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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Gary Grigsby's World at War: A World Divided >> Global Glory: China Page: [1]
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Global Glory: China - 4/25/2014 2:29:39 PM   

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Global Glory players:

Is there anything to be done with China? Or do you just sit and take it and wait for Japan to change it's focus?

Post #: 1
RE: Global Glory: China - 4/26/2014 1:08:10 AM   
Nami Koshino


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From: Portland, Oregon
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ORIGINAL: sushidog

Global Glory players:

Is there anything to be done with China? Or do you just sit and take it and wait for Japan to change it's focus?

China is pretty limited in what it can do. Early on, you can build the odd flak or fighter units to protect your factories and infrastructure, but your main job is simply to act as a threat in being to those areas under Japanese occupation. Sometimes late in the game you can make a grab for Manchuria. A lot depends on whether Japan has to start pulling reserves out of China if the fighting is going poorly for them elsewhere. The game doesn't allow the different world powers to occupy the same area. Otherwise, China would be a dandy place to base an Allied bomber unit to pick on Japanese industry.

(in reply to sushidog)
Post #: 2
RE: Global Glory: China - 4/26/2014 4:45:34 PM   

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Thanks, that's about what I thought, but I wanted to make sure there wasn't some important "Chain can't do much, but she HAS to do THIS" type thing I was missing.

(in reply to Nami Koshino)
Post #: 3
RE: Global Glory: China - 4/27/2014 2:31:23 PM   
SGT Rice


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There's a flip side to Nami's point about China acting as a threat ...
China must carefully assess how much of a threat Japan is pointing at China.

One viable Japanese strategy is to try and crush China before the main event with the UN
(and perhaps USSR) begins.

At the operational level, both the Chinese threat to Japan and the Japanese threat to China
play out in three regions on the map - Changsha, Shanghai, and Foochow. The standard Japanese opening move
in Spring-39 is to seize Foochow. In order to threaten Japan's coastal garrisons and tie down as many
Japanese troops as possible, China typically masses most of its infantry and militia units in Changsha.
Japan is forced to heavily garrison both Shanghai and Foochow in response, tying down many Japanese ground units.

However this can backfire on China if Japan prepares for a decisive ground campaign against China. Japan can
easily concentrate 15-20 teched up infantry, 5-10 artillery, plus armor and TAC air in Shanghai and Foochow.
Such a force can effectively neuter China for the rest of the war in three turns, taking Changsha, Chungking,
and Lanchow in rapid succession.

There's not much China can do to stop an all out Japanese attack, but you can make it more difficult. First
step is to monitor any Japanese buildup in Shanghai/Foochow. If Japan is preparing a knockout blow then the
Chinese want to retreat their main army from Changsha back to Chungking/Lanchow before the attack comes,
rather than have it decimated by the first attack. This forces the Japanese to send a far bigger force deep
into China, spending far more supplies both during the attack and when redeploying for operations in SE Asia
or elsewhere.

There is often a window in late-40/early-41 when this gets very interesting; Japan is trying to stack the odds in
her favor for the Changsha attack, China is wondering if its going to happen and if she should burn the supplies to
avoid the blow. It's worth it for the Japanese to bluff; if they can fake the Chinese into a hasty withdrawal to the
interior, then China has to spend supplies again to move those troops back into Changsha ... this can translate into
8-10 lost build points and 2-4 full turns in which China isn't threatening Shanghai/Foochow.

The reason the Japanese bluff can remove the Chinese threat for as long as 4 turns is supplies. If China has
20 units in Changsha, then it costs 20 supply to pull back to the interior, 20 supply to reoccupy Changsha,
and 20 supply available to threaten the coast again. Four turns of breathing room in China starting in mid-41
could be VERY useful for the management of the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere. So Chinese plans should
include provisions for a 40+ supply point burn with a 20+ reserve in early-41. Puts the Burma Road in a new light,
doesn't it?

Also important to note that if China ignores the threat from a Japanese buildup, allowing Japan to wipe out most of
China's mobile troops in a single battle in Changsha, then Japan might be content with that single attack and never
have to incur the expense of attacking and garrisoning Chungking/Lanchow.

If Japan does succeed in occupying China's core economic regions, then China should still try to make this a
Pyrrhic victory. If even a handful of Chinese infantry/militia survive the onslaught in the Yumen/Sinkiang
redoubt, then they will continue to comprise a threat, forcing Japan to either burn more units/supplies to
push west and eradicate China entirely, or maintain defense garrisons in both Chungking and Lanchow. This requires that
China has a stockpile of supplies in Sinkiang (lend lease from Russia might be needed here) and a concentration of
flak to protect the factory.

