Squad Upgrade Issue
Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
Squad Upgrade Issue
Michael,
In the thread listed below an issue has arisen where squad upgrades seem to be working differently in different PBMs. It's best to read the thread as Moose posted his test results and methodology and I posted what I see each turn in carefully checking logs and units. The long and short of it is that I experience that the number of squads upgrading in a single day is limited by the number of new type squads in the pool. The old type squads are returned to the pool as new type squads, but cannot support another unit upgrading until the following day. Moose experiences the opposite, as basically the squads are used over and over again during the same day. For example, take 5 units each needing 91 squads to upgrade. There are 95 in the pool, and all 5 units upgrade on the same day.
In my game those 5 units would take 5 days to upgrade (at 1 upgrading per day). We are both pretty close to current in patch level as I think both of us are in the 'x' series. I can supply save games and logs if you need and I think that Moose can also do so.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3604034
In the thread listed below an issue has arisen where squad upgrades seem to be working differently in different PBMs. It's best to read the thread as Moose posted his test results and methodology and I posted what I see each turn in carefully checking logs and units. The long and short of it is that I experience that the number of squads upgrading in a single day is limited by the number of new type squads in the pool. The old type squads are returned to the pool as new type squads, but cannot support another unit upgrading until the following day. Moose experiences the opposite, as basically the squads are used over and over again during the same day. For example, take 5 units each needing 91 squads to upgrade. There are 95 in the pool, and all 5 units upgrade on the same day.
In my game those 5 units would take 5 days to upgrade (at 1 upgrading per day). We are both pretty close to current in patch level as I think both of us are in the 'x' series. I can supply save games and logs if you need and I think that Moose can also do so.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3604034
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- Bullwinkle58
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RE: Squad Upgrade Issue
ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
ARE one of you allies and the other IJ? Which is which ...
I did my test in San Francisco . . .
The Moose
RE: Squad Upgrade Issue
We are not playing each other. We discovered this state of affairs through the multilateral discussions inherent in the this beneficent theater of minds (the Matrix AE forum). [:)]
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- michaelm75au
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RE: Squad Upgrade Issue
The rule for the device replacement was that the squad devices being replaced (and thus being put back in to the queue) are delayed a day. This was to stop some issues where the replaced devices were immediately available to other units needing the older devices.
Michael
RE: Squad Upgrade Issue
If I could expand on that a little bit. SoORIGINAL: michaelm
The rule for the device replacement was that the squad devices being replaced (and thus being put back in to the queue) are delayed a day. This was to stop some issues where the replaced devices were immediately available to other units needing the older devices.
- When squad/engineer devices are upgraded, the old squad/engineer device is put back into the pool as the new type of that squad/engineer, and with a 1-day delay.
- When non-squad/engineer devices are upgraded, the old non-squad/engineer device is put back into the pool (but not converted to be the new type), and with a 1-day delay.
This is what I see in my PBM (including with the latest x6a).
But Moose is not seeing the 1-day delay. So if he wants to find out what's going on, Moose will have to supply saves, reports, etc.
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RE: Squad Upgrade Issue
OK, you see exactly what I see for IJ. Good. I have never tested the allies ...ORIGINAL: witpqs
If I could expand on that a little bit. SoORIGINAL: michaelm
The rule for the device replacement was that the squad devices being replaced (and thus being put back in to the queue) are delayed a day. This was to stop some issues where the replaced devices were immediately available to other units needing the older devices.
- When squad/engineer devices are upgraded, the old squad/engineer device is put back into the pool as the new type of that squad/engineer, and with a 1-day delay.
- When non-squad/engineer devices are upgraded, the old non-squad/engineer device is put back into the pool (but not converted to be the new type), and with a 1-day delay.
This is what I see in my PBM (including with the latest x6a).
But Moose is not seeing the 1-day delay. So if he wants to find out what's going on, Moose will have to supply saves, reports, etc.
Pax
- Bullwinkle58
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RE: Squad Upgrade Issue
ORIGINAL: michaelm
The rule for the device replacement was that the squad devices being replaced (and thus being put back in to the queue) are delayed a day. This was to stop some issues where the replaced devices were immediately available to other units needing the older devices.
