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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/22/2018 7:15:09 PM   
rkr1958


Posts: 16783
Joined: 5/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

Answer: The three units are not allowed to become reorganized by Yamamoto because they are outside the HQs reorganization range.

The HQ's reorganization range is equal to its reorganization value in motorized movement points.

In this case the HQ has a reorganization value of 4. The units are only two hexes away but the first hex is mountain and costs 3, the second is forest and cost 2 more. Hence the HQ would need 5 in reorganization value, and range, to reorganize the three units.

Note that the range when reorganizing units are counted from the HQ to the units in question. And that units next to the HQI can always be reorganized if movement is allowed between the unit and the HQ.
Thanks!


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Ronnie

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 1051
RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/26/2018 7:44:22 AM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 1963
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
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I would agree, just I am not sure if in this case you'd have to count from the unit to the HQ the same that the HQ has to count from itself to the railroad to count the 4 motorized movement points.

The unit would be correctly OOS but the sum of the hexes' value would be 3 mountain + 3 mountain = 6 > 4

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 12/26/2018 7:46:28 AM >

(in reply to rkr1958)
Post #: 1052
RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/26/2018 11:44:04 AM   
Centuur


Posts: 8220
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

I would agree, just I am not sure if in this case you'd have to count from the unit to the HQ the same that the HQ has to count from itself to the railroad to count the 4 motorized movement points.

The unit would be correctly OOS but the sum of the hexes' value would be 3 mountain + 3 mountain = 6 > 4


RAW:

A face-up HQ can reorganise units within range of the HQ. The HQ's
reorganisation range is equal to its reorganisation value in motorized
movement points. The path from the HQ to the unit to be reorganised
is traced exactly like a basic supply path, except its maximum length
is determined by the HQ's reorganisation range, and it may not be
traced overseas. You may always trace 1 hex if the unit tracing supply
is not prohibited from entering that hex.


So you have to count from the HQ to the unit and that makes it a 5. Interesting is the fact that a MTN unit can be reorganised across a Alpine hexside or a MAR across a sea or lake hexside according to this rule if the HQ is adjacent to the hex the MTN or MAR is in...

< Message edited by Centuur -- 12/26/2018 11:47:00 AM >


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Peter

(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 1053
RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/26/2018 12:20:15 PM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 1963
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

I would agree, just I am not sure if in this case you'd have to count from the unit to the HQ the same that the HQ has to count from itself to the railroad to count the 4 motorized movement points.

The unit would be correctly OOS but the sum of the hexes' value would be 3 mountain + 3 mountain = 6 > 4


RAW:

A face-up HQ can reorganise units within range of the HQ. The HQ's
reorganisation range is equal to its reorganisation value in motorized
movement points. The path from the HQ to the unit to be reorganised
is traced exactly like a basic supply path,
except its maximum length
is determined by the HQ's reorganisation range, and it may not be
traced overseas. You may always trace 1 hex if the unit tracing supply
is not prohibited from entering that hex.


So you have to count from the HQ to the unit and that makes it a 5. Interesting is the fact that a MTN unit can be reorganised across a Alpine hexside or a MAR across a sea or lake hexside according to this rule if the HQ is adjacent to the hex the MTN or MAR is in...


Curious, we always interpreted this rule as "since you need to count from Secondary (HQ) to Primary", in the case of the unit you need to do "the same (system)", for us this meant count from the Unit to the Secondary following the same "logic". We always did it as I said. Here, it would seem that tracing the supply would be from the unit to primary or from the unit to secondary and from secondary to primary...

quote:

2.4.2 Tracing supply
To be in supply, a unit must be able to trace a supply path back to a primary supply source.
A primary supply source for a unit is:
Ô any friendly city in the unitís unconquered home country; or
Ô for a Commonwealth unit, any friendly city in another unconquered Commonwealth home country; or
Ô any friendly city in an unconquered home country of a major power the unit co-operates with (see 18.1).
Example: Germany has just declared war on Poland. Polish units that can trace a supply path to a friendly controlled city in Poland are in supply (because it is a friendly city in their home country). They are also in supply if they can trace to their controlling major powerís cities (because Poland co-operates with its controlling major power).
MiF option 6: An HQ is a primary supply source for the rest of the turn if you expend a face-up supply unit it is stacked with (see 22.4.10).
A city controlled by the communist Chinese is not friendly to the nationalist Chinese (and vice versa), even though both are (nominally) on the same side.

