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Has the NDA already expired?

 
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Has the NDA already expired? - 4/16/2014 4:28:27 PM   
Extraneous

 

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Has the NDA already expired

quote:

Tester acknowledges that disclosure of Confidential information could cause serious harm to Publisher and, as an essential term and condition in the test, agrees not to disclose Confidential information to any person or organization (except those expressly indicated by Publisher) until the earlier of

(a) the date which Publisher first make this information publicly available, or
(b) the date on which Publisher ships the Game to the general public (Non-Disclosure Period).


During the Non-Disclosure Period, Tester agrees not to disseminate, publish, or otherwise communicate any review, account, description or other information concerning the Game. Except directly to Publisher or with express consent of Publisher. Tester further agrees not to copy, decompile, translate, modify, printout, disassemble, or reverse engineer the Game at any time during or after the beta test.



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RE: Has the NDA already expired? - 4/16/2014 4:38:14 PM   
Ubercat

 

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I hope you aren't asking this because you feel compelled to justify anything to trolls.

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(in reply to Extraneous)
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RE: Has the NDA already expired? - 4/16/2014 5:01:44 PM   
Kronans

 

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No those that testing the game are not saying anything that is new on the testing now. that is still in the NDA

(in reply to Ubercat)
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RE: Has the NDA already expired? - 4/16/2014 6:36:10 PM   
Centuur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ubercat

I hope you aren't asking this because you feel compelled to justify anything to trolls.


Let me put it his way. Everyone has a freedom of speech and has the right to express his views on things. I can imagine that Extranous wants to put his views on things in this forums as soon as he can if his NDA expires. It's his decision to do this. Now, we might have had some differences, and he may be a stubborn person to convince when discussing the rules, but that's not trolling at all, I believe.

And since he has a long time to think about how to put things in the forum, I expect his post to be to the point, in clear words and not in any way abusive. That's how I've seen him behave in the past and I don't think that's going to be different. It's not like he hasn't had time to thing about things (and isn't it true that most times people press the "OK" button to post things to fast, when they are upset...).

Now, what he's going to put in here? I don't know. Would I agree with him? Perhaps, perhaps not. That remains to be seen...

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RE: Has the NDA already expired? - 4/16/2014 8:39:26 PM   
michaelbaldur


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it is a important question. I don´t know the answer.


maybe Eric can answer this

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beta tester and Mwif expert

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RE: Has the NDA already expired? - 4/16/2014 9:41:18 PM   
bo

 

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Personally I would like to hear what Extraneous has to say about the game and what has happened before I became a beta tester. Looking forward to his comments.

Bo

(in reply to Extraneous)
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RE: Has the NDA already expired? - 4/16/2014 11:27:04 PM   
RickInVA

 

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quote:

(b) the date on which Publisher ships the Game to the general public (Non-Disclosure Period).


Is there some doubt that the Publisher has shipped the Game to the general public? If this has not happened yet, I don't understand how I have a copy and am playing it.

Am I missing something here? This seems about as straight forward as can be.

(in reply to bo)
Post #: 7
RE: Has the NDA already expired? - 4/16/2014 11:39:48 PM   
Zartacla

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
Tester further agrees not to copy, decompile, translate, modify, printout, disassemble, or reverse engineer the Game at any time during or after the beta test.


Not to be overly picky, but I think some Beta testers have already broken this part of the NDA with their work on mods. It may seem nit picky or irrelevant, but it's not. There are well established legal reasons that companies enforce trivial parts of contracts, sometimes even when it goes against their own best interests to do so.

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 8
RE: Has the NDA already expired? - 4/16/2014 11:46:42 PM   
Ubercat

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ubercat

I hope you aren't asking this because you feel compelled to justify anything to trolls.


Let me put it his way. Everyone has a freedom of speech and has the right to express his views on things. I can imagine that Extranous wants to put his views on things in this forums as soon as he can if his NDA expires. It's his decision to do this. Now, we might have had some differences, and he may be a stubborn person to convince when discussing the rules, but that's not trolling at all, I believe.