Just to be clear, I tested ONLY squad devices. Specifically US Army 1941 Infantry. And US army 1942 Infantry. The latter begins production in July 1942. The former continues production for one month, in overlap.
The behavior I saw does not match what you say should happen. Not only was there no one-day delay, but the rotated-back squads from the first LCU upgraded immediately went back out. This pattern repeated many times. In my test I did base forces and infantry regiments. In the latter case, five full regiments upgraded in one turn from a beginning 1942 squad pool of 95 squads. Each of the five has 91 squads in it's July 1942 TOE.
Rotating replaced 1941 squads back to the pool has little utility as they are obsolete and only non-upgraded LCUs will ever be able to draw them. From what Alfred said in the thread in question they begin to auto-convert to 1942 squads after six months.
The Moose
- Bullwinkle58
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RE: Squad Upgrade Issue
This is the save game testbed I used. It is the x6a beta EXE.
Set-up: head-to-head, all animations off. All worldwide replacements are off for all devices. Only San Francisco has active replacements. Only USAAF base forces were used for the test, as their TOES are identical. Each begins with 12 1941 infantry squads.
In my run 9 of 11 base forces present at SF upgraded to full 1942 infantry squad levels in one turn. Beginning pool inventory was 18 squads.
To run:
1) In pool screen, turn Stockpile on 1942 Rifle Squad to "N". Turn Stockpile on 1941 Rifle Squad to "N". All other devices of every kind, squad and non-squad, should be left on Stockpile="Y"
2) At San Francisco, Sort LCUs to Engineer only. Set for ALL USAAF base forces, Upgrade to "Y". Set Replacements to "Y". Set mode on all USAAF base forces to Rest. Change nothing else. Run the turn on 1-day turn settings.
Save attached. Suffix changed from .pws to .jpg
![Image](https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/upfiles/31387/31193F3DA0184915AB9FD7431EFC5341.jpg)
Set-up: head-to-head, all animations off. All worldwide replacements are off for all devices. Only San Francisco has active replacements. Only USAAF base forces were used for the test, as their TOES are identical. Each begins with 12 1941 infantry squads.
In my run 9 of 11 base forces present at SF upgraded to full 1942 infantry squad levels in one turn. Beginning pool inventory was 18 squads.
To run:
1) In pool screen, turn Stockpile on 1942 Rifle Squad to "N". Turn Stockpile on 1941 Rifle Squad to "N". All other devices of every kind, squad and non-squad, should be left on Stockpile="Y"
2) At San Francisco, Sort LCUs to Engineer only. Set for ALL USAAF base forces, Upgrade to "Y". Set Replacements to "Y". Set mode on all USAAF base forces to Rest. Change nothing else. Run the turn on 1-day turn settings.
Save attached. Suffix changed from .pws to .jpg
![Image](https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/upfiles/31387/31193F3DA0184915AB9FD7431EFC5341.jpg)
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The Moose
- Bullwinkle58
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RE: Squad Upgrade Issue
I have never posted a save game before. If that's not the correct way, please let me know.
The Moose
- Bullwinkle58
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RE: Squad Upgrade Issue
This is the same testbed, run forward in time to test the regiments at SF. Same parameters. Starting 1941 squads in pool were 95. Each regiment wants 91 1942 squads. Five of ten regiments upgraded in one turn.
![Image](https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/upfiles/31387/BEF9A357BC264828BE2D53C7991E1010.jpg)
![Image](https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/upfiles/31387/BEF9A357BC264828BE2D53C7991E1010.jpg)
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The Moose
- Bullwinkle58
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RE: Squad Upgrade Issue
OK, that didn't work Let me try .zip. This is the 007 file for the base forces.
Note: I did not actually zip the file. Just changed the suffix.
Note: I did not actually zip the file. Just changed the suffix.
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- Bullwinkle58
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RE: Squad Upgrade Issue
This is the .009 file for the regiments.
Not actually zipped. Just changed the suffix.
Not actually zipped. Just changed the suffix.
