IMO.



This game really rewards concentration of forces...if there are supplies.

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 414
RE: Return of the Sheep! - 7/13/2014 11:02:26 PM   
obvert


Posts: 8985
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


I've always held that the correct concept is concentrated resistance, rather than "lines." The IJA will break through eventually, and then you've got wasted troops. Better to concentrate them on the defensive, IMO.

But hey, I've lost China too, so maybe I'm wrong as well.


With Stacking Limits concentration occurs in every hex. If you're defending the roads only, you can still only put 65k troops on those in the better spots, 20k on some spots in the mountains. What do you do with the rest? What do you do if he moves into a wooded hex you haven't invested and gets control of it, and that hex has access to 3-4 more hexes behind your roadblock?

An MLR in an SL game is a way of saying you've maxed out the hexes the enemy has potential to attack and kept reserves behind to fill in should he gain some advantages in certain areas. It isn't putting troops in unnecessary hexes, because if you don't cover those hexes, as in real warfare, your opponent will simply move there before you can and he will have an advantage.

In a game without SL my opponent put 69 Chinese units in one hex, a road toward Kunming where there is little hope of going around. That works without SL, but with them concentration has to occur along a line of defense as well as in depth behind the front lines. There is no room for all of the troops otherwise for one, but of course this allows mobility and tactics to take precedence as well, which is why it's such a better game with SL.

< Message edited by obvert -- 7/14/2014 12:03:51 AM >


_____________________________


"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 415
RE: Return of the Sheep! - 7/13/2014 11:19:44 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 8300
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: online
The lower the SL in China, the easier it is to defend the hex in my experience. Once it gets over 50k, then the advantage switches back over to Japan.

_____________________________


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Post #: 416
RE: Return of the Sheep! - 7/14/2014 5:19:42 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 5218
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


I've always held that the correct concept is concentrated resistance, rather than "lines." The IJA will break through eventually, and then you've got wasted troops. Better to concentrate them on the defensive, IMO.

But hey, I've lost China too, so maybe I'm wrong as well.


With Stacking Limits concentration occurs in every hex. If you're defending the roads only, you can still only put 65k troops on those in the better spots, 20k on some spots in the mountains. What do you do with the rest? What do you do if he moves into a wooded hex you haven't invested and gets control of it, and that hex has access to 3-4 more hexes behind your roadblock?


It means you picked a poor roadblock .

The rest should be moving back, back, back. I understand that you can only stack so many troops in the backfield as well. This comes with the disclaimer that I've never played with the SL map, but the IJA can still just push right over the Chinese if they want to. It requires prioritizing certain deployments.

With SLs, I suspect that my approach would be to modify the concentration of troops. You can't stack it all in one hex, obviously - but you can stack it in a small ring. A strongpoint of hexes rather than just one superstack. Look at the terrain and pick locations. I've already stated my opinions on your chosen foremost MLR and won't restate them here in case GJ is reading... There are a couple of obvious defensive locations in central China for small areas of concentration. Yes, they're farther back than Changsha, but you just can't do it up there, IMO. All of this is just speedbumps, part of my larger view that China is indefensible (even with SLs, I think, which just slows things down) and that the Allied goal here should be speedbumping and trying to bloody the IJA's nose when possible, buying time before those IJA LCUs are committed in Burma or other theaters. Buying said time prevents the Japan from establishing a large buffer in Burma/India (although you already have that against GJ), which is a major Allied strategic goal, IMO.

Viable areas for doing so:
1) Kukong and the surrounding rough hexes. Know that whatever you put here is going to get cut off and destroyed.
2) Chihkiang to Kweiyang. You can defend the 4 road crossings here and they are important roads for the IJA to hold if they want to move on Chungking. You can try speedbumping at Changteh, but he can just skip it, really.
3) Kweilin - speedbump here, because he can't skip it if he wants to use the railroad to Tuyun. If the IJA is impatient, you can establish lines of retreat up the goat track to the north.
4) Kweiyang, and the area just north.

