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RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR) - 6/19/2014 5:15:28 PM   
STEF78


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oshawott

Displayed CV of these three units was 4 at the beginning of my turn (see screenshot). So that is half of what you calculated. Then take into account failed leader checks and air bombardment. Also, displayed CV is based on fortification level of 1 but my sappers reduced the fort to 0. I will show the combat in my AAR.

May be I'm wrong but 4 on your screenshot refers to MP, not CV. We are in a mud turn.

But in fact it doesn't matter, you killed them efficiently

(in reply to Oshawott)
Post #: 61
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR) - 6/19/2014 5:21:28 PM   
Oshawott

 

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quote:

May be I'm wrong but 4 on your screenshot refers to MP, not CV. We are in a mud turn.


Nope, second number is defensive CV.

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 62
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR) - 6/19/2014 5:21:41 PM   
STEF78


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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: smokindave34

Loss of 3 panzers divisions this early in the war really hurts. It's going to take a while to get their morale back up to a respectable value.



aye, that has to hurt, any offensive that Stef78 was planning must have been on a shoestring with almost no margin in any case, and he's now lost the equivalent of a Pzr Corp for most of this year?


Losing 3 Pzd (2 in fact due tu 10th withdrawal in may 1942) and a mot early in may 1942 is clearly not a good news.

For the second time in this game I got the same lesson: adapt your gameplay to your opponent!

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 63
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR) - 6/19/2014 5:31:11 PM   
STEF78


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oshawott

quote:

May be I'm wrong but 4 on your screenshot refers to MP, not CV. We are in a mud turn.


Nope, second number is defensive CV.

Sorry of being insistant, I'm not native english

I took the original WITE manual page 58

Unit Graphic: Displays CV-MP mode with currently selected soft factor and movement status.

Where is my misundertanding?

(in reply to Oshawott)
Post #: 64
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR) - 6/19/2014 5:38:09 PM   
STEF78


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I also took the french translation

Pion : celui-ci affiche les valeurs de combat-capacité de déplacement ainsi que les indicateurs et le statut de déplacement actuels.

That's the same.

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Post #: 65
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR) - 6/19/2014 5:40:19 PM   
STEF78


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

I can't help but fear that Stef has run into 1943 a year early. This looks very bad for the Axis side.



The "Final Victory" is still achievable!

(in reply to jwolf)
Post #: 66
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR) - 6/19/2014 5:42:09 PM   
STEF78


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oshawott

quote:

Loss of 3 panzers divisions this early in the war really hurts. It's going to take a while to get their morale back up to a respectable value.


Question for Axis specialists. 10th Panzer is scheduled for withdrawal. Does it come back as an empty shell and is then withdrawn or does it simply disappear?

It will come back at full strength but units on withdrawal status are always on refit mode so they also leave close from their full strength

(in reply to Oshawott)
Post #: 67
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR) - 6/19/2014 5:42:48 PM   
STEF78


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double post


< Message edited by STEF78 -- 6/19/2014 6:43:16 PM >

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Post #: 68
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR) - 6/19/2014 5:48:44 PM   
morvael


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Cut off units may have their CV divided by 10 in combat, also they suffer from supply shortages affecting CV, which normally is not affecting units (as they are assumed to be drawing new supplies from base). Basically, isolated units have some chance in port and big city, otherwise they are doomed on the next turn.

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 69
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR) - 6/19/2014 5:50:28 PM   
morvael


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Also, when you see X-Y on counter, then Y is MP. When you see X=Z on counter, then Z is defensive CV. Enemy units are always shown as X=Z, whereas one can select display mode for own units using the z key. I always use the CV=CV mode.

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Post #: 70
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR) - 6/19/2014 6:22:49 PM   
STEF78


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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Also, when you see X-Y on counter, then Y is MP. When you see X=Z on counter, then Z is defensive CV. Enemy units are always shown as X=Z, whereas one can select display mode for own units using the z key. I always use the CV=CV mode.

Thanks a lot!

After more than 2 years of play, I finally can read a counter!

