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So.. - 4/18/2014 2:59:18 AM   
Azorn01

 

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I am finally feeling pretty good about my games. Currently I am cruising along, holding my own and expanding. I Fight the occassional battle...pirates are slightly ahead of me and dangerous, but I am doing ok...when suddenly something changed.

I got a message about this huge abandoned ship. Quickly I went up and here is this massive ship suddenly on my side. Hyper space capable, massive range and all the equipment is super high tech it seems.

Here is my situation..I quickly took this ship to a pirate medium space port which had 4000 shields. There were 9 enemy frigates there also. The frigates were destroyed super fast, but the space port..well the shields were only going down slowly. Not only that they seemed to be regenerating. In the end my ship left due to lack of fuel and I was only able to get the shields down to 2900 and I could see them regenerating quickly. I was..super suprised.

My question is..What on earth? How can this medium space port be so strong? Is this uber super new ship I have, not that uber? How are the space port shields regenerating so fast? Lastly, Should I be worried about enemy fleets with super ships like the one I just got? Anyway thanks and thanks for tips on taking down this medium spaceport.
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RE: So.. - 4/18/2014 7:58:15 AM   
pycco

 

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the space sport is not "strong" your sense of strength is skewed. One ship will have a hard time doing enough DPS to bring down things with combat defenses. if you use some of your ships with the ancient ship it will help a lot.

about the enemy fleets, yes.

< Message edited by pycco -- 4/18/2014 9:06:04 AM >

(in reply to Azorn01)
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RE: So.. - 4/18/2014 3:15:37 PM   
Mad Igor

 

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depends on what plot are enabled.
if shakturi is enabled,then you will see a lot of them.
plus you will see ship graveyards.
then you can just repair all those legions of ships and forget about building your own.
if you wan't to play without thise cheats (can't call that somtn else if you have HITech pop uping all around the map) disable original and shakturi plots.

(in reply to pycco)
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RE: So.. - 4/18/2014 3:26:49 PM   
Spidey


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I'm going to venture the guess that the station is perceived by your cruiser as being "bigger", causing the cruiser to sensibly keep its distance, which has the consequence that the distance penalty to its weapons negates most of the damage it's capable of dealing. Many of those derelict ships have a mix of a few torpedos and a whole bunch of short range high damage weapons, which means ships get gently banged up at range and then quickly get torn to shreds when the cruiser gets close. The station has more total firepower than your cruiser, however, and so the cruiser stays out of distance for its short range weapons, using only torpedos as near max range, which isn't going to kill off 4000 shield all that fast.

What I usually do to kill stations is build groups of size 400 torpedo destroyers with tactics set to keep distance. 8-12 usually do the trick without any problems.

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RE: So.. - 4/18/2014 3:48:22 PM   
Ralzakark


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4000 shield strength could, for example, be made up of 40 shields each with a strength of 100 and a recharge rate of 0.5, so the base would be reacharging at 20 points per second. Many shields charge faster than that. Also, a base might have countermeasures which are reducing the amount of damage your ship is inflicting. So it's not that unusual.

Tactics to deal with this situation? More firepower! :)

Yes, you could come across other empires or pirates with similar ships.

(in reply to Spidey)
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RE: So.. - 4/18/2014 3:56:37 PM   
Azorn01

 

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Actually this has all been very enlightening thank you all for the information. Helps me play this out better in the future.

I can say that I do need to worry about pirates with those large ships as..well they have 1 or 2 now.

I will play out attacking stations differently in the future as well.

I also see that those large ancient ships are all different as I lost mine to a pirate large ancient ship via head to head one on one...theres was much better.


(in reply to Azorn01)
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RE: So.. - 4/19/2014 7:03:29 AM   
Jeeves


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Just a gentle hint. If you have the ancient Guardians in your game, then carefully examine each system near them as you explore it. There will be several very nice undamaged ships to claim near the Guardian home system. With a ship in a system zoom to system view and look at the mini map in the bottom right corner for white ship icons...