If the unit canít trace a supply path directly to a primary supply source, it can trace it via one or more secondary supply sources instead.

A secondary supply source for a unit is:
Ô an HQ the unit co-operates with (see 18.1); or
Ô the capital city of a minor country controlled by the unitís major power; or
Ô the capital city of a major power, or a minor country, conquered by the unitís major power, or by a major power the unit co-operates with.

A secondary supply source of the tracing unit must be able to trace a supply path either to a primary supply source or via another secondary supply source. That other secondary source must also be able to trace a supply path either to a primary source or via another secondary source, and so on.

There can be any number of secondary supply sources in this chain but it must end up at a primary supply source of the unit tracing the path.


And now that I look at it, what you quote is for restoring units, although it alludes the supply rule generally.

As for the 1 hex tracing, thanks again, I had been looking for this rule, it comes handy.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 12/26/2018 12:30:23 PM >

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 1054
RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/26/2018 4:50:37 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 7776
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From: Canada
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Well, re-org was counter-intuitive to supply, which is why it got changed between RAW7 and RAW8, so in the Collectors Edition, you do count to the HQ. But MWiF is RAW7 so the rules quote above applies.

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Paul

(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 1055
RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/28/2018 1:01:25 AM   
rkr1958


Posts: 16783
Joined: 5/21/2009
Status: online
Below are the US entry chit numbers and distributions by year. The table on the left side of figure below was "cut out" of the players manual vol 2, page 190. The excel tables on the right side from top to bottom are: (1) chit counts by year with total, average and sigma included, (2) cumulative chit counts by year, (3) chit probability by year and (4) cumulative chit probability by year.

Does the Nazi-Soviet Pact use the same chit numbers and distributions?

Also, I've figured out that MWiF "gives" the highest chit for each year an "extra" count. For example, in year 1941 there are a total of 920 chits. However, MWiF allows one to enter a number from 0 to 920, which is 921 values, or count. Through experimentation I've found that this extra count is "given" to the highest value chit available for that year.

Specifically, if one enters a value from:
0-2 (3 values) -> 0 chit
3-207 (205 values) -> 1 chit
208-453 (246 values) -> 2 chit
454-679 (226 values) -> 3 chit
680-869 (190 values) -> 4 chit
870-914 (45 values) -> 5 chit
915-920 (6 values instead of 5) -> 6 chit.

So technically MWiF does match exactly the chit distributions given in the player's manual. Is this worth posting in the tech forum or should I leave good enough alone?



FYI - I do understand that chits are "drawn" using the concept of "drawing with replacement". That is, a "chit" is never actually removed, so the numbers and distributions remain unchanged during a given year.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by rkr1958 -- 12/28/2018 1:04:55 AM >


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Ronnie

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 1056
RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 3/22/2019 3:10:26 AM   
rkr1958


Posts: 16783
Joined: 5/21/2009
Status: online
I'm manually enforcing the optional rule, "Isolated Reorganization Limits". Also, I'm playing with both limited overseas supply and limited supply across straits.

The situation in Sicily is that the allies have just captured Palermo, which is the only supply source on Sicily. Also, the Italians and have no CP's, no transports and no SCS's in the Italian Coast.

Assuming the Italians are unable to get supply in the Italian Coast (e.g., CP or TRS) by the end of the turn, would disorganized infantry units on Sicily be able to reorganize?