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- michaelm75au
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RE: Squad Upgrade Issue
I turned on just 2 BF to simplify test.
Only one unit actually upgraded its devices as indicated in the Operations report:
Device(s) upgraded in 120th USAAF Base Force supplied from San Francisco
Tracing the code, this is the only BF that pulled devices (Inf 42) from the pool - the old devices were added back after the replacement phase.
However, the other BF (117) showed that the device # had been upgraded - this is different from taking replacements from the device pool.
I'll see if I can see why this happened.
Only one unit actually upgraded its devices as indicated in the Operations report:
Device(s) upgraded in 120th USAAF Base Force supplied from San Francisco
Tracing the code, this is the only BF that pulled devices (Inf 42) from the pool - the old devices were added back after the replacement phase.
However, the other BF (117) showed that the device # had been upgraded - this is different from taking replacements from the device pool.
I'll see if I can see why this happened.
Michael
- michaelm75au
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RE: Squad Upgrade Issue
Found it.
There are 2 phases.
1. During the device upgrade phase (which is what the thread is about), the devices being upgraded are limited as discussed. At the end of this phase, the old device numbers are added back as the new devices.
2. Then there is the device replacement phase later in the turn. The old devices from phase 1, which had been added back as new ones, are available to the other BFs.
This was evident once I turned off replacements for the unit
[There is an inferred device upgrade within the replacement phase which does defer the upgraded device numbers. But as this runs for each base, it is possible for the upgraded devices to available to another base (such as LA) to supply the replacements to these BFs in SF.
This still means you could update the devices from one BF in phase 1. In phase 2 at one base, there would be enough to upgrade the devices in another BF. The the next base check would have other new devices (from the 'upgrade' in the earlier base) so it could upgrade more BF. So you could end up still having all 13 device upgraded. The large bases around SF just magnify the problem. If these BF were at Hawaii with the limited supplied bases, it would not have been so obvious - only some BF would have upgrade (probable one from the real device upgrade, and then one or 2 BF from the bases.
The Japanese player would have the same upgrade 'benefit' if doing the same in Japan where there are lots of bases.]
There are 2 phases.
1. During the device upgrade phase (which is what the thread is about), the devices being upgraded are limited as discussed. At the end of this phase, the old device numbers are added back as the new devices.
2. Then there is the device replacement phase later in the turn. The old devices from phase 1, which had been added back as new ones, are available to the other BFs.
This was evident once I turned off replacements for the unit
[There is an inferred device upgrade within the replacement phase which does defer the upgraded device numbers. But as this runs for each base, it is possible for the upgraded devices to available to another base (such as LA) to supply the replacements to these BFs in SF.
This still means you could update the devices from one BF in phase 1. In phase 2 at one base, there would be enough to upgrade the devices in another BF. The the next base check would have other new devices (from the 'upgrade' in the earlier base) so it could upgrade more BF. So you could end up still having all 13 device upgraded. The large bases around SF just magnify the problem. If these BF were at Hawaii with the limited supplied bases, it would not have been so obvious - only some BF would have upgrade (probable one from the real device upgrade, and then one or 2 BF from the bases.
The Japanese player would have the same upgrade 'benefit' if doing the same in Japan where there are lots of bases.]
Michael
RE: Squad Upgrade Issue
That was fast!
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- michaelm75au
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RE: Squad Upgrade Issue
I'm in 2 minds whether to "fix" this:
(a) by keeping the old device upgraded numbers outside the base replacement loop like the actual device upgrade code, or
(b) leave it as where multiple well supplied bases give an extra bonus to the replacement process.
(a) by keeping the old device upgraded numbers outside the base replacement loop like the actual device upgrade code, or
(b) leave it as where multiple well supplied bases give an extra bonus to the replacement process.
Michael
RE: Squad Upgrade Issue
Edit to Add: When I wrote the post below, I thought that replacement phase only handled replacements and did not realize that the replacement phase also could/did perform device upgrades.
I think the replacement process is fine.
I think it's a minor issue if you expand the 1-day delay to keep the returned squads outside that replacement loop, or leave it as is. After all, with a 1-day delay they will be available the following day, without a 1-day delay they will be available the same day.