And since he has a long time to think about how to put things in the forum, I expect his post to be to the point, in clear words and not in any way abusive. That's how I've seen him behave in the past and I don't think that's going to be different. It's not like he hasn't had time to thing about things (and isn't it true that most times people press the "OK" button to post things to fast, when they are upset...).

Now, what he's going to put in here? I don't know. Would I agree with him? Perhaps, perhaps not. That remains to be seen...


I was not implying that Extraneous is a troll. I doubt that he would feel compelled to justify anything to himself anyway.

_____________________________

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RE: Has the NDA already expired? - 4/17/2014 1:44:19 AM   
Missouri_Rebel


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I'm not sure of the history here so I'm not sure what could be said, but I would just hope that anything posted here wouldn't be out of malice. I think one needs to weigh what they are trying to gain by disclosing things that were previously communicated in a controlled environment. Everything I've seen so far since I came on board has been pretty standard fare. A guy making the game and some dedicated testers doing their best to help out. I'm not much help but a few of the beta guys are really doing an excellent job bug hunting etc.

Part of me is curious as to why the things you want to say are so important at this point and the other part wonders what purpose it might serve. Vindication? Justification? Revenge?

Maybe I'm just being cynical, but somehow it just doesn't sit right with me.

So out with it Extraneous and let us be done with this whole sordid affair, for better or worse.

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RE: Has the NDA already expired? - 4/17/2014 2:46:14 PM   
CrusssDaddy

 

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I'd keep it under your hat, Extraneous. Matrix and Steve may be bumbletons when it comes to games, but they are absolutely LETHAL in deploying into spirited action their highly trained cadre of attack lawyers. After you guys shelled out $200 for books and a faulty download, they are also well endowed with limitless funds to engage their most fanciful impulses toward revenge.

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RE: Has the NDA already expired? - 4/17/2014 3:40:55 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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CrusssDaddy,

What I do know is the forum rules and personal attacks are not allowed. Criticism is fine, but the above crosses the line.

Extraneous,

The testing period for WIF was so long that I know many different variants of the NDA may have been used over all those years. I would go with whatever your NDA says. In general, we normally don't worry about tester NDAs after the game has been released.

Regards,

- Erik


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Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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RE: Has the NDA already expired? - 4/17/2014 5:32:11 PM   
Centuur


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Thank Erik, for giving Extranous the opportunity to put his views in here, whatever they may be...

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Peter

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RE: Has the NDA already expired? - 4/18/2014 5:55:08 AM   
CrusssDaddy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

CrusssDaddy,

What I do know is the forum rules and personal attacks are not allowed. Criticism is fine, but the above crosses the line.

Regards,

- Erik



Are you assuming "bumbletons" is pejorative? For all you know it could mean, "persons of exceptionally clever thought and diligent work habits." Unlikely, but you never know...

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 14
RE: Has the NDA already expired? - 4/18/2014 4:03:33 PM   
Extraneous

 

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So it is up to me to decide if the NDA has expired for me. Then it has expired.


Why I quit the MWiF Beta test.

I have omitted most names/aliases because Steve has a habit of deleting my posts/threads if I use them.


First a little background on the genesis of World in Flames (WiF) on the computer.

In the early part of this century I started with the Australian Design Group (ADG) Beta test of World in Flames (CWiF). I had Windows 95 on my computer and we submitted our bug reports and rules questions directly to ADG. We all looked forward to receiving the weekly reports and updates on the corrections to the game.

Around 2003 Matrix Games acquired the rights to the computer version of WiF. Eventually Steve (Shannon V. OKeets) was assigned to develop the game.

I suggested the rules be set up as a HTML document (which I had been working on) Steve declined this idea.

I offered my spreadsheet to calculate production in the forums.

I offered my spreadsheet for 30~Setup © 2003, AUSTRALIAN DESIGN GROUP in the forums.

Steve asked me to go through the rules a create a list of the WiF options for him.

I (AKA Mziln) was privileged to be selected in the first round of individuals selected for the MWiF beta.

One of the ways to get into the beta was to do write up for the units in WiF. Just about everyone was helping with doing write ups.

I did write ups for the Japanese army.

I did some write ups for the navies of: Belgium, Brazil, Finland, Nationalist China, Portugal, the Netherlands, the Japanese, and helped with others.


The MWiF Beta started.