I don't think SLs changes the big picture of how the IJA should advance very much. The same bases remain important. Defending in the middle of nowhere between Changsha and Kukong doesn't do the Chinese any good. Same with defending between Ankang and the central valley. The IJA has the ability to just circle around you, even through the rough hexes, so why waste your troops in the middle of nowhere?

If anything, SLs may make China even more impossible once the IJA reaches Chungking - the Chinese will become massively overstacked due to the resurrection rule, and suffer enormous supply and disruption penalties.

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

An MLR in an SL game is a way of saying you've maxed out the hexes the enemy has potential to attack and kept reserves behind to fill in should he gain some advantages in certain areas. It isn't putting troops in unnecessary hexes, because if you don't cover those hexes, as in real warfare, your opponent will simply move there before you can and he will have an advantage.

In a game without SL my opponent put 69 Chinese units in one hex, a road toward Kunming where there is little hope of going around. That works without SL, but with them concentration has to occur along a line of defense as well as in depth behind the front lines. There is no room for all of the troops otherwise for one, but of course this allows mobility and tactics to take precedence as well, which is why it's such a better game with SL.


MLRs themselves cover unnecessary hexes in China, IMO. The units are going to be getting an even smaller flow of supply if they are off the good roads. In India and Australia, MLRs may make sense.

IMO the Chinese should largely go into the western mountains and hope Chungking holds long enough to serve your strategic goals. You can also try a "rope a dope" by tempting the IJA to penetrate deep and early, and then closing their supply lines - delaying them more than if you'd just fallen back steadily.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 417
RE: Return of the Sheep! - 7/14/2014 9:15:16 PM   
obvert


Posts: 8985
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


I've always held that the correct concept is concentrated resistance, rather than "lines." The IJA will break through eventually, and then you've got wasted troops. Better to concentrate them on the defensive, IMO.

But hey, I've lost China too, so maybe I'm wrong as well.


With Stacking Limits concentration occurs in every hex. If you're defending the roads only, you can still only put 65k troops on those in the better spots, 20k on some spots in the mountains. What do you do with the rest? What do you do if he moves into a wooded hex you haven't invested and gets control of it, and that hex has access to 3-4 more hexes behind your roadblock?


It means you picked a poor roadblock .

The rest should be moving back, back, back. I understand that you can only stack so many troops in the backfield as well. This comes with the disclaimer that I've never played with the SL map, but the IJA can still just push right over the Chinese if they want to. It requires prioritizing certain deployments.

With SLs, I suspect that my approach would be to modify the concentration of troops. You can't stack it all in one hex, obviously - but you can stack it in a small ring. A strongpoint of hexes rather than just one superstack. Look at the terrain and pick locations. I've already stated my opinions on your chosen foremost MLR and won't restate them here in case GJ is reading... There are a couple of obvious defensive locations in central China for small areas of concentration. Yes, they're farther back than Changsha, but you just can't do it up there, IMO. All of this is just speedbumps, part of my larger view that China is indefensible (even with SLs, I think, which just slows things down) and that the Allied goal here should be speedbumping and trying to bloody the IJA's nose when possible, buying time before those IJA LCUs are committed in Burma or other theaters. Buying said time prevents the Japan from establishing a large buffer in Burma/India (although you already have that against GJ), which is a major Allied strategic goal, IMO.

Viable areas for doing so:
1) Kukong and the surrounding rough hexes. Know that whatever you put here is going to get cut off and destroyed.
2) Chihkiang to Kweiyang. You can defend the 4 road crossings here and they are important roads for the IJA to hold if they want to move on Chungking. You can try speedbumping at Changteh, but he can just skip it, really.
3) Kweilin - speedbump here, because he can't skip it if he wants to use the railroad to Tuyun. If the IJA is impatient, you can establish lines of retreat up the goat track to the north.
4) Kweiyang, and the area just north.

I don't think SLs changes the big picture of how the IJA should advance very much. The same bases remain important. Defending in the middle of nowhere between Changsha and Kukong doesn't do the Chinese any good. Same with defending between Ankang and the central valley. The IJA has the ability to just circle around you, even through the rough hexes, so why waste your troops in the middle of nowhere?

If anything, SLs may make China even more impossible once the IJA reaches Chungking - the Chinese will become massively overstacked due to the resurrection rule, and suffer enormous supply and disruption penalties.

