A Discussion on Allied Airframe Numbers

[John 3rd]

In my 2x1 there has been discussion on Allied plane numbers. I thought, to be fair, that this might be a good topic to openly Post and discuss on the Scenario Design side of the Forum. With permission, this is the note I got from Jim earlier today:

From: John R. Cochran III
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 8:06 PM

Hey Guys.

The actual answer to the above questioning is that the productions numbers are ABOVE the historical numbers. Michael and I added production in some areas. You’re benefiting by that with the Hurricanes and B-25 with the Dutch. Allied air is SOOOOO delicate at this stage. Not enough of anything and LOTS of needs anywhere. There is where the Japanese player WANTS to engage the Allied player in the air to smash those airframes before production really ramps up. That is how I imagine the loss of Yorktown with all those F4F was a really nasty blow. Same can be said for those ships I sunk by Tahiti. Looked like B-17s. Also hurts a bunch as well.

We can certainly talk about this if you have any concrete proposals.
John


Jim's Response:

John,

Larry and I both agree winning is not realistic for us and are playing for the experience, I hope that doesn’t ruin it for you and we will try our hardest to win, just there is no wiggle room and I’d gladly trade ALL future draft picks for a few F4F-3 and B-17’s TODAY!!!

You are too good of a player for me as I said in the beginning, my experience was mostly with stock and your first mod was better to play against Larry than stock, but the latest revision is just too hard, again in my HONEST opinion – I’m really not trying to slam you – you’re a helluva good player and a really good guy. You have put hundreds of hours into this mod and I recognize that, but is the average “Joe Allied Player” is going to play because they have to play an actual year’s worth before they’re competitive as the Allies? It seems you’ve created the grognard’s grognard game, the top 5% of the game and the playing pool will be really small.

Do you remember the question you asked about CR throwing the kitchen sink at you in that past game? If he was playing this game it would not be possible to replicate it. there wouldn’t be enough shipping to take his troops to Malaysia, and he couldn’t refit his fighters after one engagement never mind a months worth of engagements. His play would have been as suicidal as my Yorktown expedition under these conditions.


1) Can you explain production for bombers? According to Wikipedia in September 1942 there was a peak of 168 B-17s in the 5th Air Force, in March 42 before all of them being switched over to other aircraft by mid-1943. I lost around 40 B-17’s SUNK and I still only have 49 B-17’s left. with no replacements/pool. That puts me just under the historical curve for March 42, but adding only 15 planes per month drops me below by September 1942 because the historical figures included replacements in the 168 peak number. The operational losses (all causes) for B-17’s in the Pacific was 30% – so adding 30% to 168 actual aircraft would be an additional 50 aircraft needed to reach the historical peak they attained.

2) What’s with the Dutch love? A 5X replacement value in fighters over USAAF?, when they are historically impotent? (The Dutch only got absolute rejects the other air forces didn’t want or refused to use) Especially in this game as they are Sir Robin’ed at Soerabaja... If I hadn’t pulled all the supplies back there when I took over from Larry – you would already own the whole dang thing (again I’m not blaming you for being a good player), just there was no historical background to pick the Dutch reinforcement IMHO... Strengthen the Aussies, Brits, USA/USN? that might make a difference for the Allies, but I just cant see any Allied advantage choosing Dutch – they are basically withdrawn and can’t respawn later in the game without a HQ/base which dies in Soerabaja (in this game at least).

3) Buff’s do not belong in the same air as Zeroes... BUT even Buff’s will attrit a few Zeroes, much more than the none I have to offer right now. The Japanese player has a multitude of options, can’t I get one concession?. Build reserve entry level fighter or bomber groups into the game that must be purchased with PP’s to bring in the game. Now its my option as at least I can choose to have options – not the locked in and locked down as you have it now. Buy extra Buff’s and now I can’t change HQ for the troops for lack of PP’s? its still a choice I get to make – “not take it or leave it” as the mod has it now.


Concrete suggestions – The ones I’d like to see, while keeping your Japanese as is...

A) Does the coding allow “disabling” future aircraft for existing upgraded editions? The F4F-3 continues to ramp up instead of stopping, penalty is the F4F-4 gets 50% production penalty for the rest of the run. The F4F3-A and maybe a B version with minimum upgrades but the planes show up quicker because the production doesn’t stop? (see reasoning above) THE total number of fighters would stay the same – the available date is what changes. Under conditions like we’re playing now I would foresee the Joint Chiefs pounding the table for more fighters RIGHT NOW!!! The hell with tomorrow, if we don’t survive today! Therefore Grumman doesn’t stop building F4F-3’s...its reasonable and possible – not off the wall like asking for the Nimitz to appear out of the storm clouds...

