Racial woes...

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Spidey
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Racial woes...

Post by Spidey »

So I'm having a blast, doing what I do, until I crash into a damn Atuuk homeworld. Believe it or not, this was actually the first time these useless little furry meatbags have been blessed with the honor of being part of my empire. And suddenly I've got these walking bug-snacks all over my beautiful empire, cluttering up space that could be used for members of a productive species.

As ridiculous as it is to say this, I'm feeling a bit like I'm suffering from a pest infection, only there's no way to exterminate these overgrown rats without also killing all the useful Ketarovs and Naxxilians. I could game editor the problem away but that feels rather cheap and it's a temporary solution anyway to what might become a problem in other games.

This made me wonder what the rest of the DW community think about racial integration? Any good or bad experiences? Any races you really love adding? Any races you utterly despise infecting your civilization?

Until now, I was perfectly happy with full assimilation of everybody. Most of the races seem to provide me with empire bonuses and those few who don't have individual colony-based bonuses. But Atuuks? What the hell are they good for other than making carpets out of them that you don't mind your dog urinating on out of general spite? And the truly annoying thing is that if you take over a world with 5 billion of the damn things, it takes forever to kill them off, during which time they're all whiny about dying while your reputation is for all intents and purposes taking a gentle bath in a public toilet.

What I've ended up deciding upon is assimilate my family (amphibs) and do not accept anyone else. This is sort of a shame since I'd love to have just about anyone else come by in as large numbers as they care to bring, but I just can't stand this Atuuk infestation everywhere. I suppose they'll be excellent tax subjects due to good enough growth and Atuuk-dominated colonies being extra happy, but they're slow builders, they're continentals so no exotic colonizations opening up, and if one colonizes with them anyway then that just opens up the problem of barely sentient Atuuk swarms even more.
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Darkspire
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RE: Racial woes...

Post by Darkspire »

If it makes you feel any better I did put in some serious suggestions for enslaving them and getting them to make all the manufactured goods during testing, penal colonies full of furry folk that do nothing but work at making Xbox 4000's and other assorted goodies [:D]

This yet again boils down to that old chestnut, separate race polices for each race, unfortunately it can not be done, I can't go into detail due to the NDA (I shall probably get hit by lightning for mentioning my dastardly plans for the furry folk in my previous statement), but it was explained why, so we have to put up with them, I myself try to get as many as I can of the furry bar stewards at a colony and nuke it from orbit, just to be sure, doesn't wipe them all out but it makes me feel better.

Darkspire
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ChildServices
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RE: Racial woes...

Post by ChildServices »

I'd like it if we could get some seriously scary final solution-tier stuff going with regards to alien races in the next expansion or in DW2.

I don't like how you're unable to set policy for each individual race, and only able to set policy for your family and then everybody else's. If we could set relationships for each race individually that'd be excellent. It'd allow us to remove atuuk without bothering any of the other [s]sub-sapients[/s] citizens in our empire. At least allow us to single out a specific family.
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Darkspire
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RE: Racial woes...

Post by Darkspire »

ORIGINAL: ChildServices

I'd like it if we could get some seriously scary final solution-tier stuff going with regards to alien races in the next expansion or in DW2.

I don't like how you're unable to set policy for each individual race, and only able to set policy for your family and then everybody else's. If we could set relationships for each race individually that'd be excellent. It'd allow us to remove atuuk without bothering any of the other [s]sub-sapients[/s] citizens in our empire. At least allow us to single out a specific family.

The issue of separate race polices, being able to designate what you want to do regards assimilation, extermination etc of a given race has been an issue for a good few years, as I mentioned sadly it can not be done at present, but we live in hope that in that it be high on the consider list for DW2.

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RE: Racial woes...

Post by Aeson »

I'd like it if we could get some seriously scary final solution-tier stuff going with regards to alien races in the next expansion or in DW2.
To be perfectly honest, we already have some incredibly scary Final Solution-tier stuff that we can do with regards to alien races. For that matter, in terms of what you can accomplish with it, it goes way beyond Final Solution scary - the Holocaust 'only' managed to kill off ~6 million Jews, out of ~9 million prior to the start of the Second World War, plus a couple million other 'undesirables.' This is nothing compared to the hundreds of millions to billions that the 'exterminate' order can allow. Even assuming you started with a relatively low population of the undesired alien type, you're not likely to have fewer than a couple tens of millions of each species, and 'exterminate' can reduce that down to only 1 million of each species. The only point where the 'exterminate' policy in Distant Worlds is 'lacking' in comparison to the Holocaust and Final Solution is in how specifically you can target the 'undesirables,' not in how effective it is. In terms of the percentage of the population killed, Distant Worlds extermination is far more effective - you're looking at >90% of the pre-extermination population being killed off, as compared to ~67% from the Holocaust, unless your starting population of undesired aliens comes only from a handful of incidental migrants (and even then, you're probably looking at initial populations of at least a few million, which puts the extermination percentage on par with the Holocaust).
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ChildServices
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RE: Racial woes...

