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Easy to reproduce? - 3/1/2014 3:58:57 PM   
paulderynck


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This is a general request, directed at the community, not any poster in particular.

Saying "my bug is easy to reproduce" is not helpful. If you really want your bug looked at, then in its thread, please post a saved game with the action as close as possible to where your problem occurred. Keep in mind all the beta testers are volunteers with real lives to live, and from personal experience, if I load a game where I have to multi-click through four phases just to see what the bug looks like, I'm much more likely to spend time on something else.

A saved game is much more valuable than a screen shot IMO.

Also one outcome of the supply fix debacle is that we want to establish - in a more regimented way - a library of saved games with different bugs in them so we can test new versions for regression, unanticipated consequence, and collateral damage type bugs.

Thank you.


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RE: Easy to reproduce? - 3/1/2014 4:40:07 PM   
WarHunter


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+1
Thanks for laying out a template to use.
1st time users of this forum will find it very useful.
Old timers can use the reinforcement of what you need.

Might need to be a sticky? or a bump if it drops down to far?

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RE: Easy to reproduce? - 3/1/2014 5:01:33 PM   
joshuamnave

 

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I sympathize with you, I really do, but...

Beta testers are volunteers with real lives, who get advance information and updates ahead of the rest of us. I am just a paying customer who is frustrated that the product that I purchased does not work as advertised. I'll continue to post saved games when I can because I want it to get fixed, but when (the generic) you dismiss a bug report because I didn't voluntarily do the work that QA staff are typically paid for, all it does is increase the frustration level.

Matrix has my money and there is nothing I can do about that. What's my goodwill worth?

I appreciate all of the work the beta testers are doing voluntarily. Most of the bugs I've posted have been fixed or are being worked on, so I'm very aware that our input here matters. That's a +1. But it's a +1 from a baseline that's pretty deep in the negatives.

(in reply to WarHunter)
Post #: 3
RE: Easy to reproduce? - 3/1/2014 5:10:39 PM   
khucke

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zartacla

I sympathize with you, I really do, but...

Beta testers are volunteers with real lives, who get advance information and updates ahead of the rest of us. I am just a paying customer who is frustrated that the product that I purchased does not work as advertised. I'll continue to post saved games when I can because I want it to get fixed, but when (the generic) you dismiss a bug report because I didn't voluntarily do the work that QA staff are typically paid for, all it does is increase the frustration level.

Matrix has my money and there is nothing I can do about that. What's my goodwill worth?

I appreciate all of the work the beta testers are doing voluntarily. Most of the bugs I've posted have been fixed or are being worked on, so I'm very aware that our input here matters. That's a +1. But it's a +1 from a baseline that's pretty deep in the negatives.



I couldn't agree more!

(in reply to joshuamnave)
Post #: 4
RE: Easy to reproduce? - 3/1/2014 5:34:40 PM   
joshuamnave

 

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It's also worth pointing out that sometimes a saved game file isn't terribly useful. For example, Bermuda Triangle bugs - as soon as you load the save file, everything is back in supply again. The bug that has now been fixed with units in the breakdown pool at the start of the production phase is another example, where loading the save fixes the problem.

And here's another new one for you - for the second time since the last patch, at the end of the return to base phase for Japan (both times that it has happened to me it's been Japan, but that could be coincidence), the game breaks. Hit the end of phase button, and the cursor starts spinning to load the next phase, and it just keeps going for a few minutes until eventually the game crashes. But if I reload, everything works fine. So how useful is a save game file that isn't going to reproduce the bug anyway?

(in reply to khucke)
Post #: 5
RE: Easy to reproduce? - 3/1/2014 5:52:21 PM   
Centuur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zartacla

It's also worth pointing out that sometimes a saved game file isn't terribly useful. For example, Bermuda Triangle bugs - as soon as you load the save file, everything is back in supply again. The bug that has now been fixed with units in the breakdown pool at the start of the production phase is another example, where loading the save fixes the problem.