I know that oil consuming units can't because of the limited supply across straits. I was wondering if infantry units could given that I'm playing with that optional and with "Isolated Reorganization Limits".




Attachment (1)

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Ronnie

(in reply to rkr1958)
Post #: 1057
RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 3/22/2019 8:28:47 AM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 1963
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline
From RAW7:

quote:

Option 12: (limited access across straits) A unit canít trace supply across a straits hexside, if the presence of enemy units would prevent you tracing an overseas supply path into that sea area.


quote:

13.5 Final reorganisation step

Turn all face-down units face-up (including units that have stayed at sea and units that are out of supply).

Option 47: (Isolated reorganization) You can only turn a unit face-up if it can trace a path to a primary supply source for that unit. You trace the path in the same way as a basic supply path, including via overseas supply paths (see 2.4.2) except that it can be of any length.

13.5.1 Oil (AfA option 48)

If you are playing with this option, you only automatically turn units face-up during the final reorganization step if they are not oil dependent. To flip oil dependent units, you must spend oil resources.
Oil dependent units are shown on the Unit costs chart (see 28).

You can only use your own oil to flip your units face-up. Even oil controlled by co-operating major powers canít help. However, communist and nationalist Chinese can use each otherís oil.

You do not have to transport the oil anywhere. But you must be able to trace a path from the unit to the oil resource. This path is exactly like a basic supply path (including via overseas) (see 2.4.2) except that it can be of any length
[...]


IMO you cannot trace a path of any kind, as per option 12 if the enemy controls the sea, which is the case. As you can see afterwards you'd need to trace a basic supply path (of any length), which is impossible because of option 12. For oil and n non-oil units.

(in reply to rkr1958)
Post #: 1058
RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 3/22/2019 5:16:14 PM   
rkr1958


Posts: 16783
Joined: 5/21/2009
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

From RAW7:

quote:

Option 12: (limited access across straits) A unit canít trace supply across a straits hexside, if the presence of enemy units would prevent you tracing an overseas supply path into that sea area.


quote:

13.5 Final reorganisation step

Turn all face-down units face-up (including units that have stayed at sea and units that are out of supply).

Option 47: (Isolated reorganization) You can only turn a unit face-up if it can trace a path to a primary supply source for that unit. You trace the path in the same way as a basic supply path, including via overseas supply paths (see 2.4.2) except that it can be of any length.

13.5.1 Oil (AfA option 48)

If you are playing with this option, you only automatically turn units face-up during the final reorganization step if they are not oil dependent. To flip oil dependent units, you must spend oil resources.
Oil dependent units are shown on the Unit costs chart (see 28).

You can only use your own oil to flip your units face-up. Even oil controlled by co-operating major powers canít help. However, communist and nationalist Chinese can use each otherís oil.

You do not have to transport the oil anywhere. But you must be able to trace a path from the unit to the oil resource. This path is exactly like a basic supply path (including via overseas) (see 2.4.2) except that it can be of any length
[...]


IMO you cannot trace a path of any kind, as per option 12 if the enemy controls the sea, which is the case. As you can see afterwards you'd need to trace a basic supply path (of any length), which is impossible because of option 12. For oil and n non-oil units.

Jose, thanks! So if I understand correctly it's the limited supply across straights that would prevent the infantry from reorganizing. Do the allies need sole control of the Italian Coast to prevent the infantry from reorganizing? For example, if the Italians put a plane or ship in the Italian Coast would that be enough from them to reorg or would it have to be a CP or transport since I'm playing with limited overseas supply too?

_____________________________

Ronnie

(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 1059
RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 3/22/2019 5:32:46 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 8220
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rkr1958


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

From RAW7:

quote:

Option 12: (limited access across straits) A unit canít trace supply across a straits hexside, if the presence of enemy units would prevent you tracing an overseas supply path into that sea area.


quote:

13.5 Final reorganisation step

Turn all face-down units face-up (including units that have stayed at sea and units that are out of supply).