Post by ChildServices »

That's not quite what I'm talking about. I know how [s]fun[/s] devastating the exterminate policy is, I usually play the Boskara [s]master race[/s].

To add onto that, though, I really don't think we have enough "options" for being dastardly and stepping on every other species or, in the least (to tie in with the subject of racial assimilation [s]and also probably the holocaust[/s]), singling out specific aliens to be "removed" from our empire. You certainly can be dastardly on a huge and terrifying scale, but you don't have enough means of being dastardly. There's not enough variety when it comes to doing truly dastardly things.

One more way of being dastardly to aliens would be to add some more aggressive enslavement mechanics; like having slaver ships that dock with enemy planets and kidnap people to be taken away to die in labour camps, sort of like what the Zuul in Sword of the Stars do.
You could even have a slave market where other dastardly empires can buy slaves from you. You'd even be able to get pirates to run "people smuggling" missions to your penal colonies if you added something like that in the sequel. You'd be able to play a game where you're like the Barbary Corsairs, who were known for raiding the South and West coasts of Europe to take (white) slaves and sell them back in the Middle East.
Hell, you could make money off of basically selling the races you don't want. It'd probably be the most ethically questionable thing to appear in a strategy game, but at least you'd make that Atuuk problem somebody else's.
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Spidey
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RE: Racial woes...

Post by Spidey »

That sounds heart-warming, Darkspire. At least I'm not alone in wanting to introduce a new delicacy to insectoid cultures. It's too bad about the engine limitation but I guess we can't have everything. At least not until DW2. [:)]

ChildServices, I would argue that we can in some ways go quite a bit beyond "Final Solution" in that the nazis merely killed people while we can, in principle, relocate just about all of the undesired critters to a few melting pot worlds and then "clean the pots" with a world destroyer. I don't really like that plan, since even highly irradiated real estate is better than completely blown up real estate, and I also don't have a world destroyer available at the moment, but it should be doable if the motivation is high enough.
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Spidey
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RE: Racial woes...

Post by Spidey »

Anyway, I don't really want this topic to be all doom and gloom over the lack of sufficiently effective extermination options. We might end up scaring new visitors and earn a reputation for being into this sort of thing.

So instead of further complaints about the funny Atuuk group activities I can't implement in the game, such as "The Running Atuuk" (one Atuuk get a machine gun and two million credits for surviving, 50 Atuuks get wooden sticks and one million if they land the killing blow), or the mandatory school subject called "how to juggle with running chainsaws", I went ahead and wrote down my thoughts on the different species and how I see their potential as members of my empire.

Ackdarians
Their direct bonuses are +research and -maintenance. On top of this, Acky-majored colonies build things 50% faster than default. That's pretty damn nice, I think. They're an ocean race too, which isn't impossible to research, but it still saves some time. Give me as many of these as you can throw at me.

Atuuk
Yuck. They have a fairly boring happiness bonus and that's it. Happiness isn't a global bonus but instead something that only manifests on Atuuk-majored colonies. On top of this, they build 25% slower. This doesn't affect your space ports over Atuuk colonies but it does affect the colonies themselves, which will cap at 450 instead of 600. AFAIK, build speed is essentially the number of constructed components per six day period times 100 and ROUNDED DOWN, so 10 billion Atuuks produce 4 components for every 6 anyone else does or for every 9 Ackies do. Oh, and they're continentals, which is both rather common and fairly easy to research. Oh, and did I mention that Atuuk troops are the second weakest in the game at 68 strength? They make pushovers look like badasses. There is one single upside, though. They have the fastest growth rate of all the continentals at a whopping 28%, but as far as I'm concerned, this simply means they're even more likely to overtake races with good colony bonuses.

Boskara
Their default troop strength is 134. Throw in aculon and it becomes 139. Oh, and their troops cost 25% less maintenance too. Build an armor factory and you'll have some mighty powerful troops and they'll be cheap too. Also, they're volcanics and researching that one is a pain in the butt. Also, their growth rate is 24%, which is pretty good. I don't mind these bugs joining the winning side at all. The sooner the better, actually, because a late game Boskaran faction with a horde of beetle warriors can take a while to sort out.