And here's another new one for you - for the second time since the last patch, at the end of the return to base phase for Japan (both times that it has happened to me it's been Japan, but that could be coincidence), the game breaks. Hit the end of phase button, and the cursor starts spinning to load the next phase, and it just keeps going for a few minutes until eventually the game crashes. But if I reload, everything works fine. So how useful is a save game file that isn't going to reproduce the bug anyway?


Sure, there are bugs which disappear when you restore a game and those bugs are more nastier once to fix.
But bugs which are clearly happening at certain situations, also after restoring a game, are the ones which are easier to find if the exact situation is there for the programmer to investigate.

It isn't easy to reproduce things exactly the same as for the one who reported the bug in question. What optional rules are on, what is the situation, where are the units localised, who is at war with whom and what are the circumstances? That's difficult if not impossible to recreate.

So I really would like to ask everyone here to zip a saved game and upload it in with your bug or question if you think there is a bug present.
And there is another thing which helps if you do so. MWIF isn't an easy game, so there are sometimes reports of bugs which aren't bugs at all. A saved game helps us to find out if it is really a bug or not. This saves valuable time (of which there isn't enough available at the moment).

Now, I share the frustrations, but please help us with this, because all bugs without a saved game, delay bug fixing. It's that simple. We don't say we won't process bugs without a saved game, we still will, but it makes life much more easier if a saved game is available so we can directly investigate and don't always have to guess and ask for more details.

Oh, and Zartacla, I ran into the same bug you are having in the switch of the stay at sea phase to the Return to base phase this afternoon. Strangely enough, it doesn't happen in all games, so I'm at a loss here too. Work around is to save the game just before pressing the "end of phase" button and restore it.

< Message edited by Centuur -- 3/1/2014 7:10:42 PM >


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RE: Easy to reproduce? - 3/1/2014 6:16:02 PM   
joshuamnave

 

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One thing that would make it a lot easier for the rest of us would be to relax the size limit for uploaded files on the forums. The current size limit is 8MB, and a saved game file is just a hair over 8MB's. Sure, it's not *that* hard to zip the file and then send it, but it's an extra step that happens at the exact moment when we're most frustrated. It would be one thing if the save files were 150% of the size limit but they aren't... Just increasing the size limit by 500Kb would be enough. Likewise, allowing multiple files to be attached to a single post would also decrease the amount of work that the non paid, non beta testers have to do.

Put another way, the easier it is to help you, the more help you're going to get. It works both directions.

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 7
RE: Easy to reproduce? - 3/1/2014 7:16:24 PM   
Centuur


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From: Hoorn (NED).
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zartacla

One thing that would make it a lot easier for the rest of us would be to relax the size limit for uploaded files on the forums. The current size limit is 8MB, and a saved game file is just a hair over 8MB's. Sure, it's not *that* hard to zip the file and then send it, but it's an extra step that happens at the exact moment when we're most frustrated. It would be one thing if the save files were 150% of the size limit but they aren't... Just increasing the size limit by 500Kb would be enough. Likewise, allowing multiple files to be attached to a single post would also decrease the amount of work that the non paid, non beta testers have to do.

Put another way, the easier it is to help you, the more help you're going to get. It works both directions.


These things, I'm afraid, are not our call...

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Post #: 8
RE: Easy to reproduce? - 3/1/2014 11:02:49 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 7715
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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zartacla

I sympathize with you, I really do, but...

Beta testers are volunteers with real lives, who get advance information and updates ahead of the rest of us. I am just a paying customer who is frustrated that the product that I purchased does not work as advertised. I'll continue to post saved games when I can because I want it to get fixed, but when (the generic) you dismiss a bug report because I didn't voluntarily do the work that QA staff are typically paid for, all it does is increase the frustration level.

Matrix has my money and there is nothing I can do about that. What's my goodwill worth?

I appreciate all of the work the beta testers are doing voluntarily. Most of the bugs I've posted have been fixed or are being worked on, so I'm very aware that our input here matters. That's a +1. But it's a +1 from a baseline that's pretty deep in the negatives.