There are many variations on the above, such as: (1) Japan may go all the way to Sinkiang, threatening a two-pronged attack
into Russia into Vladivostok and Kazakhstan, (2) Japan may turn their victorious army/air force south from Chungking
to Kunming for an overland attack into India, or (3) Japan may find a window of time later in the war for neutering
the Chinese threat, if the Allies are focused on taking down Germany and aren't applying much pressure to Japan.

The Chinese player must be patient, observe all, anticipate and prepare for many contingencies, and preserve as much
territory and Chinese power as possible. China will almost never strike a decisive blow in WAW, but has many chances
to suffer a decisive defeat that dooms the Allied cause.

"Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first then seek to win."

- Sun Tzu


GG A World Divided Playtester

(in reply to sushidog)
Post #: 4
RE: Global Glory: China - 4/28/2014 2:40:36 PM   

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Thanks SGT Rice, that's a lot to digest.

(in reply to SGT Rice)
Post #: 5
RE: Global Glory: China - 11/6/2014 8:36:54 AM   
The Almighty Turtle


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Rice and Nami have added in far more than I feel like I could. But as a Western Allied player who has a bit of a masochistic streak for playing the Big Yellow Punching Bag, I do feel that I might be able to add in a few things. Ultimately, China is an unglamorous side theater, but you can still do a surprising amount of damage.

First: I think the key thing to remember is to play conservatively and defensively, but relatively aggressively. Your primary strategy should be to build up and maintain such formidable "troops in being" that you can deter the Japanese from attacking beyond Foochow. And ideally to be able to defeat them if they try, but this is a gamble. So memorize exactly what Japan's garrison and supply requirements are, so you can tell what you're likely to be hit with, where the Japanese will be weak, and so on.

Do not try to launch grand offensives with the intent of wiping the enemy from the map that often, but try to sucker the Japanese into attacking you when they're not really ready for it when you can, and make A Lot of small, harassing campaigns . Militia are your best friends for this. They are generally free(ish), they don't dramatically take away from the crucial defense of your home front (which you *really Need* professional troops for), and best of all you don't massively lose if they die but you do gain if you win.
If by some chance the Militia survive and achieve a hit, the next turn they will become regular Infantry, which is a massive upgrade. That way you can (and should) be able to save the resources you'd otherwise need to dedicate to making dedicated Infantry to making militia as well as flak and artillery (more on those later), and have the militia go through a sort of trial by fire to get you your regular Infantry. The human cost must be ghastly, but Chiang and Mao do not care, and ultimately China can afford it.

And if a raid by two militia against-say- one infantry results in one dead militia, one wounded infantry, and one promoted Militia it is a net profit. Most of the time. That will need to be scaled up considering the size of the Chinese land war, but you get the idea.

Likewise, you spawn free militia if the Japanese attack you. So if you can goad them into doing it with a less than overwhelming force and you somehow lose less than you gain, you can actually build up your forces through Japanese attacks.

Secondly: have a fallback plan in case of the worst possible scenario. That means building up Singkiang as much as humanly possible as a production facility and supply base. If you by some chance get the ability to transfer factories or resources there, consider Doing It. If you judge the Japanese wrong and you wind up losing heartland China, this place will be your only conceivable way to come back in the game. So keep what resources and (quality) troops you can afford there. Also I'd suggest thinking about invading Tibet, because it can (somewhat) shorten the province gap between Singkiang and the front, and you miight be able to open up Western Allied supply over "The Hump" of the Himalayas.

But again, your main emphasis is on holding the provinces furhter to the East by building up a formidable enough "fleet in being" in the mountains and valleys of Changsha, Chungking, etc so that you don't have to consider it.

Onto Flak. Don't even bother building airpower. Or if you have to don't wait until well, well, Well Well after. You're never going to be able to compete with the Japanese air forces on their turf. So don't, and strike a low blow. Flak is comparatively cheap to produce, easy to mass, and very formidable for Japanese pilots. So build those instead of planes and keep your existing air units on reserve (preferably one step behind the main line).

Stick enough of these together and you can and should insulate yourself from Japanese air attack bleeding out your factories and other resources, or at least make them pay badly if they ever show up over your skies. And considering how crucially Japan depends on its' veteran/elite corps of airmen, that is not a minor step. Reaching this level is a crucial step in the development of China and its' power, because from there you get a freer hand and more resources to pursue the war with Japan more aggressively (at least relatively).