Dhayut
Big ugly psychotic desert spider thingies as they may be, they do at least make some fairly solid troops. Their default strength is 126 with +5 if you've got osalia to spare. Their growth rate isn't all that hot and desert colonization isn't that hard to get but overall they're at least adding something.

Gizureans
They've got a massive -35% ship maintenance, they're volcanics, and their growth rate is immense at 30% before their cycle kicks in. Their troops are kind of useless but so what when you can make ship costs drop rather massively while also getting indirect access to a planet colonization tech that's otherwise reserved for late game? I really hope to have these nearby when I'm playing Quameno but sadly it never happens. If it did, I'd probably let them do most of the colonization since they grow so damn fast.

Humans
Weird monkeys with no hair. They don't make for nice pets, but their troops are okay at strength 121 and they do provide a global bonus to both research and spies, which makes them worth including. They're yet another continental race and their growth bonus is okay'ish without being immense, but I wouldn't feel bad with these critters gaining numbers in my empire.

Haakonish
They're so ugly I want to punch them in their sad excuse of a face, but they do provide global bonuses to spies and reduced maintenance and their troops are only slightly weaker than Dhayuts at 124. Everything else about them screams for an extended stay in a prison camp, but I'm not really one to look a gift horse in the mouth, and global bonuses sure are nice.

Ikkuro
Another race that I really like having nearby. They give reduced ship maintenance, their troops clock in at a really nice 132, they get +5 troop strength if you bring the osalia, and their troops cost a lovely 30% less in maintenance. Oh, and they've got +10% colony income too, which I recall to be a global bonus. What's not to love? Well, they're continentals for one and their growth is mediocre for another. Still, I'll take 'em with a big smile on my face.

Ketarov
Swamp-dwelling critters with a mediocre growth rate and piss weak troops aren't really "my thing", but having a +50% bonus to spies makes up for a lot. There really isn't too much else to say about them.

Kiadian
Probably my favorite continental race. They give global bonuses o research and ship maintenance, their growth rate is just on the high side of mediocre, and their troop strength is solid at 126. I haven't experimented much with the energy research bonus since I've so far never managed to "include" these people in my empire until pretty close to the point where I've won the game anyway, but I'm guessing it applies to Kiadian-majored colonies. And if so then who can say no to that sort of potential bonus?

Mortalen
Their troops have a default strength of 138. That's enough to go toe-to-appendage with Boskarans and it's quite good enough that I'm happy to include them in my empire, but their troops also cost 25% less and if that's still not enough then they'll even add -10% ship maintenance on top. That's one heck of a deal, as far as I'm concerned. They don't really provide much of anything else, though. They're a desert species, which is nice but not awesome, and their growth rate of 16% isn't terrible but it also isn't amazing.

Naxxilians
Big furry reptiles that live on ice worlds (yay!) and produce very solid troops at strength 129 with a +10 (!!) bonus if you've got jakanta ivory and a -40% maintenance cost on their troops. Oh, and their growth rate is a very respectable 23%. Having these not-so-gentle creatures in your empire solves both the need to research an annoyingly expensive late game colonization tech and it gives you some truly excellent troops that are amazingly cheap. At least I very much like stregnth 139 armor at a base maintenance cost of 1200, but maybe that's just me.

Quameno
These amphibs would be pretty boring guests in your empire if it wasn't for that really immense 40% research bonus they offer. They're an ocean race but their growth is quite low at 14%, so that's not really a reason to invite them in, but come on, 40% research. That's just hard to pass up on, isn't it?

Securans
A bunch of wimps and slackers that don't provide global bonuses they may be, but they sure do multiply. These are probably my preferred desert species, if only because they grow their numbers so damn fast. Their base is 27% and every three years they start a one year super-growth phase. Those percentages add up rather quickly. They also have a truly massive happiness bonus, which while not exactly super-helpful is at least a nice touch. And I know I'm not supposed to say this, but who can turn down irresistably hot green-skins?

Shandar
What do you get if you convert Securans into volcanic-based lizards, and dampen their growth and happiness slightly? Yup, you get the Shandar. They're not quite as lovable as the Securans and they're not my favorite volcanic race at all, but they are volcanic and they do grow reasonably fast, so I tolerate their useless hippie ways. Oh, and while their troops are rather terrible, they at least don't have any significant drawbacks.

Sluken
I know what most people are thinking. Why would anyone invite angry swamp bugs into their civilization? Well, their troops do clock in at a very nice 130 with +5 for questurian skins and with a 20% maintenance reduction. They don't really do anything for the empire outright, and their native swampiness isn't that useful either, but their 21% growth rate is the fastest you'll get for a swamp race.