I sympathize with you, I really do, but... no bugs are ignored, as tempting as that might be.

We get the updates so we can test them if there's time to do so, and there've been a few that went to Andrew before we could even crack them open. Advance info - I'm not sure, as illustrated by the foregoing sentence.

How happy have you been getting the updates at the same time as us, lately?

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 3/2/2014 12:06:42 AM >


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Post #: 9
RE: Easy to reproduce? - 3/3/2014 3:40:36 PM   
celebrindal


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Joined: 2/26/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zartacla

I sympathize with you, I really do, but...

Beta testers are volunteers with real lives, who get advance information and updates ahead of the rest of us. I am just a paying customer who is frustrated that the product that I purchased does not work as advertised. I'll continue to post saved games when I can because I want it to get fixed, but when (the generic) you dismiss a bug report because I didn't voluntarily do the work that QA staff are typically paid for, all it does is increase the frustration level.

Matrix has my money and there is nothing I can do about that. What's my goodwill worth?

I appreciate all of the work the beta testers are doing voluntarily. Most of the bugs I've posted have been fixed or are being worked on, so I'm very aware that our input here matters. That's a +1. But it's a +1 from a baseline that's pretty deep in the negatives.

I sympathize with you, I really do, but... no bugs are ignored, as tempting as that might be.

We get the updates so we can test them if there's time to do so, and there've been a few that went to Andrew before we could even crack them open. Advance info - I'm not sure, as illustrated by the foregoing sentence.

How happy have you been getting the updates at the same time as us, lately?

I've been informed that you are the keeper of the list Paul.. so with that being said I think for those of us that have been posting bugs and trying to help out however we can, having a list of outstanding items and where they are on the schedule to be looked at would go a long ways..

I've reported two bugs that are fatal errors, provided detailed steps on how to recreate, uploaded files.. all to be in limbo. We even restared our game because it looked like nothing was being done, only to encounter another non by passable bug that stopped us.

Now I worked with Axelnl on the last bug and he's been helping me with some stuff but our first one we still don't know what the scoop is. Even though it was reported nearly a month ago.

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Post #: 10
RE: Easy to reproduce? - 3/3/2014 6:03:30 PM   
Dabrion


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Yea "the list".. really.. do we live in the 1940's?

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Post #: 11
RE: Easy to reproduce? - 3/3/2014 6:57:30 PM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celebrindal

I've been informed that you are the keeper of the list Paul.. so with that being said I think for those of us that have been posting bugs and trying to help out however we can, having a list of outstanding items and where they are on the schedule to be looked at would go a long ways..

I've reported two bugs that are fatal errors, provided detailed steps on how to recreate, uploaded files.. all to be in limbo. We even restared our game because it looked like nothing was being done, only to encounter another non by passable bug that stopped us.

Now I worked with Axelnl on the last bug and he's been helping me with some stuff but our first one we still don't know what the scoop is. Even though it was reported nearly a month ago.

Yes I volunteered to keep a list of issues from the Tech Support forum, but recently returned from a two week vacation wherein I had limited access (or desire) to look at the forums everyday. So I'm presently in "catch-up mode".

I volunteered because I want this game to be a success.

But there are numerous "lists". There was a pre-existing one; there is also the one resulting from auto-emailed bug reports when there's a crash; and there's also one where Steve has pre-emptively found things himself. We beta testers don't see all the lists. It is Steve's decision as to what to work on and when to work on it.

So publishing my list will not be the all-inclusive panacea you are seeking, and the decision to do so is not mine alone.

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Paul

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Post #: 12
RE: Easy to reproduce? - 3/3/2014 9:37:25 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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I spend a lot of time keeping track of 'bug' reports. There are a lot of things reported as bugs that aren't.

Misunderstandings of the rules, misunderstanding of the player interface, and disagreements about both come up frequently. Throughout my work on this game, there have been continual discussions about rule interpretations. At various times over the years in the development forum there have been numerous threads about individual rules. And as I recall, Paul put together a single thread listing all the (at that time) issues about the rules. Rule discussions also appeared in the open forum (i.e., this forum).