Time to go back to school, but german was my first foreign language then English but there was no "wargame lesson". Only a lot of useless words such as fork, plate, knife...

Surprising, as English aren't renown for their cooking ability

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 71
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR) - 6/19/2014 7:44:49 PM   
Flaviusx


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I'm afraid you timed this rather badly and let the Sov get the drop on you in the mud turns knowing that he could be super aggressive against a very weak encirclement. You should've imo instead have struck in such a way that it dislocated his line and set you up for a coup de grace when the weather flipped back to clear. I don't like the place you chose to strike, either, I would've tried to head SE towards the Sea of Azov rather than due east, again, not creating an encirclement prematurely, but totally throwing him off his stride and making his entire southern position untenable. He would have a difficult time backing out of that during mud if you did it right and aimed at the correct rail junctions.



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Post #: 72
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR) - 6/19/2014 9:06:27 PM   
STEF78


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You're right.

Looking at the poor result of this first encirclement I can do nothing but admit my mistake.

I thought about several plans for this may/june period. One of them was a pincer from South Kherson, north Zaporoje but the defences east of Kherson were too strong.

Right now I'm in bad shape but it doesn't only comme from this "weak" encirclement. It also comes from the low level of losses inflicted to the russians during summer 1941.

I begun the game the way I finished against Frogmarc but Oshawott is obviously a far better russian player...

I'm convinced that his 1942's style of defence will become the new soviet standard. End of the ants carpet.

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 73
Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR) - 6/20/2014 9:46:12 PM   
STEF78


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Turn 51, 4th june 1942

2nd consecutive mud turn. Cleaning of the tiny Pocket begins. Most russian units will escape.


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Post #: 74
Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR) - 6/24/2014 6:46:48 PM   
STEF78


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Turn 52, 11th june 1942

This time the Pocket is sealed. Nothing to be proud about...


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Post #: 75
Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR) - 6/26/2014 6:13:05 AM   
STEF78


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Turn 54, 25th june 1942

A view of the center part of the front and of the soviet lines. It looks like a hive of bee, you can break a wall, it does not put in danger the global structure of the fortification.


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Post #: 76
Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR) - 6/26/2014 6:37:47 AM   
STEF78


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My early offensive in may failed due to the alternance of mud/clear turn, the excellent organisation of soviet defence and counterattacks and some operational mistakes in my first encirclement.

As stated by Flaviusx:
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

The timing was off because you didn't coordinate things with mud in mind. For example, that encirclement you executed. The very next turn following would be mud. The Soviet was therefore in a perfect position to throw the kitchen sink at it, break it up, and isolate some of your own units leaving you with no means to respond. You shouldn't have tried to do this encirclement in the first place given the weather sequence.

You also, as I have stated elsewhere, did it in the wrong place. The operation you mounted had only limited local significance even if it had worked. Your true strategic goal should have been to dislocate the very long Soviet line by striking south east towards the Sea of Azov and capturing or wrecking the rail junctions in the area, thus stranding the whole southern concentration. No encirclement was immediately necessary to do this. It would be a straightforward penetration timed to coincide with mud and leave several Soviet fronts stranded from the Dnepr bend south, with no means to flee east and trapped against the south. These could be corralled against the Crimea in due course. The eastern ukraine would then be opened up for further operations once the weather cleared up. You could even turn his flank and start munching away in a north easterly direction -- this would be the right time to conduct encirclements of a war winning nature.

So I object to what you did on larger strategic grounds. The opportunity to do this has now passed. You are decisively engaged in a battle of attrition with the Red Army that has to favor the Soviet.


But I don't think that it would have been different while attacking from Dniepropetrovsk to Azov.

The key isn't the gain of some kilometers but the destruction of the soviet army. Attacking to the South without being able to create a Pocket is useless.

My problem is the size of the soviet army not the capture of Azov.

An it doesn't appear on my map but Oshawott had already back lines of defence prepared in the South.