Lonnie Courtney Clay



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RE: So.. - 4/21/2014 12:03:35 PM   
Fenrisfil

 

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Pirates will always pick up super ships. No way to avoid it, though it will scale down without Shakturi/Original plot events. Even without those graveyards and story events, random deserted ships spawn that while not insanely powerful will be considerably better than a standard start (and way better than a pre-warp start). To make matters worse there is a random chance when one of those ships spawn that it will be a pirate trap and even if you discover it first it will suddenly come to life under a nearby pirate factions control. You actually get more of these random ship/pirate ambush events without the main plot on because there are less things for the ruins/random intelligence retrievals to be generated as (the frequency of pirate ambush ruins also increases).

But if you think that is scary, remember if your running the storyline events Pirates can even repair a planet destroyer. dun dun DUNNNN!

The moral of the story I think (at least if your running with plot events on) is to get out and explore quickly before the pirates snap everything up.

(in reply to Jeeves)
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RE: So.. - 4/21/2014 1:37:51 PM   
Jeeves


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I usually send 64 to 96 explorers and the galaxy is explored in year 4 or 5...

Lonnie


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RE: So.. - 4/21/2014 2:58:58 PM   
Spidey


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How do you manage the upkeep of 60-90 explorers during the first few years? Between space port upkeep, mine building, construction ships, and the raw money needed to buy that many scouts, I'm usually rather hard pushed to afford 15-20. Do you simply mine your home system, up the tax rate, retire your construction ships, and then go all out on scouts for a while?

(in reply to Jeeves)
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RE: So.. - 4/21/2014 3:27:20 PM   
StarLab


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fenrisfil
But if you think that is scary, remember if your running the storyline events Pirates can even repair a planet destroyer. dun dun DUNNNN!

The moral of the story I think (at least if your running with plot events on) is to get out and explore quickly before the pirates snap everything up.


I had a game recently where 1 single Pirate Faction had repaired BOTH planet destroyers. Their faction had a total of 13 ship with over 63,000 firepower.

They sent them both at me... one right after the other. I almost ran out of ships trying to fight those off! Didn't lose a planet tho... It was quite intense!

So yeah, if you have story lines enabled, be actively seeking out those debris fields.

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RE: So.. - 4/22/2014 8:27:32 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Spidey

How do you manage the upkeep of 60-90 explorers during the first few years? Between space port upkeep, mine building, construction ships, and the raw money needed to buy that many scouts, I'm usually rather hard pushed to afford 15-20. Do you simply mine your home system, up the tax rate, retire your construction ships, and then go all out on scouts for a while?


I was just fixing to call BS myself on that many explorers so early in the game. The upkeep alone would bust just about anyone long before they got to that many ships.

(in reply to Spidey)
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RE: So.. - 4/22/2014 9:12:55 AM   
Spidey


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I'm not quite calling BS, though. I'm just making a friendly inquiry on how he's managing it. I believe Lonnie is what one might call fairly experienced with the game, so I'm not ruling out that he has refined his timing in the early game to the point where he actually can afford to put ~750 x 90 into exploration.

If I were to guess, I'd say he doesn't invest much in troops or military early on. I wouldn't be surprised if he dumps all his research facilities onto customized mining stations, targets the cash wonder very early, and spends a few years just biding his time at 0% tax while researching. By the time he's got the tech to scout, his homeworld will likely have grown quite a bit from the low-taxing. High population capital world plus the cash wonder equals a really nice cashflow and if he's not clogged down by military ships, troops, construction ships, and colony ships waiting to go places, then it's not inconceivable that he can afford 90 fairly cheap exploration ships rather early in the game.

What's really surprising to me, however, is that he can manage it in time to have the galaxy scouted before year 5, though of course I'm also assuming at least 1000 systems and a 10 by 10 size galaxy while he might prefer smaller maps with less mind-numbing micro requirements.

< Message edited by Spidey -- 4/22/2014 10:16:32 AM >

(in reply to aaatoysandmore)
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RE: So.. - 4/22/2014 10:05:22 AM   
Icemania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Spidey
I'm not quite calling BS, though. I'm just making a friendly inquiry on how he's managing it. I believe Lonnie is what one might call fairly experienced with the game, so I'm not ruling out that he has refined his timing in the early game to the point where he actually can afford to put ~750 x 90 into exploration.