That's very different than the consequences for the upgrade part. In that case, with no 1-day delay you could have many units upgrade in a single day instead of one by one over a weeks or month-long period. But that's already covered, and you verified that it works as intended.
The thing is, Moose felt certain that multiple units were actually upgrading squads per turn when (with a 1-day delay) only one unit was supposed to be able to upgrade squads. If his observation was incorrect, then it's just the replacement thing you outlined.
I think the replacement process is fine.
I think it's a minor issue if you expand the 1-day delay to keep the returned squads outside that replacement loop, or leave it as is. After all, with a 1-day delay they will be available the following day, without a 1-day delay they will be available the same day.
That's very different than the consequences for the upgrade part. In that case, with no 1-day delay you could have many units upgrade in a single day instead of one by one over a weeks or month-long period. But that's already covered, and you verified that it works as intended.
The thing is, Moose felt certain that multiple units were actually upgrading squads per turn when (with a 1-day delay) only one unit was supposed to be able to upgrade squads. If his observation was incorrect, then it's just the replacement thing you outlined.
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- Bullwinkle58
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RE: Squad Upgrade Issue
Michael, first, thanks for looking at this. It's a hard topic as it has a lot of facets, and has been patched/altered several times in the game's history.
But I think it's more complex than your posts indicate. I re-ran the base force save (007). I got the same results I did before. 10 of 12 base forces actually took replacements in one turn from a starting pool of 18 squads. When you only run it with two base forces you don't see the full effect.
Also, the issue for other bases pulling replacements is controlled out of this test. No other bases in the world have an LCU with either Urpgrade or Replacement set ON. SF is its own world. It has massive supply levels, as supply accumulated from 12/8/41 to July 1942 with no use or shipments, and it has premium HQ support if that matters. But within one base 108 squads actually replaced from a pool of 18.
Third is the issue of why do they stop upgrading/replacing? If all twelve had done so it might not be correct,, but at least consistent. For the regiment test, why did it do five and not all ten? Is it a random issue? Or is it entering the data base at Record X on the first upgrade/replace, marching to End of File, and not going back to pick up the records north of the first? Or something else?
Also, curious, I ran a third test with the 009 file. I set all ten regiments to upgrade/replace, and all twelve base forces. Starting pools were 95 squads. In that test, oddly, 3 of 10 regiments upgraded/replaced at 91 squads each (not 5 of 10 as in the regiments-only test previously) when the unit detail screen was accessed (top line to the device stack), and ALL 12 of the USAAF base forces upgraded/replaced, not only 10 as in the 007 file test on just the base forces. This again is from looking at the LCU detail screen one base force at a time. The top line has changed to 1942 squads at 91 squads fill.
BUT . . . the Operations Report, while showing that lots of units upgraded/replaced--far exceeding the 95 squad beginning inventory--not all of them did as indicated by the LCU detail screens. This seems to be a serious interface mismatch and a gameplay problem.