B) Buying aircraft with PP’s, The whole mod premise is the Japanese are not following historical doctrine, why is it imperative the US/Allies do so strictly? If you made more Cape Town auto-convoys with reserve airgroups instead, or they were “killed” and had to be bought out with PP’s. Then the Allied player has the option of transferring the planes to another group or disbanding them into the pools... Again its an option the Allied player has to make and there are consequences for doing it built in.



Would like an open discussion on this. Suggestions and comments shall be appreciated.

[John 3rd]

In these Mods and the pure vanilla forms of AE, I wonder how much validity is in the commentary. Dan (Canoerebel) spoke on the same topic when we had our brawl going. It upset him quite a bit.

[moore4807]

Everybody,

I am not complaining per se about the flat numbers of aircraft assigned, early on the Japanese enjoyed a HUGE superiority in both aircraft and experienced pilots. I think for the game purposes the ability of the Japanese to manipulate their builds of ships and planes is OK.

However with the Allies locked in and locked down amount of planes available (at least from the B-17 example above) shows one snapshot where the USAAF cannot compete against the Japanese even in March. I cannot change out the B-17E aircraft of the 34th BG because there are no other bombers with enough available aircraft to swap out and I have to pay 50PP to change planes. (That would be OK - if I could get the aircraft) The rules here make 37 B-17E's useless numbers for the Allies because they cannot change commands to a fighting area, OR swap out with another type bomber (not enough aircraft).

I'm not asking for 400 more bombers or fighters, I'm also not asking for 70+ experienced pilots... As the Allied player give me the option that would have existed IRL. B-17D's just disappear when disbanded in the Phillipines, even though IRL they went to Australia and were sent back to USA by Gen. Kenney in Mar 42. What happened to them? Do you really think Kenney would of released them if Perth was in Japanese hands? H*ll no! But it makes no sense in the game to pay PP to move them to Australia because they get withdrawn before they become effective for the Allies. It makes even less sense to pay PP's for them by ignoring their cutoff date too. HOWEVER those same B-17D's are GOLDEN if I can use them to backfill a West Coast stranded group and free up a couple B-17E's while the West Coast units train with the B-17D's until they disband. Then I would hope those planes go back in the pool - not just disappear like they do now.

I see there is 150+ B-17G bombers available each month in 1945... I would happily forfeit ALL of them for 10 more B-17D's a month in 1942... The aircrews are minimally experienced anyway in 1942, so they are there to blunt the Japanese thrust into the Pacific.

[witpqs]

Howdy - I have been able to get B-17D, E, and F air frames on the front lines quite well. It sounds like you are having a management problem with squadrons versus planes versus upgrades versus pools. Frankly, that's hardly surprising as I also had to learn how to manage those things in some semblance of harmony. BTW I avoid paying PP for plane upgrades, so I am not implying that you have to.

I'm not sure if at this point in the campaign you have (inadvertently) done things to 'strand' some planes in the pool or something like that, but probably not, so you should be able to get them on line.

Certainly this might involve paying PP for some squadrons (ones that do NOT withdraw later) to go to the fighting zones, but you have to do that anyway.

Can you explain a bit more how it is the the Allies are "locked down" as you put it? Are there some HRs that are preventing you from buying out relevant squadrons or something?

Might take me a while to respond again, we are heading out shortly.

[moore4807]

Here is a short story explaining my dilemma and frustration.

[moore4807]

Ok Three screen shots to explain the dilemma...[:D]

[moore4807]

and this is what happens if I try to withdraw the BG.

[moore4807]

and finally if I choose to disband them? Now count 37 Heavy bombers as trash even though they are counting as part of my forces, I CAN'T use them!!!

[moore4807]

B-18's in the 41st BG...

[moore4807]

Here the proof it's another "dead" BG because of lack of replacement airframes.

[moore4807]

That is my main gripe with the mod, I have no problem with the Japanese getting to modify the historical building, just don't tie my hands behind my back when I'm not an ACE player... Right now the 37 "dead" B-17's are going to go down the tubes and there is nothing as the US player I can do about it.

[moore4807]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Howdy - 1) I have been able to get B-17D, E, and F air frames on the front lines quite well.

In this Mod? I have not had any problems like this in my past game against Larry, or playing the Stock version...


2) It sounds like you are having a management problem with squadrons versus planes versus upgrades versus pools. Frankly, that's hardly surprising as I also had to learn how to manage those things in some semblance of harmony. BTW I avoid paying PP for plane upgrades, so I am not implying that you have to.