If I were to guess, I'd say he doesn't invest much in troops or military early on. I wouldn't be surprised if he dumps all his research facilities onto customized mining stations, targets the cash wonder very early, and spends a few years just biding his time at 0% tax while researching. By the time he's got the tech to scout, his homeworld will likely have grown quite a bit from the low-taxing. High population capital world plus the cash wonder equals a really nice cashflow and if he's not clogged down by military ships, troops, construction ships, and colony ships waiting to go places, then it's not inconceivable that he can afford 90 fairly cheap exploration ships rather early in the game.

What's really surprising to me, however, is that he can manage it in time to have the galaxy scouted before year 5, though of course I'm also assuming at least 1000 systems and a 10 by 10 size galaxy while he might prefer smaller maps with less mind-numbing micro requirements.

As I understand UberJeeves plays Classic Mode, Warp Available at Game Start, Normal Difficulty and Cheap Research.

If you quickly build that many custom explorers (in particular extra fuel cells) combined with "move to" exploration (where you check before the "move to" command completes), quickly building some extra gas mining stations and/or a Hydrogen Fuel Reactor, you will be able to find everything interesting within 5 game years on a 1400 star map.

If you allow technology selling and exploit it fully (as UberJeeves does and I allow it during on the occasional game for a laugh) you'll be able to fund everything in parallel ... not just the Exploration Fleet, but crash research, building invasion fleets and rapid expansion. And this applies even on Extreme Difficulty and 1.9.0.13.

I'd like to see what UberJeeves can do on the Friendly Challenge settings as I suspect he'll make mincemeat of my score! Or maybe we try Jeeves settings (or Darkspire) for Game of the Month 3 ...



< Message edited by Icemania -- 4/22/2014 11:06:21 AM >

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RE: So.. - 4/22/2014 4:56:26 PM   
Jeeves


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Quite right! I play galaxies with 20 empires, all with excellent home systems, and I trade tech like crazy, usually playing Quameno, Wekkarrus, or Gizurean nowadays. Cash is often tight, but in the long run early galaxy exploration is worth the pain of micromanagement I endure. By sending out so many explorers on move to rather than explore and checking all explorers every 3-4 days using the cycle explorer button, I meet enough empires within 2 years to expand my fleet. It also helps that I play with very many pirate gangs of normal strength, getting me contact with AI empires from pirate gang purchases too. I get the fuel and resources to build explorers from having military mining ships, and I conquer independents to get civ cash as early as possible, with reputation often nasty and sometimes notorious. Once I was even Evil LOL.


Lonnie Courtney Clay


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Live long and prosper!

Lonnie Courtney Clay

(in reply to Icemania)
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RE: So.. - 4/22/2014 6:25:40 PM   
Spidey


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@ Ice

Tech-selling and day 1 warp access would definitely go a long way in explaining how he's getting it done in four-five years. Different assumptions really do affect the conclusion, I must say.

Unfortunately that approach just isn't working for me, as I just don't have the spine to keep it going, constantly getting bored and looking for some compromise that doesn't make me want to punch a wall. My current approach is a two-wave system where the first wave simply queues up a ton of move to orders to different systems, giving me a basic "lay of the land", at which point I can rush scout anything that looks interesting and disregard empty or barren systems. It's way slower than super-micro but it's still a lot faster than waiting for auto-scouting and I avoid getting my hands messed up.

@ Lonnie

I agree about the value of early scouting, but I've got to say that you're taking it to an extreme I wasn't quite expecting. Building up cash from tech selling in order to fund the troops to invade a bunch of indies, in turn boosting civilian economic growth, converting some of their cash on hand into further empire banking, and making up for what I'm guessing is a limited amount of actual colonization on your part until later in the game when you can target the special planets.

Still, that micro is intense. I salute you for having the stomach for it, but by the time I've scouted about a third of the galaxy, I'm generally sick of having to nurse my explorers, and I'm generally lax enough about efficiency to not worry about them until they officially finish their orders.

< Message edited by Spidey -- 4/22/2014 7:38:13 PM >

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RE: So.. - 4/23/2014 10:23:35 AM   
Icemania


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I hear you Spidey, I hear you. For a while I stopped playing Distant Worlds due to the need for Explorer Micro but as the Space Strategy 4X market is so weak ...

The main upgrade needed in Distant Worlds is the AI. And due to the sheer amount of time taken by the player to do Exploration micro properly as compared to other micro, the number 1 AI issue in my opinion is Exploration.