Teekan
At first glance they might look like desert-Atuuks. They're literally rat-like weenies with paper cutouts for troops (strength 65) and a fairly mediocre reproduction rate of 19%. But they do at least have some bonuses. Faster mining is, in my experience, not that valuable but +20% colony income isn't too bad and they do have a build speed bonus of 40% as well, so they're not the total disaster that Atuuks are. Smelly as they may be, their presence in my empire doesn't really offend me.

Ugnari
Ugh. Overgrown pink rats, right? And their main bonuses are faster mining and happines, neither of which are particularly significant. And they're gifted with slow growth on top. And their troops weak as piss too. Those are the negatives. The positives? There are two ice-based races in the game. This is one of them. If they're around then I'm happy and will do what I can to keep them the dominant race on the colony so I can colonize ice worlds long before I'd otherwise get the damn tech researched. They've also got a +5% bonus to high tech research per colony with tyderios, which may or may not carry over, and if it does carry over then that's not really going to make me like them less.

Wekkarus
Ugly squid-faced things, absolutely, but they could be a lot worse. They don't really offer a lot but +15% mining and +25% colony income isn't terrible either. They aren't Ackies of Quameni, but I generally accept their presence stoically and try not to think too much about the uglies that are swimming around on my water bowl planets.

Zenox
Happy cat-people that provide a maintenance reduction? I guess I'm biased since I was sold at "cat", but you've got to put something on continental planets and it may as well include a good number of Zenoxes. That said, I'd still rather have Kiadians or Ikkurus and probably even Humans too, but I'm still going to welcome Zenox with open arms.
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Keston
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RE: Racial woes...

Post by Keston »

Thoughts on the Universe Extended races as candidates for citizenship?
Airpower
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RE: Racial woes...

Post by Airpower »

Spidey, that's an awesome list, thanks man.

I'm curious though - how does having a volcanic species in your empire allow you to colonize volcanic planets???
Nanaki
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RE: Racial woes...

Post by Nanaki »

If you build a colony ship at a planet, the colony ship will be 'populated' with the majority species. If that majority species native is volcanic, then it can colonize volcanic planets.
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mensrea
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RE: Racial woes...

Post by mensrea »

This entered into plagues.txt would work. Just change "Undesirables" to the race in question. You could even set it up so that you can research and deploy it like the Xaraktor virus.

4, Street Sweeper, 0, 0.001, 0, 1, 10, Y, Undesirables, 5.0, 1000, 1200, 0, The Street Sweeper virus was designed to rid the galaxy of undesirables ranging from Atuuks to those funny looking seal people.
Cauldyth
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RE: Racial woes...

Post by Cauldyth »

OMG, that's so awesome.

Modders, get on it!
Airpower
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RE: Racial woes...

Post by Airpower »

ORIGINAL: Nanaki

If you build a colony ship at a planet, the colony ship will be 'populated' with the majority species. If that majority species native is volcanic, then it can colonize volcanic planets.

SWEET, thanks!
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Retreat1970
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RE: Racial woes...

Post by Retreat1970 »

[:(]
Tormodino
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RE: Racial woes...

Post by Tormodino »

Don't worry Retreat1970. They simply do not understand the power of joyous breeding.

Btw, is it really not possible to create more categories for the population policies? It sounds strange that it is impossible to have more options than we currently do.
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Keston
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RE: Racial woes...

Post by Keston »

Maybe the options are tailored to what the AI can handle. We would all like to be more selective in applying policies. I would like to find out how to get the various races to collect themselves on appropriate planets for their natural and other abilities and affinities.
spiralaxis
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RE: Racial woes...

Post by spiralaxis »

What's the limit on the number of race families? Could you not just make each race its own family?
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Tcby
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RE: Racial woes...

Post by Tcby »

Population policies only cover 2 categories: your family and every other one. So giving every race its own family wouldn't change anything, unfortunately.
Kilravock
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RE: Racial woes...

Post by Kilravock »

That's sad to hear that individual race population polices will not happen. I hate it when I start next to a breeder race like the Giz or Atuuk. Their rapid growth not only causes them to be the dominate race on most colonies, but ruins the challenge as my empire's population explodes. My passenger ships will always merrily go to their colonies to bring home immigrates. In a few short years they spread like a plague and become the dominate race if I leave the policies on assimilate.

In my current prewarp game I started next to both. The Giz never research Warp Bubble, but they won the game since they are the dominate race in my empire. The only planets they don't 'control' where the colonies that I set to resettle, do not accept or were close to the Atuuk, which the Atuuk controlled.

This game has the same effect of causing you to become a monster as Crusader Kings II does.

That's a good list Spidey.
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