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

An MLR in an SL game is a way of saying you've maxed out the hexes the enemy has potential to attack and kept reserves behind to fill in should he gain some advantages in certain areas. It isn't putting troops in unnecessary hexes, because if you don't cover those hexes, as in real warfare, your opponent will simply move there before you can and he will have an advantage.

In a game without SL my opponent put 69 Chinese units in one hex, a road toward Kunming where there is little hope of going around. That works without SL, but with them concentration has to occur along a line of defense as well as in depth behind the front lines. There is no room for all of the troops otherwise for one, but of course this allows mobility and tactics to take precedence as well, which is why it's such a better game with SL.


MLRs themselves cover unnecessary hexes in China, IMO. The units are going to be getting an even smaller flow of supply if they are off the good roads. In India and Australia, MLRs may make sense.

IMO the Chinese should largely go into the western mountains and hope Chungking holds long enough to serve your strategic goals. You can also try a "rope a dope" by tempting the IJA to penetrate deep and early, and then closing their supply lines - delaying them more than if you'd just fallen back steadily.


Look at the SL. You'll soon notice that whether you say concentration or MLR it comes to the same thing. The map dictates where you can hold for a time, and you put troops where you have the best chance to do that. The ones in the woods aren't wasted, they're a deterrent, and with SL a very cheap one. You can still have concentration and have a front covered and maxed two or three hexes deep where the IJA are pushing, if they happen to be pushing. If they are not, then it might be best to cover the areas where they could go. Especially since there is little or no recon to give advanced notice.

Rope a dope? Good luck with that. That implies strength to last through plenty of punches. The Chinese just can't do that at this point.

They can move behind lines as guerrillas, but those are going to be shattered units bombarded from the air and hounded by tank regiments. If it's not possible to hold the line, how will the Chinese hold the block after letting the IJA through?

< Message edited by obvert -- 7/14/2014 10:47:43 PM >


_____________________________


"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 418
RE: Return of the Sheep! - 7/14/2014 11:19:02 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 5218
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


I've always held that the correct concept is concentrated resistance, rather than "lines." The IJA will break through eventually, and then you've got wasted troops. Better to concentrate them on the defensive, IMO.

But hey, I've lost China too, so maybe I'm wrong as well.


With Stacking Limits concentration occurs in every hex. If you're defending the roads only, you can still only put 65k troops on those in the better spots, 20k on some spots in the mountains. What do you do with the rest? What do you do if he moves into a wooded hex you haven't invested and gets control of it, and that hex has access to 3-4 more hexes behind your roadblock?


It means you picked a poor roadblock .

The rest should be moving back, back, back. I understand that you can only stack so many troops in the backfield as well. This comes with the disclaimer that I've never played with the SL map, but the IJA can still just push right over the Chinese if they want to. It requires prioritizing certain deployments.

With SLs, I suspect that my approach would be to modify the concentration of troops. You can't stack it all in one hex, obviously - but you can stack it in a small ring. A strongpoint of hexes rather than just one superstack. Look at the terrain and pick locations. I've already stated my opinions on your chosen foremost MLR and won't restate them here in case GJ is reading... There are a couple of obvious defensive locations in central China for small areas of concentration. Yes, they're farther back than Changsha, but you just can't do it up there, IMO. All of this is just speedbumps, part of my larger view that China is indefensible (even with SLs, I think, which just slows things down) and that the Allied goal here should be speedbumping and trying to bloody the IJA's nose when possible, buying time before those IJA LCUs are committed in Burma or other theaters. Buying said time prevents the Japan from establishing a large buffer in Burma/India (although you already have that against GJ), which is a major Allied strategic goal, IMO.

Viable areas for doing so:
1) Kukong and the surrounding rough hexes. Know that whatever you put here is going to get cut off and destroyed.
2) Chihkiang to Kweiyang. You can defend the 4 road crossings here and they are important roads for the IJA to hold if they want to move on Chungking. You can try speedbumping at Changteh, but he can just skip it, really.
3) Kweilin - speedbump here, because he can't skip it if he wants to use the railroad to Tuyun. If the IJA is impatient, you can establish lines of retreat up the goat track to the north.
4) Kweiyang, and the area just north.