So I maintain my opinion, my target was right but my operational execution wrong




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Post #: 77
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR) - 6/26/2014 6:53:02 AM   
loki100


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really admire you for sticking with this game, those numbers are scary.

It takes no genius to offer the view that you have problems now, and in a game which tends to 'rich get richer' dynamics.

Laying aside whether you picked the right target/place/time for your last operation, I guess the real question is whether you can really dent the Red Army now by conducting a series of army sized encirclements (thinking of the way you dismantled Frogmarc) or if your only chance is to go for a single strategic encirclement and hope that does enough damage (accepting it is a very high risk choice).

promises to be a fascinating read in any case

about fixed/random weather. I think this phase of 1942 is where non-random weather really favours the Soviets over the Germans and one reason why random opens up the uncertainty. As FlaviusX said in the other thread, Oshawatt was able to operate with certainty, he should have been faced with a dilemna of escalating his losses by counterattacking so hard.

< Message edited by loki100 -- 6/26/2014 7:56:16 AM >


_____________________________

AARs:
WiTW: Once Upon a Time (somewhere)in the West; Fischia il vento; (oh) For a few Panzers More; XXX Corps Diary; Infamy, Infamy!
Others at AGEOD
PoN: A clear bright sun

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 78
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR) - 6/26/2014 7:22:00 AM   
Flaviusx


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STEF, the idea here is to set yourself up for encirclement operations later. First, the integrity of the Soviet Front needs to be broken up; there's a good two fronts (maybe 3) from the Dnepr bend south that could be put in a position where they cannot directly support the rest of the front and can only be redeployed slowly once the rail lines are cut and the German army is marching east of them towards Stalino. And mud would hinder them on top of that.

Once the weather clears up you smash your way east and force the Red Army to deploy his reserves to cover the Ukraine rather than smashing directly into your face in the center in what looks to me like nothing so much as Kursk a year in advance.

This movement opens things up and creates future opportunities where you hold the initiative. But the best chance to do this has come and past and now things will very likely bog down.

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Post #: 79
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR) - 6/26/2014 11:07:33 AM   
STEF78


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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

really admire you for sticking with this game, those numbers are scary.

They are!!!! But in fact I prefer a hard game like this one than a cake walk like the game against frogmarc. You learn more from strong opponents

quote:


It takes no genius to offer the view that you have problems now, and in a game which tends to 'rich get richer' dynamics.

Agreed. I had problems during 1941, heavy problems during blizzard, huge problems right now! I'm behind the curve but still living.


quote:


Laying aside whether you picked the right target/place/time for your last operation, I guess the real question is whether you can really dent the Red Army now by conducting a series of army sized encirclements (thinking of the way you dismantled Frogmarc) or if your only chance is to go for a single strategic encirclement and hope that does enough damage (accepting it is a very high risk choice).

promises to be a fascinating read in any case

It will be hard but I have some ideas. I also hope that we are not yet mid 1943



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Post #: 80
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR) - 6/26/2014 11:12:46 AM   
STEF78


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

STEF, the idea here is to set yourself up for encirclement operations later. First, the integrity of the Soviet Front needs to be broken up; there's a good two fronts (maybe 3) from the Dnepr bend south that could be put in a position where they cannot directly support the rest of the front and can only be redeployed slowly once the rail lines are cut and the German army is marching east of them towards Stalino. And mud would hinder them on top of that.

Once the weather clears up you smash your way east and force the Red Army to deploy his reserves to cover the Ukraine rather than smashing directly into your face in the center in what looks to me like nothing so much as Kursk a year in advance.

This movement opens things up and creates future opportunities where you hold the initiative. But the best chance to do this has come and past and now things will very likely bog down.

May be you were right but I'm really not sure that a single frontal attack would have succeeded. Oshawott had at least 4 lines of defence and some of them were as far as Stalino and the Don river!!

At least I wouldn't have lost 3 Pzd and a Mot

About these one, 3 are back and gaing morale and experience at a high rate (especially for morale)

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Post #: 81
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR) - 6/26/2014 12:32:13 PM   
jwolf

 

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I just want to echo my awe, fear, and amazement at Oshawott's 1942 Red Army. He has an OOB about 2 million higher than the 1942 starting figures for the Soviets, with much better organization, depth, and strength.