Why YES, I will absolutely agree I have a management problem here...[:D]


3) I'm not sure if at this point in the campaign you have (inadvertently) done things to 'strand' some planes in the pool or something like that, but probably not, so you should be able to get them on line.

Certainly this might involve paying PP for some squadrons (ones that do NOT withdraw later) to go to the fighting zones, but you have to do that anyway.

The loss of just under 40 B-17D/E airframes trying to ship them to Australia hurt definitely. but they were the same aircraft as what I am trying to free up here, so it would not have solved my problem stated above.


4) Can you explain a bit more how it is the the Allies are "locked down" as you put it? Are there some HRs that are preventing you from buying out relevant squadrons or something?

The not just the production numbers here are what make me shake my head - Please remember I'm married so I'm used to being wrong! [:D] I just have spent a lifetime playing and reading about WWII and being a numbers geek... The production is lower than IRL but not sooo wildly off target... Combined with the restrictions I've showed above on what/where the planes can be/go, is where I'm stumbling badly.

Things that worked ok before are now bottled/backed up or plain impossible to do now... Is that me? Playing against a superior opponent has highlighted the flaws in my/our game... but also I probably never needed those 37 bombers and this 25th time of playing the game is when I'm first noticing the problem, it is with a "new" version of the mod? Wouldn't that raise questions in your mind too?

While I understand the need to "control" the Allied player from just dumping everything into the Pacific bases, This mod allows more forces the Japanese player can have at will as long as he has the PP's.

If I'm wrong - beat me senseless and we'll get on with it. But I would like a reasoning to go with the beating please! [:'(]


Might take me a while to respond again, we are heading out shortly.

Hope you had a good time while out!

[moore4807]

JuanG just posted almost the same idea I'm pitching and he does it so much better!!!!

It's found here in mods called "Concept - Allied Aircraft 'Purchases'"
tm.asp?m=3532557

[ny59giants]

Jim,

Please look at my new AAR to see what I've been doing as Allies playing this mod.

tm.asp?m=3576852

B-17s - Right now I have the 19th BG that started in Philippines over in India. 4 of them have B-17D and one with B-17E. I have another 7 B-17E BS groups on map and an orphan from the 19th BG still at Pearl with the "D" model. 26 "E" are in the pool as I just withdrew a couple of BS of the 7th BG. I will use them to fill out some of the reinforcements that are coming in soon (307 & 308 BG come in mid-April and will need airframes before deployment). Don't forget that some withdrawls have the planes going into the pool while others take their planes with them. The Allies are really short of 4e bombers until the big increase in numbers when the B-24s in 2/43.

P-38s are very limited, but I've used the older P-25, P-35, P-36 to get enough of the P-38s to fill out 2 x 25 FS groups (locations are classified [;)]).

You and Larry have been too aggressive in countering J3, IMO. You just don't have the airframes or pilot quality to be "Rocky" at this point in the game. I'm more of a 'hit and run' type Allied player for the first 6 months.

[LargeSlowTarget]

Not as sophisticated as JuanG's idea, but maybe worth sharing as stopgap measure: To give the Allies a bit more help and flexibility to swap planes between units remaining in theater and units scheduled to disband, I have added in my personal mod a modest ammount of trainer aircraft - AT-6/SNJ-3 Texan resp. Harvard as 'fighters' and PT-13/N2S Stearman resp. Kaydet as 'bombers' to the Allied plane pools. They can be used to free combat aircraft for re-deployment. Both planes are in DBB, so it is a simple copy&rename job in the editor and adjusting production/pool to your taste (and changing art file if it is important for you).

[EHansen]

Why did you fill out the 34th BG squadrons? They arrive with 5,5,4, and 5 aircraft.
You have them filled out to 13,8,8, and 8. That is 17 additional aircraft in squadrons
that are going to exit soon.

[moore4807]

NY59GIANTS:
"B-17s - Right now I have the 19th BG that started in Philippines over in India. 4 of them have B-17D and one with B-17E."

Michael - aren't they disbanded before 3/42? That's the reason most people withdraw them to get the PP's before Manila gets stomped as I understood it.

* BTW I'm reading your AAR every time I visit here, I was on late last night going over the January entries in our AAR, Just amazing everything happened like you guys told us it would...and we didn't listen. <self sarcasm implied here>

[moore4807]

I'm only posting about the B-17's - they are my main concern and its easier to stick to one topic.

[moore4807]

Now for the fun stuff...

[moore4807]

To answer EHansen's question - apparently nobody stopped the filling out of the squadrons. Neither Larry or I noticed they were dead until after the fact and now there are no more bombers that can take their place, ergo they will die with the squadrons.