Ship strafing overkill

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Yaab
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Ship strafing overkill

Post by Yaab »

The big Zero groups from Takao were set on Naval Attack at 100 feet. Drop tanks were added too boost their range so they could reach Hong Kong. This is what happened.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Dec 07, 41

------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Hong Kong at 77,61

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 32 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 63

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
DD Scout, Shell hits 22, Bomb hits 1
MTB 12, Shell hits 8
DD Thanet, Shell hits 11
MTB 11, Shell hits 3
MTB 26, Shell hits 19
MTB 10, Shell hits 10
MTB 8, Shell hits 13

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
27 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
9 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb

------------------------------------------------------------------

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Hong Kong at 77,61

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 36 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 62

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
DD Thanet, Shell hits 3
MTB 26
DD Scout, Shell hits 12, Bomb hits 7, and is sunk
MTB 9, Shell hits 3
MTB 7, Shell hits 1
MTB 11, Shell hits 2
MTB 8, Shell hits 5

Aircraft Attacking:
26 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
27 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
9 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb

Magazine explodes on DD Scout

Afterwards: Both DDs sunk, all PTs have system damage ranging from 6 to 48. It was a surprise to see the Japanese pilots perform both the morning and the afternoon attack - that was a long way to Hong Kong. Most hits were with 20mm rounds, there were few 7.7mm round hits. The weather was Clear. Some interesting combat messages after 20mm rounds hit DDs, with one saying 2pdr mount hit, another one saying 2pdr mount destroyed. No bomb hits were scored on the PTs. Little skill gains for Zero pilots - a point of strafing here,a point in naval bombing there, but no experience gains.
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witpqs
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RE: Ship strafing overkill

Post by witpqs »

Why do you think this was overkill? Have you seen any of the prior discussions on these forums (AE and original WITP) regarding historical examples of machine guns and cannons being used against ships? The Royal Marines at South Georgia Island put more than a thousand holes in an Argentine Navy frigate, and they used one 7.62 mm machine gun and about a dozen 7.62 mm battle rifles. (They also hit it with one anti-tank weapon, but that's not relevant here.)
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Bullwinkle58
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RE: Ship strafing overkill

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

Fletcher-class DD= armored

Pretty much every other DD= not-armored

Have people ever seen a 20mm projectile? One will ruin your whole day.
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castor troy
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RE: Ship strafing overkill

Post by castor troy »

no idea how Thanet would sink but not surprising at all that Scout was sunk after taking 8x60kg bomb hits. Besides the bomb hits, have never seen a ship survive a magazine explosion in several thousands of turns.
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Yaab
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RE: Ship strafing overkill

Post by Yaab »

Speaking of magazine explosion, do small craft like PT actually have any interior compartments represented in the game? They were shot multiple time with 20mm cannons and nothing, they just accumulate system damage. With them it is either obliteration by an air bomb or ship shell, or a numbing shooting contest.

Can ammo explode on a PT? A 20mm could at least hit a torpedo on a PT or something.
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Bullwinkle58
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RE: Ship strafing overkill

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Speaking of magazine explosion, do small craft like PT actually have any interior compartments represented in the game? They were shot multiple time with 20mm cannons and nothing, they just accumulate system damage. With them it is either obliteration by an air bomb or ship shell, or a numbing shooting contest.

Can ammo explode on a PT? A 20mm could at least hit a torpedo on a PT or something.

AFAIK no ship has internal compartments represented in the game. Armor, durability, crew training, etc. affect the damage "buckets." There's no watertight integrity overtly modeled.

PTs were wooden, at least USN models, so . . .

PTs don't have magazines. Shells hitting ordnance is not modeled AFAIK.
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AW1Steve
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RE: Ship strafing overkill

Post by AW1Steve »

ORIGINAL: Yaab

The big Zero groups from Takao were set on Naval Attack at 100 feet. Drop tanks were added too boost their range so they could reach Hong Kong. This is what happened.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Dec 07, 41

------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Hong Kong at 77,61

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 32 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 63

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
DD Scout, Shell hits 22, Bomb hits 1
MTB 12, Shell hits 8
DD Thanet, Shell hits 11
MTB 11, Shell hits 3
MTB 26, Shell hits 19
MTB 10, Shell hits 10
MTB 8, Shell hits 13

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
27 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
9 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb

