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Lily DB effective? - 5/31/2014 2:51:56 PM   
AirGriff


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I'm a new IJ player in a pbem and this aviation planning business is giving me conundrum after conundrum. One of the things I've discovered is that, due to the lack of effectiveness in TB units (rightly so as I understand it), I am chronically short on DB's. I was thinking of focusing some industry and pilots on the Lily DB. I'm not aware of any other IJA DB other that the Nick FB's, and my impression has been they aren't that effective in that role (at least from my allied experience). I'm curious what the higher wise men of the forum think about the Lily DB?

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RE: Lily DB effective? - 5/31/2014 2:58:28 PM   
joey


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I asked the same question some years ago. The wise men said then that the Lily was not worth the effort.
I cannot remember what the specific reasons were, but they were quite convincing. Since then, I never produced any of these planes.
I seem to remember it had to with the requirement for two engines and the small bomb load as compared to a medium bomber.

< Message edited by joey -- 5/31/2014 3:59:07 PM >

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RE: Lily DB effective? - 5/31/2014 5:35:57 PM   
SenToku

 

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I seem to remember that Lily DB had 2x100 kg bomb and that had larger armor- than soft damage. This means that Lily's ability against soft targets is almost nil. Level bomber carries 4X250 kg bombs, bigger damage against both targets, and even if it had lower accuracy, it does more damage against most targets.

Thing that came to mind as I tried to remember the Ki-48's specialities, has anyone tried DB LILY against armor? Could that thing be the ultimate anti-tank weapon? 100 kg bomb has decent anti-armor value, the Ki-48 is a dive bomber and carries 2 bombs, instead of single one of navy DBs and LILY has armor which gives it a chance against light/medium flak.

If the thing is effective, few specialist Ki-48-IIc sentais might not be bad idea.

(in reply to joey)
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RE: Lily DB effective? - 5/31/2014 5:43:30 PM   
obvert


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Captain Cruft in his recent (and continuing?) AAR has demonstrated the effectiveness of the Lily. He's used them to hit Allied TFs on several occasions, and they do just fine. (His AAR is on page two: The Hive)

Jakes on low naval work very well against merchants convoys as well with their 8/10 hex range and 4 x 60kg bombs.

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RE: Lily DB effective? - 6/1/2014 12:26:47 PM   
AirGriff


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Thank you, gents. I'll have to mull this over. Sounds like it could be a feasible build, but there are oh so many other priorities.

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RE: Lily DB effective? - 6/1/2014 2:13:30 PM   
jmalter

 

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As an AFB, I think that DB attacks against TFs are devastating, but the Lily's 100kg bomb won't bring enough hurt to Allied capital ships. I've found that DB attacks against LCU are much less effective, unless you can strike units in Move or Strat mode.

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RE: Lily DB effective? - 1/17/2015 2:05:26 PM   
Hyacinth

 

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Looking at the stats the dive bomber has reduced load of 2 x 100kg bombs.
Does this load and being a dive bomber make the later Lilys actually an great ASW plane?

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RE: Lily DB effective? - 1/17/2015 2:23:52 PM   
mind_messing

 

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The Lily dive-bomber is effective for several reasons. I've had decent results with them.

1. The range. You don't get many dive-bombers as Japan that can reach out to 11 hexes. The IJN is stuck with the short legs of the Val and early Judy models until the late-war dive bombers arrive.
2. It's an IJA plane, so you'll have plenty of pilots and plenty of air groups to train NavB pilots on.
3. It's the best (and more or less only) anti-shipping bomber for the IJA until the Peggy T comes along. It's a nice stop-gap to give the IJA some anti-shipping capacity.
4. It's an IJA plane, so Lily air-groups can take some strain off IJN bombers, and the IJA is suited to the high attrition that your dive-bomber pilots will suffer.

However, you need to temper your expectations. The 100kg bombs might tear the decks up on a carrier, but they'll struggle to sink one, and your bombs won't do much damage against anything heavier than a crusier. Even Allied destroyers can take a few 100kg bombs and still make it to port.