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Post #: 82
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR) - 6/26/2014 5:46:42 PM   
STEF78


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

I just want to echo my awe, fear, and amazement at Oshawott's 1942 Red Army. He has an OOB about 2 million higher than the 1942 starting figures for the Soviets, with much better organization, depth, and strength.

I already faced a stronger SHC army in june 1942 (it was Schacha's army) but mine was also much healthy!!!



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Post #: 83
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR) - 6/26/2014 6:31:39 PM   
morvael


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In my game vs cpt flam at this point I had 7.5M vs 5.2M (though I had 7.3k AFVs). Amazing army!

< Message edited by morvael -- 6/26/2014 7:32:05 PM >

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Post #: 84
Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR) - 6/27/2014 10:00:03 PM   
STEF78


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Turn 57, 16th july 1942

I just forgot to mention another little problem of the german side...


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Post #: 85
Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR) - 6/28/2014 12:33:49 PM   
STEF78


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Turn 60, 6th august 1942

Grinding fights in several parts of the front. Nothing decisive.

I will focus on Odessa. The city is strongly defended



quote:

ORIGINAL: Saper222

If you want take Odessa you must bombing port - easy to take it, Soviet cannot air cover it.

I already tried some ports bombing and did some at the end of turn 59. I decided to make a strong effort this turn.

The results are better



But is it worth the price?



What is the real effect of being unsupply? I read divided by ten but is it true?
What level of losses the port should suffer to achieve it? I read 90%, is it the case?

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Post #: 86
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR) - 6/28/2014 3:04:34 PM   
Champagne


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Great AAR! Thanks very much for the lessons.



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Only the dead have seen the end of War.

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Post #: 87
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR) - 6/28/2014 5:57:44 PM   
Oshawott

 

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quote:

The results are better


Looks like German bombers are much better for bombing a port then Romanian bombers. Still I am puzzled why the 85 mm AA guns are not firing at all even so I have 60 in the city. Is this a bug?

Regarding your armament point situation I would like to know how many armament points does it cost to build a fortified zone?

< Message edited by Oshawott -- 6/28/2014 6:58:21 PM >

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Post #: 88
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR) - 6/29/2014 12:12:31 AM   
caliJP

 

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STEF,
I think you are pointing at the right symptom in your analysis of why you are where you are: you are facing a red army which is already huge by early 1942. From looking at the numbers at the end of T17, it seems clear the root cause dates from the summer 1941 campaign.
If I compare Oshawott's Red Army compared to my game against JC, at T17:

Loss OOB
Oshawott 1.85M 5.6M
JP 3.4M 4.1M

Even with my much lower numbers, I managed to stop my opponent's offensive in July 1942, and have been pushing back ever since. So I don't see how you stood a chance after T17, barring a major fubar from Oshawott.
I also had lost Leningrad and Stalino, Oshawott did not.

It's hard to see what happened in 1941 since the AAR is light in details for the first few turns. But looking at numbers at T5 and T10, it looks like Oshawott was free to run east and take few losses early on, and by T10 already had a mighty army, combining all the units that retreated and reinforcements. In my game against JC I committed to fight forward, so I took higher losses (I only lost Kiev at T12!). Yet I still ended up gaining the upper hand in 1942.

So I think if a good Soviet player is free to just run east, unless the German player is very skilled, knows all the good cheese :) and opens with a huge Lvov pocket, the game is hugely to the soviets' advantage.





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Post #: 89
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR) - 6/29/2014 12:16:00 AM   
Oshawott

 

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quote:

What level of losses the port should suffer to achieve it? I read 90%, is it the case?


If I understand the port system correctly any level 1 port is able to supply troops. So you would have to reduce the level 15 port of Odessa to below level 1. This means you have to cause 94% damage to the port.

(in reply to STEF78)
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