Each beta tester selected their preference for a given scenario. I selected "24.4.7 The Global war: Sep/Oct 1939 ~ Jul/Aug 1945".

It was soon realized that we needed to organize our bug reports and we selected a template for bug reporting. It contained the bug encountered, description, severity, description of where and when the bug was encountered, and a sequence number for the individuals bug report.

I voiced my opinion that the sequence number added nothing to the reporting process. In my view it was only a way to add to the ego of the individual reporting the bugs (IE. I have reported more bugs than you have therefore I am more important than you are).

We rapidly exceeded in reporting over 300 bugs.

Froonp (Patrice) was designated as the only contact to ADG with questions on the rules. I would have preferred Steve (the developer) to be the contact with ADG rather than a beta tester as it gives to much control of the rules to the individual.

We had to constantly explain to Steve:
Not all of us had two monitors and he needed to reset his settings on the updates.
We needed to have a way of saving the CP set up so every time the CW started a game you didn't have to set up 81 CP.

It was noticed the game locked up if you attempted to do a port strike. This was a known bug to limit the testing of the game.
I thought this was a good idea at the time and would allow Steve time to isolate other bugs. It continued until I left the beta. It still allowed me to romp and stomp in Belgium as the Germans so I was only slightly worried.


Unusual events started to occur among the beta testers.

I had to post my messages in the beta test forums at least three times to get any response.

I was told not to worry about the rules or to look rules up.

I was now required to post links to any of my information on the write ups and to post my write ups in the forums to be checked by someone who was not in the beta.

Individuals who had made minimal post were getting preference over individuals who had been making numerous posts and contributing to the write ups.

Of course by now if Patrice put your name forward you were almost assured a place in the beta. Patrice now suggested that some of the older beta testers should quit and make room for new beta testers. Please note that Patrice did not offer to leave the beta.

Finally after the now usual three posts it was admitted that all rulings would come from the WiF Yahoo Group.


The short version.

I saw that as a beta tester my views were not welcome, anything I posted was now subject to suspicion, all rules were now handled by individuals from the WiF Yahoo Group, and Patrice (a beta tester) was in charge.

This was totally unacceptable to me and in private emails between Steve and myself (with Patrice butting in) I submitted my resignation from the MWiF beta test. I agreed to erase all copies of MWiF from my system with the provision that my name or alias not be associated with MWiF. I told Steve to give any credit for anything I had done in the beta to anyone else with Patrice in particular.



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RE: Has the NDA already expired? - 4/18/2014 4:21:54 PM   
pzgndr

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
So it is up to me to decide if the NDA has expired for me. Then it has expired.


NDA or not, there is still the quaint notion of professional courtesy and a reasonable expectation to not discuss certain confidential behind-the-scenes discussions/arguments.

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 16
RE: Has the NDA already expired? - 4/18/2014 4:27:10 PM   
Centuur


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I've come to the conclusion (and I wasn't around in the testing team at that time), that if I read this, there was a difference regarding the policy on how to do what. That's all and it's to bad that you couldn't live with it at that moment.

I can only say that if such things are happening, everyone has a choice to make. Accept things or not. If you can't agree on things, leave. That's often better than to stay on, working in a way you don't approve.

In my opinion: when two sides start to fight, both sides are at fault...



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Peter

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RE: Has the NDA already expired? - 4/18/2014 4:42:04 PM   
Zartacla

 

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What was the point of posting that? It is, at best, gossip - and not terribly interesting gossip at that.

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RE: Has the NDA already expired? - 4/18/2014 4:58:37 PM   
warspite1


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I've got to say, after the big build up I was expecting some pretty major revelations and some really juicy gossip......

Oh well, no one fear, I will soon be publishing my Beta Test memoirs entitled: "warspite1 - a Beta Tester's tale". A roaring roller coaster of a novel in 400 chapters - with hot gypsies thrown in!

I give below a selection of comments from those lucky enough to have been given a pre-publication reading:

Max Hastings:

"A tour de force - I loved chapter 3 about CrusssDaddy entitled "What the $%^& is a bumbleton? Very moving".

New York Post:

"Incredible. I've never read about the exploits of a beta tester quite like this. Some of these stories are simply unbelievable".