This is the full text of the operations report showing which really did pull replacements on the 1-day turn:
OPERATIONAL REPORT FOR Aug 07, 42
No additional repairs possible on DD Express using currently assigned resources at Singapore
No additional repairs possible on DD Vampire using currently assigned resources at Singapore
A-29 Hudson from 42nd BG/390th BS at Boise grounded due to maintenance
B-17E Fortress from 301st BG/352nd BS at Mojave grounded due to maintenance
No additional repairs possible on DD Express using currently assigned resources at Singapore
No additional repairs possible on DD Vampire using currently assigned resources at Singapore
117th USAAF Base Force - some devices have been upgraded at San Francisco
120th USAAF Base Force - some devices have been upgraded at San Francisco
123rd USAAF Base Force - some devices have been upgraded at San Francisco
124th USAAF Base Force - some devices have been upgraded at San Francisco
125th USAAF Base Force - some devices have been upgraded at San Francisco
126th USAAF Base Force - some devices have been upgraded at San Francisco
127th USAAF Base Force - some devices have been upgraded at San Francisco
128th USAAF Base Force - some devices have been upgraded at San Francisco
Ship Withdrawals: 15 overdue (287 Daily PP, 18452 Accumulated PP)
Group Withdrawals:
135 overdue (1512 Daily PP, 162145 Accumulated PP)
Device(s) upgraded in 131st USAAF Base Force supplied from San Francisco
Device(s) upgraded in 132nd USAAF Base Force supplied from San Francisco
Device(s) upgraded in 113th USAAF Base Force supplied from San Francisco
Device(s) upgraded in 177th USAAF Base Force supplied from San Francisco
Device(s) upgraded in 138th(Sep) Infantry Regiment supplied from San Francisco
138th(Sep) Infantry Regiment's TOE was upgraded to USA AK42 Infantry Regiment at San Francisco
24th (Sep) Infantry Regiment's TOE was upgraded to USA 42 Infantry Regiment at San Francisco
53rd (Sep) Infantry Regiment's TOE was upgraded to USA 42 Infantry Regiment at San Francisco
125th Infantry Regiment's TOE was upgraded to USA 42 Infantry Regiment at San Francisco
140th Infantry Regiment's TOE was upgraded to USA 42 Infantry Regiment at San Francisco
AM Tamworth arrives at Brisbane
---------------------------------------
Finally, if the above can be unraveled, I think it's important to be careful in "fixing" this issue without considering the original land dev team's intent. The monthly production number for this device is hard-coded in stock at 80 per month. For a division that's 3-month's production, and there are several pre-war divisions. There are many (over 10) independent regiments at 91 squads each, or about five weeks per. There are several dozen base forces at 12 squads each, over a week's worth of production.
I'm not clear exactly what Andy Mac and the other land guys intended, but from the 2009 forum posts Alfred referenced it looks like the intent was for replaced 1941 squads to "magically" become 1942 squads on their way back to the pools. So, if you "save up" 12 squads to upgrade/replace one base force, afterwards you would still have 12 in the pool to upgrade another tomorrow, if possible. Same with a regiment. Once you save up for five weeks to get 91 squads you could sequentially upgrade/replace the regiments day after day, with a one-day delay, rather than have to save over a month for each. And then begin to save for just one division at three months. You're well into the middle of 1943 still trying to upgrade pre-war units with new hand weapons if the 80 per month production can only be used once.
Please take a look at the operations report above. It's easy to run from the 009 file. It takes less than five minutes. I think there's more going on in there than a test of only two base forces reveals.
But I think it's more complex than your posts indicate. I re-ran the base force save (007). I got the same results I did before. 10 of 12 base forces actually took replacements in one turn from a starting pool of 18 squads. When you only run it with two base forces you don't see the full effect.
Also, the issue for other bases pulling replacements is controlled out of this test. No other bases in the world have an LCU with either Urpgrade or Replacement set ON. SF is its own world. It has massive supply levels, as supply accumulated from 12/8/41 to July 1942 with no use or shipments, and it has premium HQ support if that matters. But within one base 108 squads actually replaced from a pool of 18.
Third is the issue of why do they stop upgrading/replacing? If all twelve had done so it might not be correct,, but at least consistent. For the regiment test, why did it do five and not all ten? Is it a random issue? Or is it entering the data base at Record X on the first upgrade/replace, marching to End of File, and not going back to pick up the records north of the first? Or something else?
Also, curious, I ran a third test with the 009 file. I set all ten regiments to upgrade/replace, and all twelve base forces. Starting pools were 95 squads. In that test, oddly, 3 of 10 regiments upgraded/replaced at 91 squads each (not 5 of 10 as in the regiments-only test previously) when the unit detail screen was accessed (top line to the device stack), and ALL 12 of the USAAF base forces upgraded/replaced, not only 10 as in the 007 file test on just the base forces. This again is from looking at the LCU detail screen one base force at a time. The top line has changed to 1942 squads at 91 squads fill.
BUT . . . the Operations Report, while showing that lots of units upgraded/replaced--far exceeding the 95 squad beginning inventory--not all of them did as indicated by the LCU detail screens. This seems to be a serious interface mismatch and a gameplay problem.