At the end of the day, it has a fairly niche role in attacking "soft" shipping targets (it can do ground attacks, but the regular level bombers are far better). If you use it in this role, it performs very well. If you decide to send Lily's out to sink some battleships, crusiers or carriers, you might be disapointed.

For me, the main value of the Lily is that it's an IJA airframe and it has some decent range.


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RE: Lily DB effective? - 1/17/2015 4:36:00 PM   
Hyacinth

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

The Lily dive-bomber is effective for several reasons. I've had decent results with them.

1. The range. You don't get many dive-bombers as Japan that can reach out to 11 hexes. The IJN is stuck with the short legs of the Val and early Judy models until the late-war dive bombers arrive.
2. It's an IJA plane, so you'll have plenty of pilots and plenty of air groups to train NavB pilots on.
3. It's the best (and more or less only) anti-shipping bomber for the IJA until the Peggy T comes along. It's a nice stop-gap to give the IJA some anti-shipping capacity.
4. It's an IJA plane, so Lily air-groups can take some strain off IJN bombers, and the IJA is suited to the high attrition that your dive-bomber pilots will suffer.

However, you need to temper your expectations. The 100kg bombs might tear the decks up on a carrier, but they'll struggle to sink one, and your bombs won't do much damage against anything heavier than a crusier. Even Allied destroyers can take a few 100kg bombs and still make it to port.

At the end of the day, it has a fairly niche role in attacking "soft" shipping targets (it can do ground attacks, but the regular level bombers are far better). If you use it in this role, it performs very well. If you decide to send Lily's out to sink some battleships, crusiers or carriers, you might be disapointed.

For me, the main value of the Lily is that it's an IJA airframe and it has some decent range.




I am only considering it for ASW, not even in anti-shipping role.

If it cant do that better than a Sally then there is no need for the Lily.

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RE: Lily DB effective? - 1/17/2015 4:42:53 PM   
mind_messing

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hyacinth


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

The Lily dive-bomber is effective for several reasons. I've had decent results with them.

1. The range. You don't get many dive-bombers as Japan that can reach out to 11 hexes. The IJN is stuck with the short legs of the Val and early Judy models until the late-war dive bombers arrive.
2. It's an IJA plane, so you'll have plenty of pilots and plenty of air groups to train NavB pilots on.
3. It's the best (and more or less only) anti-shipping bomber for the IJA until the Peggy T comes along. It's a nice stop-gap to give the IJA some anti-shipping capacity.
4. It's an IJA plane, so Lily air-groups can take some strain off IJN bombers, and the IJA is suited to the high attrition that your dive-bomber pilots will suffer.

However, you need to temper your expectations. The 100kg bombs might tear the decks up on a carrier, but they'll struggle to sink one, and your bombs won't do much damage against anything heavier than a crusier. Even Allied destroyers can take a few 100kg bombs and still make it to port.

At the end of the day, it has a fairly niche role in attacking "soft" shipping targets (it can do ground attacks, but the regular level bombers are far better). If you use it in this role, it performs very well. If you decide to send Lily's out to sink some battleships, crusiers or carriers, you might be disapointed.

For me, the main value of the Lily is that it's an IJA airframe and it has some decent range.




I am only considering it for ASW, not even in anti-shipping role.

If it cant do that better than a Sally then there is no need for the Lily.



That is a mistake, on both counts. There are far better airframes for ASW than the Lily. The early model of the Helen, for example, has a much better bombload and superior range to the Lily dive bomber, so is far better suited to ASW work than the Lily DB (and you'll be building them anyways for the regular bomber groups).

The fact that the Lily DB version can dive bomb has no impact on ASW attacks (AFAIK, unless Alfred swings in with a post to some forgotten dev comment somewhere).

The Lily's real value is that it gives you an IJA airframe that can put bombs accurately onto small warships, allowing you to use IJN DB groups for training or use elsewhere.

(in reply to Hyacinth)
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RE: Lily DB effective? - 1/17/2015 4:53:10 PM   
Hyacinth

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hyacinth


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

The Lily dive-bomber is effective for several reasons. I've had decent results with them.