The Mail On Sunday:

"warspite1 quits beta testing team - is illegal immigration to blame?"

The Sun:

"Cor! Look at the t*ts on that!!"

The National Enquirer:

"Elvis lives and he's beta testing MWIF!!"


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England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




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RE: Has the NDA already expired? - 4/18/2014 6:43:33 PM   
CrusssDaddy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Max Hastings:

"A tour de force - I loved chapter 3 about CrusssDaddy entitled "What the $%^& is a bumbleton? Very moving".



I would like it known -- for the record -- that I was asked to cooperate in the writing of that chapter and I refused. The author's insights into what is and is not a bumbleton are wholly his own, and grossly inaccurate I'd wager.

Back to business: Gosh, this was a disappointing revelation. I had my popcorn out ready for a good ol' fashioned hootenanny and it's just some dude coming to the uncomfortable, slightly tearful understanding that hobbyist projects may lack in professional oversight, accountability and management.

Gimme something tasty to eat...!

(in reply to warspite1)
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RE: Has the NDA already expired? - 4/18/2014 7:03:45 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Max Hastings:

"A tour de force - I loved chapter 3 about CrusssDaddy entitled "What the $%^& is a bumbleton? Very moving".



I would like it known -- for the record -- that I was asked to cooperate in the writing of that chapter and I refused. The author's insights into what is and is not a bumbleton are wholly his own, and grossly inaccurate I'd wager.

Back to business: Gosh, this was a disappointing revelation. I had my popcorn out ready for a good ol' fashioned hootenanny and it's just some dude coming to the uncomfortable, slightly tearful understanding that hobbyist projects may lack in professional oversight, accountability and management.

Gimme something tasty to eat...!

warspite1

How do you know they are inaccurate? Yes, of course they are my own thoughts - on the basis that there is no such word as bumbleton and you would need to be a $%%^&&&^ bumbleton to use a word like bumbleton in the first place .

Now run along bumbleton, I am waiting for Part II of Extraneous's memoires


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RE: Has the NDA already expired? - 4/18/2014 10:06:52 PM   
Extraneous

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
So it is up to me to decide if the NDA has expired for me. Then it has expired.


NDA or not, there is still the quaint notion of professional courtesy and a reasonable expectation to not discuss certain confidential behind-the-scenes discussions/arguments.


Oh by the way this is the polite version so it wouldn't be automatically deleted by Steve. As some of my other posts have been.

Is Patrice still in the beta or does his job at ADG cause a conflict of interests?



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RE: Has the NDA already expired? - 4/18/2014 11:17:22 PM   
WarHunter


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To put forth your best effort and come away feeling marginalized is something i can understand.
Everyone has had those moments in life. At least i believe that.

I do hope with this post closure comes to Extraneous. No need to carry the weight of it any longer.

He has done a lot of work. Makes no difference if his name is on it or not. We all know differently. Knowing and getting history correct, is what we are all about.

Right?

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RE: Has the NDA already expired? - 4/19/2014 1:10:41 AM   
bo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous


quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
So it is up to me to decide if the NDA has expired for me. Then it has expired.


NDA or not, there is still the quaint notion of professional courtesy and a reasonable expectation to not discuss certain confidential behind-the-scenes discussions/arguments.


Oh by the way this is the polite version so it wouldn't be automatically deleted by Steve. As some of my other posts have been.

Is Patrice still in the beta or does his job at ADG cause a conflict of interests?




Extraneous stop being Mr. Polite please. What you have said above might be standard fare with gaming testers, just guessing. Spit it out do not hold back, I want to hear what went down from your perspective, let us decide if you have been injured helping Steve with WIF. I will tell you this, if Steve deletes anything you have to say I would be terribly disappointed in him. You say he has deleted other posts by you, what posts and when? Was your problems with Steve or Patrice or both? Taking no sides here one way or another.

Bo

< Message edited by bo -- 4/19/2014 2:11:24 AM >

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 24
RE: Has the NDA already expired? - 4/19/2014 10:07:29 AM   
Extraneous

 

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As to naming names.

If you haven't figured it out yet this is going to be a shock for you. I don't post anything without something I can show in black and white.