So rules questions appear in some of my task lists, but they aren't technically bug reports.

Then there were (and are) discussions about how the player interface should work. Similar to rules discussions, these spanned many years and easily more than 100 separate threads. In the beginning I was very open to suggestions for how the player interface should work. In fact I aggressively solicited advice, alternatives, and engaged in dialogues about the pros and cons of different choices. Eventually a consensus appeared, or I simply cast my vote on how things would work. As in all decisions in life, when there are difficult choices to make, the alternatives not chosen never completely disappear, but come back off and on at times as "you should have ...". Now that the game has been released, these items are mostly gone from my task lists. But there are still a dozen or so of "it would be a good idea to some day ...".

Suggested improvements are more items on my task lists, but not bugs.

Duplicate reports on a bug are made all the time. This is not a bad thing, except in the sense it is terrible that many players are encountering the bug. A list of current bugs with 30 items might really only have 4. That fact is not obvious at a glance. Only after delving into all 30 can I determine the true number.

The vast majority (over 90%) of items on my task list fall under the heading "Investigate XYZ".

Once I can confirm that a bug exists, my natural tendency is to see if I can fix it immediately. Roughly half the time I can. Those that require more time and effort remain on my task list, grouped into loosely defined groups (e.g., NetPlay, supply, production planning, naval combat, etc.). I prefer to work on these more difficult problems in batches, because they require me to refamiliarize myself with the relevant code (typically tens of thousands of lines of object-oriented Pascal code).

So when people ask for a list of things to 'fix', it isn't as easy as just posting a bunch of text. Each item has its own little history: from whom, when, which version, about what, preconditions, manifestations, file references, references to posts in the forum, references to emails, possible causes, things investigated, what to do next, etc.

And all of this is in constant flux. Getting my various task lists organized simply so I can understand them takes me a lot of time. Putting them into shape so other people could make sense of them would double the amount of work needed. I use to do that for the beta testers a few times a month, but I had a lot more time available then. Since the game was released, the volume of my 'communications' has skyrocketed, albeit I am mostly on the receiving end.

Anything I posted as a list of "current bugs" would be more a historical curiosity than helpful. It would also be seriously out-of-date within 24 hours.

< Message edited by Shannon V. OKeets -- 3/3/2014 10:38:11 PM >


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RE: Easy to reproduce? - 6/1/2014 12:22:27 AM   
bighinvegas


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I have a game that is locked up. The situation is this: Jul/Aug 41, Axis #4. Axis collapsed Vichy in rail phase, everything works until the Italian tries to end the Air Transport phase. When the button is hit the game is locked up, the Main Form, New Games and Map boxes flash on and off and the only way out is to close the game in a phase that it can't be saved in.
I do not know how to find the saved game file. I opened the C drive, opened My Matrix games folder, opened the WIF folder and don"t know where/what I'm looking for to send in.
Anyone want to guide me (and you can't be too basic in your explanation for me) to the save game file and how to zip it and upload it in the forums?

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RE: Easy to reproduce? - 6/1/2014 12:46:26 AM   
Courtenay


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To find your saved game files, go to your World in Flames directory. Open "Scenarios". Open whichever scenario you are currently playing, probably "Global War". Open "Saved Games". The games you have saved personally are in that folder. If you want an autosave, open the "AutoSave" folder. This will give you the saved games in the autosave general category. If you want something from Autosave Axis or Autosave Allied, open the appropriate folder.

Once you get the folder, to upload it you have to compress it. Left-click, go to "Send to", and send the file to a compressed (zipped) folder. That folder can be uploaded to the group.

I hope that this is all the information you need.

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RE: Easy to reproduce? - 6/1/2014 2:00:47 PM   
bighinvegas


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Thank you. I will give it a try. I love the game but am bit frustrated at times with these bugs. I also understand that it has been a difficult task to keep stamping out these things.

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Post #: 16
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