1. The range. You don't get many dive-bombers as Japan that can reach out to 11 hexes. The IJN is stuck with the short legs of the Val and early Judy models until the late-war dive bombers arrive.
2. It's an IJA plane, so you'll have plenty of pilots and plenty of air groups to train NavB pilots on.
3. It's the best (and more or less only) anti-shipping bomber for the IJA until the Peggy T comes along. It's a nice stop-gap to give the IJA some anti-shipping capacity.
4. It's an IJA plane, so Lily air-groups can take some strain off IJN bombers, and the IJA is suited to the high attrition that your dive-bomber pilots will suffer.

However, you need to temper your expectations. The 100kg bombs might tear the decks up on a carrier, but they'll struggle to sink one, and your bombs won't do much damage against anything heavier than a crusier. Even Allied destroyers can take a few 100kg bombs and still make it to port.

At the end of the day, it has a fairly niche role in attacking "soft" shipping targets (it can do ground attacks, but the regular level bombers are far better). If you use it in this role, it performs very well. If you decide to send Lily's out to sink some battleships, crusiers or carriers, you might be disapointed.

For me, the main value of the Lily is that it's an IJA airframe and it has some decent range.




I am only considering it for ASW, not even in anti-shipping role.

If it cant do that better than a Sally then there is no need for the Lily.



That is a mistake, on both counts. There are far better airframes for ASW than the Lily. The early model of the Helen, for example, has a much better bombload and superior range to the Lily dive bomber, so is far better suited to ASW work than the Lily DB (and you'll be building them anyways for the regular bomber groups).

The fact that the Lily DB version can dive bomb has no impact on ASW attacks (AFAIK, unless Alfred swings in with a post to some forgotten dev comment somewhere).

The Lily's real value is that it gives you an IJA airframe that can put bombs accurately onto small warships, allowing you to use IJN DB groups for training or use elsewhere.


So it is not more accurate in attacking subs but is for other ships? Sometimes confusing this game.

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RE: Lily DB effective? - 1/17/2015 5:04:37 PM   
Lokasenna


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It depends on what you're hitting with them. It does have decent range. The 100kg bombs won't sink a modern cruiser, but it can mess up pre-war DDs and merchants.

There is an accuracy boost to dive bombing, and on top of that the Lily has 2 bombs which gives it a further boost simply because 2 chances to hit is better than 1.


You'd not use it in an ASW role because 100kg bombs just won't sink USN subs. You might send them back to base after a "hit"... but the Helen carries 250kg bombs even on ASW, and gets radar later in the war, so is the best IJAAF ASW platform due to range/load/radar.

< Message edited by Lokasenna -- 1/17/2015 6:06:08 PM >

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RE: Lily DB effective? - 1/17/2015 9:09:49 PM   
Kull


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

That is a mistake, on both counts. There are far better airframes for ASW than the Lily. The early model of the Helen, for example, has a much better bombload and superior range to the Lily dive bomber, so is far better suited to ASW work than the Lily DB (and you'll be building them anyways for the regular bomber groups).


The question is, are you playing with PDU off or PDU on? If the latter, yes upgrade all your Lilys to Helens. But if you have PDU off, then most of your Lilys won't upgrade to anything other than higher-level Lily models, and the remainder won't upgrade outside the Lily path until you reach late 1944 or 1945. Accordingly, in a PDU-off game, Lilys are a key component of your ASW system.

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RE: Lily DB effective? - 1/18/2015 2:17:52 PM   
Lowpe

 

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There can be vast quiet times in this game, especially in 43, where using the Lilly DB in an ASW role makes sense....

Lilly DB is a fragile plane for a divebomber, and Fletcher AA can really chew them up. Depending upon the game, they can be very useful and of course the best part is they are Army.

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 1/18/2015 3:18:33 PM >

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RE: Lily DB effective? - 1/18/2015 2:24:34 PM   
Yaab


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But isn't Lily the most durable from all IJA/IJA dive-bombers?

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