I don't think SLs changes the big picture of how the IJA should advance very much. The same bases remain important. Defending in the middle of nowhere between Changsha and Kukong doesn't do the Chinese any good. Same with defending between Ankang and the central valley. The IJA has the ability to just circle around you, even through the rough hexes, so why waste your troops in the middle of nowhere?

If anything, SLs may make China even more impossible once the IJA reaches Chungking - the Chinese will become massively overstacked due to the resurrection rule, and suffer enormous supply and disruption penalties.

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

An MLR in an SL game is a way of saying you've maxed out the hexes the enemy has potential to attack and kept reserves behind to fill in should he gain some advantages in certain areas. It isn't putting troops in unnecessary hexes, because if you don't cover those hexes, as in real warfare, your opponent will simply move there before you can and he will have an advantage.

In a game without SL my opponent put 69 Chinese units in one hex, a road toward Kunming where there is little hope of going around. That works without SL, but with them concentration has to occur along a line of defense as well as in depth behind the front lines. There is no room for all of the troops otherwise for one, but of course this allows mobility and tactics to take precedence as well, which is why it's such a better game with SL.


MLRs themselves cover unnecessary hexes in China, IMO. The units are going to be getting an even smaller flow of supply if they are off the good roads. In India and Australia, MLRs may make sense.

IMO the Chinese should largely go into the western mountains and hope Chungking holds long enough to serve your strategic goals. You can also try a "rope a dope" by tempting the IJA to penetrate deep and early, and then closing their supply lines - delaying them more than if you'd just fallen back steadily.


Look at the SL. You'll soon notice that whether you say concentration or MLR it comes to the same thing. The map dictates where you can hold for a time, and you put troops where you have the best chance to do that. The ones in the woods aren't wasted, they're a deterrent, and with SL a very cheap one. You can still have concentration and have a front covered and maxed two or three hexes deep where the IJA are pushing, if they happen to be pushing. If they are not, then it might be best to cover the areas where they could go. Especially since there is little or no recon to give advanced notice.

Rope a dope? Good luck with that. That implies strength to last through plenty of punches. The Chinese just can't do that at this point.

They can move behind lines as guerrillas, but those are going to be shattered units bombarded from the air and hounded by tank regiments. If it's not possible to hold the line, how will the Chinese hold the block after letting the IJA through?


Not if the goal is strategic delay rather than "victory."

It's the two or three hexes deep along an entire line thing that I think is wrong and a wasted allocation of forces. Really, it's the concept of a line as an enormous defensive unit. My first/only attempt at installing SLs wasn't successful, but I intend to rectify this and if I can figure out how to set up a test game... I can quickly demonstrate, with the units available to both sides, exactly what I'm talking about.

That, or prove myself wrong.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 419
RE: Return of the Sheep! - 7/14/2014 11:28:17 PM   
obvert


Posts: 8985
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Not if the goal is strategic delay rather than "victory."

It's the two or three hexes deep along an entire line thing that I think is wrong and a wasted allocation of forces. Really, it's the concept of a line as an enormous defensive unit. My first/only attempt at installing SLs wasn't successful, but I intend to rectify this and if I can figure out how to set up a test game... I can quickly demonstrate, with the units available to both sides, exactly what I'm talking about.

That, or prove myself wrong.


Delay is all I'm after.

I finally see what you're up against here, but it seems you're basing this all on an assumption that a 'line' means two or three deep all along it's length. It certainly doesn't to me. Not sure why we're even having this discussion as I think we're advocating the exact same thing. You can look in my AAR and see good examples of this in the recent map I posted. Won't go farther into that here though.

This all started as I was trying to figure out exactly what Alfred's objections are to the defense in this game, not mine. I'm still interested in those specifics.

What is the correct concept if an MLR isn't it? Is MLR such a clearly defined term that it has to mean deep defense all along the line? I'm not a military historian so I may just be using a more specific term for a more vague concept myself. What is a better concept for Jocke in this game? Or for anyone playing the Allies in China?

_____________________________


"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 420
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