------------------------------------------------------------------

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Hong Kong at 77,61

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 36 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 62

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
DD Thanet, Shell hits 3
MTB 26
DD Scout, Shell hits 12, Bomb hits 7, and is sunk
MTB 9, Shell hits 3
MTB 7, Shell hits 1
MTB 11, Shell hits 2
MTB 8, Shell hits 5

Aircraft Attacking:
26 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
27 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
9 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb

Magazine explodes on DD Scout

Afterwards: Both DDs sunk, all PTs have system damage ranging from 6 to 48. It was a surprise to see the Japanese pilots perform both the morning and the afternoon attack - that was a long way to Hong Kong. Most hits were with 20mm rounds, there were few 7.7mm round hits. The weather was Clear. Some interesting combat messages after 20mm rounds hit DDs, with one saying 2pdr mount hit, another one saying 2pdr mount destroyed. No bomb hits were scored on the PTs. Little skill gains for Zero pilots - a point of strafing here,a point in naval bombing there, but no experience gains.


The USN sank several INJ ships by strafing with 50 cal. Considerably smaller than a 20mm. The Beaufighter , using 2x20mm (and 8x.303) was said to be able to "saw a destroyer in half" on a single pass. PT boats , in construction technique at least , was said to resemble nothing so much as "a pre-war stockbrokers cabin cruiser". Almost entirely plywood. Where is wasn't plywood were generally comprised of , oh, steel drums filled with hi-octane aviation gasoline or other things that go boom or splat. And destroyers , even the Fletchers (which were only armored in places like the bridge and magazines) were called "tin cans" for a reason. A 50 cal round would easily penetrate most places. One hitting a torpedo would be catastrophic. I do not find this to be over kill in the slightest. On the other hand I have seen was a 20mm can do to thin metal (air craft and soft skinned vehicles). Even if it does not explode, it defiantly is not pretty. One might even argue that a 7.7 or 20mm round would do far more damage to a PT or DD than a cruiser or battleship round , which would most likely pass clear through without exploding.
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RE: Ship strafing overkill

Post by AW1Steve »

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Speaking of magazine explosion, do small craft like PT actually have any interior compartments represented in the game? They were shot multiple time with 20mm cannons and nothing, they just accumulate system damage. With them it is either obliteration by an air bomb or ship shell, or a numbing shooting contest.

Can ammo explode on a PT? A 20mm could at least hit a torpedo on a PT or something.
Water tight? No. PT's have "bulkheads" made of plywood. About as durable as a wall in your wooden house.
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AW1Steve
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RE: Ship strafing overkill

Post by AW1Steve »

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Speaking of magazine explosion, do small craft like PT actually have any interior compartments represented in the game? They were shot multiple time with 20mm cannons and nothing, they just accumulate system damage. With them it is either obliteration by an air bomb or ship shell, or a numbing shooting contest.

Can ammo explode on a PT? A 20mm could at least hit a torpedo on a PT or something.

Don't forget , a 20mm is an antiaircraft weapon. A sheet of aluminum would have far less resistance than a wall of plywood. And it's designed to explode against an aircraft fuselage. The trick is all in the fusing.
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Bullwinkle58
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RE: Ship strafing overkill

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Speaking of magazine explosion, do small craft like PT actually have any interior compartments represented in the game? They were shot multiple time with 20mm cannons and nothing, they just accumulate system damage. With them it is either obliteration by an air bomb or ship shell, or a numbing shooting contest.

Can ammo explode on a PT? A 20mm could at least hit a torpedo on a PT or something.
Water tight? No. PT's have "bulkheads" made of plywood. About as durable as a wall in your wooden house.

Yeahbut, it was MAHOGANY plywood! [:)]

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RE: Ship strafing overkill

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Speaking of magazine explosion, do small craft like PT actually have any interior compartments represented in the game? They were shot multiple time with 20mm cannons and nothing, they just accumulate system damage. With them it is either obliteration by an air bomb or ship shell, or a numbing shooting contest.

Can ammo explode on a PT? A 20mm could at least hit a torpedo on a PT or something.

AFAIK no ship has internal compartments represented in the game. Armor, durability, crew training, etc. affect the damage "buckets." There's no watertight integrity overtly modeled.

PTs were wooden, at least USN models, so . . .

PTs don't have magazines. Shells hitting ordnance is not modeled AFAIK.