I will say this somehow Wosung (who was not part of the beta at the time) became the expert on the Japanese. I was told by Patrice to post my write ups for the Japanese in the forums so he could check my work. As far as I know he never proof read my write ups. Considering my work on "For the Purists" this was kind of doubly insulting don't you think? Once being told by another beta tester what to do and once for doing it and having it ignored.

And I cannot forget the warm (flaming) welcome you all gave me on my first posts as Extraneous. Championed by who else but Patrice.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ubercat
I hope you aren't asking this because you feel compelled to justify anything to trolls.


In Internet slang, a troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog), either accidentally or with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

This sense of the word troll and its associated verb trolling are associated with Internet discourse, but have been used more widely. Media attention in recent years has equated trolling with online harassment. For example, mass media has used troll to describe "a person who defaces Internet tribute sites with the aim of causing grief to families."

Yup I'm a Troll because all my posts are Extraneous


quote:

Extraneous stop being Mr. Polite please. What you have said above might be standard fare with gaming testers, just guessing. Spit it out do not hold back, I want to hear what went down from your perspective, let us decide if you have been injured helping Steve with WIF. I will tell you this, if Steve deletes anything you have to say I would be terribly disappointed in him. You say he has deleted other posts by you, what posts and when? Was your problems with Steve or Patrice or both? Taking no sides here one way or another.

Bo


Bo I am sending you a PM.



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Post #: 25
RE: Has the NDA already expired? - 4/19/2014 1:06:43 PM   
Centuur


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Let me say something. I don't consider you to be a troll, never have. Sure, your name suggests otherwise, but you are not. Disappointed as you may be in the way things were done in the past, I still think your imput is there in the game.

And I don't want to know things in detail which went wrong in those days. Things happen. **** happens. And that's it. Time to move on...

< Message edited by Centuur -- 4/19/2014 2:06:58 PM >


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Peter

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Post #: 26
RE: Has the NDA already expired? - 4/19/2014 1:41:48 PM   
Ubercat

 

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From: Near Allentown, PA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ubercat
I hope you aren't asking this because you feel compelled to justify anything to trolls.


Yup I'm a Troll because all my posts are Extraneous



I was not calling you a troll, nor even trying to imply that you were one. I thought the structure of my OP made that pretty clear but you're the second person to think I was calling you one!

In another thread, everyones favorite troll from Berlin was daring beta testers to reveal info from the beta forum. You turned around and started a thread about the NDA, so I thought you were rising to his bait.

_____________________________

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Post #: 27
RE: Has the NDA already expired? - 4/19/2014 2:38:51 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Hi Extraneous,

So you joined the beta team in 2006, around what time did you resign?

MWIF has been in development and testing so long that I'm sure there are other similar stories out there. Frankly, almost every team has some burned bridges and some internal politics at some point. We also typically find that if 10 testers sign up, perhaps 2-3 stay for the long run as for various reasons including great differences between the expectation and reality of testing and small group game development, it's not what the rest were looking for.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience. I encourage you to try other test teams in the future if you are interested though, every project is different.

Regards,

- Erik

< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 4/19/2014 3:40:10 PM >


_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

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Post #: 28
RE: Has the NDA already expired? - 4/20/2014 2:05:27 PM   
Extraneous

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Hi Extraneous,

So you joined the beta team in 2006, around what time did you resign?

MWIF has been in development and testing so long that I'm sure there are other similar stories out there. Frankly, almost every team has some burned bridges and some internal politics at some point. We also typically find that if 10 testers sign up, perhaps 2-3 stay for the long run as for various reasons including great differences between the expectation and reality of testing and small group game development, it's not what the rest were looking for.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience. I encourage you to try other test teams in the future if you are interested though, every project is different.

Regards,

- Erik



Yes, I joined the beta 12/28/2006

Thanks for the correction. My eyes are not what they used to be and I had it down as 2005 on my list of beta testers. Yes, I have a list of the first eight (8) groups of beta testers.



The only game I was interested in was MWiF. Although I have purchased other Matrix products and downloaded games from Matrix.

I cannot speculate on any of the reasons others have left the MWiF beta. Since I was not privileged to that information.



_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
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