There are some improvements that can be made that are not algorithmically complex i.e. that will not slow the game down due to excessive computation.

1. Change the AI to change exploration targets when the resource is discovered (i.e. with Proximity Arrays). At the moment the AI will waste a huge amount of time going to the centre of the target and only then change targets. When a planet has ruins that need investigating this maybe needed but otherwise it should change missions as soon as the resources are revealed.

2. The AI does not prioritise exploration targets. Early game in nearby systems I may want to explore everything. But after that I focus on exploring planets with ruins, storyline targets (e.g. debris fields, supply outposts etc), planets that may have Super Luxuries (i.e. always certain types) and perhaps also colonisable planets. To improve this we could have an automation window that allows us to turn on or off AI exploration targets by category. This way time is not wasted exploring every useless ball of rock and gas giant in existence.

Those two suggestions alone would massively decrease the time required by the AI to explore and find targets of strategic interest. Some Human Players would be more inclined to automate while the AI Empires would also be more competitive.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 4/23/2014 11:27:38 AM >

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RE: So.. - 4/23/2014 12:21:47 PM   
Jeeves


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Actually exploring the galaxy only takes the first two weeks of playing the game, less than 150 hours for me, and my games typically last 700+ hours. I feel a certain excitement every time I find a ruins...

What I would really like is a reduction in the amount of micromanagement for state run mining, with a repeat order to mine as an option, in other words not just mine target but mine it, deliver cargo and go back to mine it again until I change its orders. That would make me very happy. On the other hand, some people consider state run mining ships to be an exploit LOL...

Lonnie Courtney Clay
Edit : Icemania - I am not really accustomed to playing under trying circumstances, so I'll decline your challenge to play the challenge games setup. I am probably the most experienced Distant Worlds player, with over 8000 hours of play, and exploit every chance to give myself an advantage over the AI. I don't learn much from playing anymore, but get great pleasure from building colossal empires that dominate then conquer the galaxy...
When Universe is released I'll set up a challenge game and give after action reports weekly on Fridays to mark my progress. We can compare my micromanagement intense play style to other players lazy methods.



< Message edited by Jeeves -- 4/23/2014 1:32:37 PM >


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RE: So.. - 4/23/2014 12:53:17 PM   
Icemania


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I'll pass on the micro of State Mining Ships, the micro of Explorers is more than enough for me! With all due respect I think the developers should be prioritising improvements that relate to the broader audience rather than State Mining.

If you play under more difficult circumstances that colossal empire at the end might be even more satisfying. New strategies might emerge. Surely it's time to get out of that comfort zone ... .

As for your friendly challenge ... it's accepted ... we need some Korabbian Spice around here! Who else will join the fun? But if you chose normal difficulty and classic mode, I might die of boredom ...



< Message edited by Icemania -- 4/23/2014 1:53:47 PM >

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RE: So.. - 4/23/2014 2:10:42 PM   
Jeeves


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I've been thinking about trying hard, because there's more AI empire cash to get by trading, to offset the reduced income from my own colonies. But I'll definitely allow tech trading, which you can choose to not utilize if you really want to be short on cash...

I haven't bugged Elliot about state miners, because as you say it is micromanagement. But if you could get a better mining allocation algorithm for civilian miners, and allow more civilian miners, then state miners would not be needed as badly. I just don't want to wait for the lousy freighters to deliver my cargo a year or more after it is needed at the spaceports...

Lonnie Courtney Clay


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Live long and prosper!

Lonnie Courtney Clay

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RE: So.. - 4/23/2014 6:12:39 PM   
Fenrisfil

 

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To be fair you don't have to go to extremes to get an advantage and/or keep ahead of the pirates in this game. It never hurts to have a few more explorers early on however.

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RE: So.. - 4/26/2014 12:41:15 PM   
Icemania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeeves
I've been thinking about trying hard, because there's more AI empire cash to get by trading, to offset the reduced income from my own colonies. But I'll definitely allow tech trading, which you can choose to not utilize if you really want to be short on cash...

This will not make any material difference. The AI will have more cash which you can easily take from them by allowing the broken technology selling mechanic. Again, by allowing technology trading you can do everything in parallel which limits strategic choices.

After 8000 hours of gameplay I'd recommend considering a more significant change.

(in reply to Jeeves)
Post #: 22
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