This is the full text of the operations report showing which really did pull replacements on the 1-day turn:
OPERATIONAL REPORT FOR Aug 07, 42
No additional repairs possible on DD Express using currently assigned resources at Singapore
No additional repairs possible on DD Vampire using currently assigned resources at Singapore
A-29 Hudson from 42nd BG/390th BS at Boise grounded due to maintenance
B-17E Fortress from 301st BG/352nd BS at Mojave grounded due to maintenance
No additional repairs possible on DD Express using currently assigned resources at Singapore
No additional repairs possible on DD Vampire using currently assigned resources at Singapore
117th USAAF Base Force - some devices have been upgraded at San Francisco
120th USAAF Base Force - some devices have been upgraded at San Francisco
123rd USAAF Base Force - some devices have been upgraded at San Francisco
124th USAAF Base Force - some devices have been upgraded at San Francisco
125th USAAF Base Force - some devices have been upgraded at San Francisco
126th USAAF Base Force - some devices have been upgraded at San Francisco
127th USAAF Base Force - some devices have been upgraded at San Francisco
128th USAAF Base Force - some devices have been upgraded at San Francisco
Ship Withdrawals: 15 overdue (287 Daily PP, 18452 Accumulated PP)
Group Withdrawals:
135 overdue (1512 Daily PP, 162145 Accumulated PP)
Device(s) upgraded in 131st USAAF Base Force supplied from San Francisco
Device(s) upgraded in 132nd USAAF Base Force supplied from San Francisco
Device(s) upgraded in 113th USAAF Base Force supplied from San Francisco
Device(s) upgraded in 177th USAAF Base Force supplied from San Francisco
Device(s) upgraded in 138th(Sep) Infantry Regiment supplied from San Francisco
138th(Sep) Infantry Regiment's TOE was upgraded to USA AK42 Infantry Regiment at San Francisco
24th (Sep) Infantry Regiment's TOE was upgraded to USA 42 Infantry Regiment at San Francisco
53rd (Sep) Infantry Regiment's TOE was upgraded to USA 42 Infantry Regiment at San Francisco
125th Infantry Regiment's TOE was upgraded to USA 42 Infantry Regiment at San Francisco
140th Infantry Regiment's TOE was upgraded to USA 42 Infantry Regiment at San Francisco
AM Tamworth arrives at Brisbane
---------------------------------------
Finally, if the above can be unraveled, I think it's important to be careful in "fixing" this issue without considering the original land dev team's intent. The monthly production number for this device is hard-coded in stock at 80 per month. For a division that's 3-month's production, and there are several pre-war divisions. There are many (over 10) independent regiments at 91 squads each, or about five weeks per. There are several dozen base forces at 12 squads each, over a week's worth of production.
I'm not clear exactly what Andy Mac and the other land guys intended, but from the 2009 forum posts Alfred referenced it looks like the intent was for replaced 1941 squads to "magically" become 1942 squads on their way back to the pools. So, if you "save up" 12 squads to upgrade/replace one base force, afterwards you would still have 12 in the pool to upgrade another tomorrow, if possible. Same with a regiment. Once you save up for five weeks to get 91 squads you could sequentially upgrade/replace the regiments day after day, with a one-day delay, rather than have to save over a month for each. And then begin to save for just one division at three months. You're well into the middle of 1943 still trying to upgrade pre-war units with new hand weapons if the 80 per month production can only be used once.
Please take a look at the operations report above. It's easy to run from the 009 file. It takes less than five minutes. I think there's more going on in there than a test of only two base forces reveals.
The Moose
- Bullwinkle58
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RE: Squad Upgrade Issue
Screen shot showing LCU detail the next day on one regiment and one USAAF base force upgraded/replaced the previous turn. Combined they exceed the 95 squad beginning pool, but as I said, all USAAF base forces set to upgrade/replace look like this, but only three of ten regiments do. These screens are what a player uses to plan combat usage and tell him here that these units have 1942 squads.
![Image](https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/upfiles/31387/F36F5643BF6E48B693CCF1366C922C0F.jpg)
![Image](https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/upfiles/31387/F36F5643BF6E48B693CCF1366C922C0F.jpg)
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