Aside from blowing up torpedo tubes or depth charge racks.

Sadly, it doesn't cause secondary explosion damage. Sometimes I wish it did. Sometimes I'm very thankful it doesn't.
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RE: Ship strafing overkill

Post by crsutton »

This is the first day of the war. Most of those ship have only light MGs for defense. Vs any decently armed ship later on the zeros would be shot to bits.
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Yaab
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RE: Ship strafing overkill

Post by Yaab »

You are right, hence the overkill.

The interesting thing I have noticed in this test is that Zero is the only Japanese fighter in the whole war which carries bombs in XT position and a drop tank in CL position. Thus you can fly with 2 x 7.7mm MGs, 2 x 20mm cannons and 2 x 60kg GP bombs up to eleven hexes on those Naval Attack missions. The downside is you cannot specify which TF gets attacked on Naval Attacks mission, and you may end up attacking a flak-heavy TF. I wish there was Low Naval Attack mission for barges, PTs, small craft, DDs and merchies in order to avoid that.
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Yaab
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RE: Ship strafing overkill

Post by Yaab »

I am wondering, what is a 20mm round against PT actually.

I have this photo of an LST scarred by big caliber AP rounds.

Image[/img]

Now, 20mm Oerlikon is in the foreground, and since the LST is somewhat bigger than a PT, how many rounds would you need to sink a ship like this with 20mm rounds only? It would seem that the only damage would be sailors killed and maimed by exploding 20mm rounds.

By the way, since Zero's 20mm cannon is an antiaircraft gun primarily, is the 20mm round HE or AP, or some kind of game universal ammo?
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Erkki
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RE: Ship strafing overkill

Post by Erkki »

ORIGINAL: Yaab

I am wondering, what is a 20mm round against PT actually.

I have this photo of an LST scarred by big caliber AP rounds.

Image[/img]

Now, 20mm Oerlikon is in the foreground, and since the LST is somewhat bigger than a PT, how many rounds would you need to sink a ship like this with 20mm rounds only? It would seem that the only damage would be sailors killed and maimed by exploding 20mm rounds.

By the way, since Zero's 20mm cannon is an antiaircraft gun primarily, is the 20mm round HE or AP, or some kind of game universal ammo?

Water would start pouring in from the holes created by low enough hits sooner or later. If something didnt catch fire first.

Game has same stats for all 20mm cannons(just acc varies). IRL various kinds of beltings with different kinds of ammunition mixed were used. Luftwaffe used a lot of HE shells and often air units went as far as using nothing but Minengeschoss. Other nations had less powerful 20mm HE shell and used more AP shells, for example the Hispano cannons used in Hurricanes, Spitfires, P-38 etc. had AP, APT and HEI ammo types mixed with IIRC usually every 4th being APT.

Of course AP shells too did more than just holes the diameter of the caliber on the target.

One can find lots of in-depth info and analysis on WW2 aircraft weapons here: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

edit: the link isnt very relevant, just extra info for anyone interested [:)]
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Yaab
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RE: Ship strafing overkill

Post by Yaab »

Redid the test.

It took 27 hits by 7.7mm and 20mm cannon to reach 50 sys damage on a single PT. At 50 sys damage, the AI put the PT in port for repairs. It is interesting you cannot score any hits on machine guns mounts on the PTs. I bet with 20 hits by 20mm rounds you should see some wrecked Lewis mounts, but no luck there.

A 20mm cannon round destroyed a twin torpedo mount on a DD - but there was no explosion of ordinance.

A single 60kg bomb hit on a PT obliterates the PT, but it is very hard to score such a hit ( I scored one). My LowNav skill was just 40, I wonder what 70 LowNav skill pilots can do with those bombs.
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crsutton
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RE: Ship strafing overkill

Post by crsutton »

Well, the speed of the target is a factor as well.
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RE: Ship strafing overkill

Post by Dili »

The most dangerous thing in a PT is the fuel.

Anyway i don't see an overkill if the Zero crew is well trained in straffing and LL attacks.

Fletcher-class DD= armored

Pretty much every other DD= not-armored

Fletcher DD pretty much not armored. Their armor in engines seldom would mean anything.
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Bullwinkle58
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RE: Ship strafing overkill

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

In the game. In the game.
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RE: Ship strafing overkill

Post by Dili »

Touche! [:)]
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