Option 47: (Isolated reorganization) You can only turn a unit face-up if it can trace a path to a primary supply source for that unit. You trace the path in the same way as a basic supply path, including via overseas supply paths (see 2.4.2) except that it can be of any length.

13.5.1 Oil (AfA option 48)

If you are playing with this option, you only automatically turn units face-up during the final reorganization step if they are not oil dependent. To flip oil dependent units, you must spend oil resources.
Oil dependent units are shown on the Unit costs chart (see 28).

You can only use your own oil to flip your units face-up. Even oil controlled by co-operating major powers canít help. However, communist and nationalist Chinese can use each otherís oil.

You do not have to transport the oil anywhere. But you must be able to trace a path from the unit to the oil resource. This path is exactly like a basic supply path (including via overseas) (see 2.4.2) except that it can be of any length
[...]


IMO you cannot trace a path of any kind, as per option 12 if the enemy controls the sea, which is the case. As you can see afterwards you'd need to trace a basic supply path (of any length), which is impossible because of option 12. For oil and n non-oil units.

Jose, thanks! So if I understand correctly it's the limited supply across straights that would prevent the infantry from reorganizing. Do the allies need sole control of the Italian Coast to prevent the infantry from reorganizing? For example, if the Italians put a plane or ship in the Italian Coast would that be enough from them to reorg or would it have to be a CP or transport since I'm playing with limited overseas supply too?


The Italians need an CP or TRS to restore supply to Sicily.

_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to rkr1958)
Post #: 1060
RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 3/22/2019 7:29:04 PM   
rkr1958


Posts: 16783
Joined: 5/21/2009
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur


quote:

ORIGINAL: rkr1958


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

From RAW7:

quote:

Option 12: (limited access across straits) A unit canít trace supply across a straits hexside, if the presence of enemy units would prevent you tracing an overseas supply path into that sea area.


quote:

13.5 Final reorganisation step

Turn all face-down units face-up (including units that have stayed at sea and units that are out of supply).

Option 47: (Isolated reorganization) You can only turn a unit face-up if it can trace a path to a primary supply source for that unit. You trace the path in the same way as a basic supply path, including via overseas supply paths (see 2.4.2) except that it can be of any length.

13.5.1 Oil (AfA option 48)

If you are playing with this option, you only automatically turn units face-up during the final reorganization step if they are not oil dependent. To flip oil dependent units, you must spend oil resources.
Oil dependent units are shown on the Unit costs chart (see 28).

You can only use your own oil to flip your units face-up. Even oil controlled by co-operating major powers canít help. However, communist and nationalist Chinese can use each otherís oil.

You do not have to transport the oil anywhere. But you must be able to trace a path from the unit to the oil resource. This path is exactly like a basic supply path (including via overseas) (see 2.4.2) except that it can be of any length
[...]


IMO you cannot trace a path of any kind, as per option 12 if the enemy controls the sea, which is the case. As you can see afterwards you'd need to trace a basic supply path (of any length), which is impossible because of option 12. For oil and n non-oil units.

Jose, thanks! So if I understand correctly it's the limited supply across straights that would prevent the infantry from reorganizing. Do the allies need sole control of the Italian Coast to prevent the infantry from reorganizing? For example, if the Italians put a plane or ship in the Italian Coast would that be enough from them to reorg or would it have to be a CP or transport since I'm playing with limited overseas supply too?


The Italians need an CP or TRS to restore supply to Sicily.
Thanks!


_____________________________

Ronnie

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 1061
RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 3/25/2019 9:27:52 AM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 1963
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline
Centuur addressed it. I am sorry to be late.

You could have restored the supply line with a (surface) ship but not with a plane unless it has a sea factor, if you hadn't been playing with "limited overseas supply".

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 3/25/2019 9:29:08 AM >

(in reply to rkr1958)
Post #: 1062
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