However, at no point should you overemphasize these to the detriment of your land forces. China can't fly away from the Japanese. You can only lose the war on the ground. So at no point should you leave yourself (overly) vulnerable to that.

But once you *Do* have Flak, start cranking up production on land, and consider shifting the production focus to be more professional: Infantry rather than Militia, and including Artillery. These will be your war winning (such as it is) tip of the spear if you have one at all.

Why Infantry? Because they can compete with the Japanese on a closer-to-equal basis. Why artillery? Because they add firepower to your infantry units (Including- IIRC_ militia. Keep up some production of Flak for offensive purposes, and for what might happen later.

If you see the Japanese start to draw troops off somewhere, Hit Them. Decide whether or not you want to actually make a serious attempt to go after it (probably not) or this is just a punitive raid to wear down their garrisons and undermine the occupation (more likely), but know that the more troops fighting the Western Allies in the Pacific, the fewer they have to shoot at you with in battle, and so the fewer troops they *can* kill. Conversely, the more troop they have in China, the more free reign your allies will have in the Pacific and beyond.

If by some reason you actually take a region (possibly by accident), consider carefully whether or not you actually want to hold onto it. You likely won't, especially if it is on the East Coast where the Japanese can bring all of their firepower to bear. But if you can by chance retake Foochow and the Japanese have been sufficiently worn down in Southeast Asia while you have been sufficiently built up, you might want to consider it. Likewise, consider whether or not to repair resources.

If the Japanese will come back next turn, Don't Do it. Just more supply out of your pocket. On the other hand if you feel like you can hold your ground long enough to repair and move it, consider doing that. And if you are there to stay, the same applies. Though you still might want to consider rebasing your resources further West. And of course, remember to transfer some flak to keep the bad old days of the Japanese terror bombing your resources from coming back.

By the time you can consider serious campaigning against the Eastern Seaboard or Southeast Asia (where you will have to decide whether to annex it or give it back to France and the WA), the war is probably late and the Japanese should be starting to feel the heat with the naval, land, and resource losses to the Western Allies (above all), you, partisans, and the Soviets if they have entered the Pacific War. This should be showing in weaker Japanese garrisons in China (and weaker types of them; Infantry where there might be air and land combiend arms, Militia where there might have been Infantry), increased inability or unwillingness of the Japanese to move their troops on Mainland Asia around, decreased shipping of them in *or out*.

If it's 1943/44 and you see the same OOB in the Japanese provinces you border turn after turn after turn (whether or not it is necessarily good or bad for you IE: if the Japanese garrison remains weak from lack of transfers, or strong Japanese garrisons aren't transferred out), it's probably a good indication that this is going well.

This is where I think the Chinese player at long last *might*- just *Might* start to have their time of glory.

Begin stockpiling and preparing for major campaigns against the Eastern seaboard and/or (more likely or) Southeast Asia. Step militia production back up again and consider diverting troops to make Japanese attempts on Changsha or or the tiny territories due North of it more likely. Decide immediately what you are going to do with Southeast Asia if the problem isn't solved for you by then.

I would almost always suggest giving up French Indochina to the Western Allies unless you are in that fantastic of a position, are that expert at playing China, or are that fanatical about Roleplaying Chang and the Vietnamese KMT's ambitions (if you are drawing a blank on that, it's safe to say the "fanatical roleplayer" bit does not apply for you in this case). The dip to WA War Readiness is almost always more important than the ability to have a(nother coastal) province (exposed to the tender mercies of the IJN), and the ability to consider marching into Siam or beyond. It will revert the situation back to it being *their* problem rather than yours, and focus your power for the truly important effort in the Northeast. And at long last, consider building up some bona-fide airpower in your base in Singkiang and Changsha. By this point the supreme, uncontestable Japanese airpower of the bad old days should have gone down in flames to the Western Allied war or be otherwise occupied, so having a couple might be a good investment to deal with land based planes or to try and snipe the occasional unprotected transport.

Decide where you want to make the first strike, but I'd suggest making it in the South. Against either Foochow or Canton.

I'd almost suggest goiing at Foochow first, in order to force the Japanese army into a tiny pocket at Canton that you can then fall upon with your masses of troops. You should be able to defeat them, and even if Japanese ships lie offshore any units retreating will be damaged or destroyed, and even those ships probably will not save all the units from the slaughter.

At that, the Japanese will likely try to counterattack Foochow. Decide whether or not you want to fight them for it until you can consolidate your position in the South , or whether you want to try and make an attack further North to sever the overland connection to Manchuria and Korea and possibly pocket the Japanese troops in Shanghai or a newly-reconquered Foochow. If you are more conservative (and you probably should be if you've made it this far) you would probably mass for an attack on Foochow with your troops and then slowly push up the coast into Manchuria. if you're more daring you might try and replicate the Canton encirclement. Whichever way you pick is up to you, but take care.

From here, it's a straight up push through Manchuria and into Korea to expel the Japanese from the continent.

At this point in time, it should be all but over. Japan's navy sand air force should be on their knees, and with the loss of their army of occupation on mainland Asia they should no longer have the resources to threaten China or any of mainland East Asia ever again.

Pat yourself on the back, because this is faaaar more than most Chinese players (or games) ever get to. You have mastered what is probably The Hardest challenge this game has to offer besides *maybe* Japan. And now it comes time for rebuilding.

Pull your victorious troops out of Korea and back into Manchuria. This way you can avoid being encircled in Korea by an amphibious landing in your rear, but still have a ready force to push any Japanese landing force into the sea. Begin repairing, with the emphasis being on inland resources. Consider leaving coastal ones unrepaired until you can build up a flak presence or try and shift them into the interior because the Japanese can still attempt raiding.

If you truly, Truly want to do more after this herculean accomplishment, dedicate your efforts to building up an air force, paratroopers, and maybe- MAYBE- a small, easily-defensible-in-port navy. Go hunting for soft naval targets the Western Allies have missed and sink them. Attack any isolated Japanese air units with overwhelming might. If Taiwan or Hainan is still in Japanese hands, consider an all-aerial blitz of fighters, bombers, and paras to seize it.

If the War drags on further, perhaps even consider how you can help end it by attacking other island garrisons. Or perhaps even the Home Islands themselves?

You have nothing left to prove at this point, but if the Western Allied AI proves retarded and the game does drag on that long, it might be worth considering. But in any event, savor the victory, Generalissimo. For you have done the impossible!

Note: it is also somewhat possible to occupy French Indochina (and by extension Siam) very Early, if by chance the Japanese do not deploy sufficient troops to tie you up or defend French Indochina. However, this is a risky business and generally not worth keeping since the full terror of the Japanese air and naval forces can be brought to bear on you and occupying it with the Vietnamese KMT will dip WA War Readiness, and that's even more important in ealry game than in late. Perhaps the most productive way to do it is to attack, defeat the Japanese, and then turn it back to the Western Allies.

At the very least, this will give your troops a free move back North and protect your flank by making it the Western Allies' problem again. And if it is before the normal Japanese entry, it's likely doing so will push the Western Allies into the Pacific war that much earlier (possibly as much as a year and more). This can only be beneficial to you if you can pull it off, but it is a long shot.

In terms of technological investments... there simply aren't any. R&D is a luxury China cannot afford, especially without huge Lend-Lease and an enemy on the back foot.

In terms of intelligence, your main focus should be on cranking up your own security (again, by far the weakest in the game). At the start the Japanese have a massive intelligence advantage (as per historical; just ask Doihara) that will let them hit that much harder. Wearing that down- like everything else about the Japanese- is your primary intelligence objective, and might as well be your Only One for most of the game.

If by some chance you are able to do that, you might consider going on the offensive. Start getting into the Emperor's war cabinets and rifle through their notes to steal what research they have. A lot of it won't be of much use since it's for the navy, but it's better than nothing. And that sort of skullduggery (most likely on the Japanese, possibly on others if you are *incredibly lucky*) is the only plausible way to tech up as China.

China is by far the hardest power to play as in this game. It has the weakest military, the weakest industry, the most limited capabilities for power projection, the weakest technology, the weakest growth rate, the fewest potential allies, and no immediate prospect for relief. On top of this, it's being asked to balance a lot of very difficult things at once.

Learning when to raid and when to build up, when to switch production, when to retreat or hold your ground, or when to move are all crucial. It'll probably take a fair bit of effort to get there. But eventually you will.

I hope this helps.

< Message edited by The Almighty Turtle -- 11/6/2014 7:43:25 PM >

(in reply to sushidog)
Post #: 6
RE: Global Glory: China - 1/12/2015 6:48:22 PM   


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Joined: 4/22/2013
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wow, I want to play this game!

(in reply to The Almighty Turtle)
Post #: 7
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