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RE: Is those supposed to happen? - 2/25/2014 7:33:17 PM   
hades1001

 

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I do it not because I like it or I think it's realistic,

I do it because I have to, otherwise I don't an option to protect my fleet.

As you can see even 2500 cap won't provide full protection.

What are you going to do then? Spread the fleet in a few hexes (more realistic) and let them get slaughtered by the Japanese?

I don't think so.

So, for you sir, you are apparently lack of 1945 game experience and have no idea what a hell Allies may face in the game.

You can play realistic and be my guest, you won't last long in the game anyway.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Ask anyone who has ever conned a carrier doing flight ops how they felt about having a second large ship within miles of them. Here the OP has dozens and dozens of carriers doing flight ops in a 40-mile hex. Plus at least (?) a thousand smaller combatants. Lunacy. Forget the air models. This is demolition derby time.


This gave me a visual of synchronized flight ops with 2 dozen carriers, sorta like movies in the 50’s. “Now we see all these carrier pivot cleanly on their sterns to course 170 true…of wait, the Franklin seems to have stumbled a bit. Oh that IS bad luck, I hope the Nassau can get out of the way in time! Oh, bad show, the Franklin seems to be back on course, but the Nassau seems to have vanished”


Ask the USS Evans.

Two-dozen would be generous for the moves this guy tried. 95% of the entire USN in 40-miles. Picture that famous photo of Ulithi Atoll fleet anchorage in the late war. Now add hundreds more ships. Now make them all move at once.


(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 91
RE: Is those supposed to happen? - 2/25/2014 7:38:29 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001

I do it not because I like it or I think it's realistic,

I do it because I have to, otherwise I don't an option to protect my fleet.

As you can see even 2500 cap won't provide full protection.

What are you going to do then? Spread the fleet in a few hexes (more realistic) and let them get slaughtered by the Japanese?

I don't think so.

So, for you sir, you are apparently lack of 1945 game experience and have no idea what a hell Allies may face in the game.

You can play realistic and be my guest, you won't last long in the game anyway.



I've played three full GCs as Allies against the AI, one to the spring of 1946. I'm in two PBEM games; only one is AARed. I started playing WITP in 2005.

If you believe this was your ONLY option, as you've said multiple times, you don't have nearly enough experience with the game to have an opinion on my skill set. You've been told by many people with even more experience than me that you're wrong. Most importantly, you've been told by a developer who is still in active support of the game that what you did will break the engine, won't produce the results you believe you're entitled to. Won't. Do. It.

Keep flogging the dolphin here if you like, but you screwed up. Learn and move on.


< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 2/25/2014 8:40:24 PM >


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Post #: 92
RE: Is those supposed to happen? - 2/25/2014 7:39:05 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 3894
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From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001

So you will spread your fleet in several hex when knowing there is a 1300AC KB coming?

Very wise.


quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget


quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001

95% of Allies CV/CVL/CVL/BB/CA and DDs are in this hex [...] together with a couple hundred of transports.

This is not a abuse of engine but a must move in the game.



95% of Allied combat ships in the same hex is no abuse of engine?

Well, with so many ships in one hex there is probably no sea room left for evasive maneuvers to avoid incoming torps. The Japanese can just drop them without aiming - they will surely hit something in the wall of ships in front of them...




If I know that late in the game there still is a Mega-KB with teeth out there, I would a) consider the possibility that I may have done something wrong since 1943, b) go KB-hunting before sending transports in harm's way, c) not bring any Combustible-Vulnerable-Expendable types along until the fleet-type CVs have pulled KBs' teeth, and d) maybe decide to play it save, change strategy and advance under cover of LBA

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Post #: 93
RE: Is those supposed to happen? - 2/25/2014 7:42:45 PM   
hades1001

 

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LOL play against AI till spring 46...

I'll just shut up, no point arguing with you.

BTW would you mind point out who's the active developer that point out what I do break the engine? I may missed that thread and want to read his comments again. Thanks.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001

I do it not because I like it or I think it's realistic,

I do it because I have to, otherwise I don't an option to protect my fleet.

As you can see even 2500 cap won't provide full protection.

What are you going to do then? Spread the fleet in a few hexes (more realistic) and let them get slaughtered by the Japanese?

I don't think so.

So, for you sir, you are apparently lack of 1945 game experience and have no idea what a hell Allies may face in the game.

You can play realistic and be my guest, you won't last long in the game anyway.



I've played three full GCs as Allies against the AI, one to the spring of 1946. I'm in two PBEM games; only one is AARed. I started playing WITP in 2005.

If you believe this was your ONLY option, as you've said multiple times, you don't have nearly enough experience with the game to have an opinion on my skill set. You've been told by many people with even more experience than me that you're wrong. Most importantly, you've been told by a developer who is still in active support of the game, that what you did will break the engine, won't produce the results you believe you're entitled to. Won't. Do. It.

Keep flogging the dolphin here if you like, but you screwed up. Learn and move on.



(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 94
RE: Is those supposed to happen? - 2/25/2014 7:49:39 PM   
LoBaron


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From: Vienna, Austria
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Bullwinkle, Alfred, witpqs, John, and alot of other players who had posted in this thread each forgot a lot more on this game than you will ever learn.

And I do not even need to exaggerate.

I am done with this stubborn display of incompetence...bye.





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Post #: 95
RE: Is those supposed to happen? - 2/25/2014 7:50:08 PM   
hades1001

 

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Considering what you have done wrong in 43 won't help the game in 45.

But other suggestions are quite practical. Allies can advance with support of LBA, I have followed the idea for years. But do you realize that at a certain point of time, Allies have to take risk and push forward with limited LBA support?

At least that's the situation I'm facing.



quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget


quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001

So you will spread your fleet in several hex when knowing there is a 1300AC KB coming?

Very wise.


quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget


quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001

95% of Allies CV/CVL/CVL/BB/CA and DDs are in this hex [...] together with a couple hundred of transports.

This is not a abuse of engine but a must move in the game.



95% of Allied combat ships in the same hex is no abuse of engine?

Well, with so many ships in one hex there is probably no sea room left for evasive maneuvers to avoid incoming torps. The Japanese can just drop them without aiming - they will surely hit something in the wall of ships in front of them...




If I know that late in the game there still is a Mega-KB with teeth out there, I would a) consider the possibility that I may have done something wrong since 1943, b) go KB-hunting before sending transports in harm's way, c) not bring any Combustible-Vulnerable-Expendable types along until the fleet-type CVs have pulled KBs' teeth, and d) maybe decide to play it save, change strategy and advance under cover of LBA


(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
Post #: 96
RE: Is those supposed to happen? - 2/25/2014 7:53:14 PM   
USSAmerica


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From: Chapel Hill, NC, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001

LOL play against AI till spring 46...

I'll just shut up, no point arguing with you.

BTW would you mind point out who's the active developer that point out what I do break the engine? I may missed that thread and want to read his comments again. Thanks.






This thread. Post #36. No longer an "active developer", as there are no longer any true "active developers", but one of the lead developers for AE. You're welcome.

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(in reply to hades1001)
Post #: 97
RE: Is those supposed to happen? - 2/25/2014 7:53:27 PM   
hades1001

 

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edited

< Message edited by hades1001 -- 2/25/2014 9:10:35 PM >

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 98
RE: Is those supposed to happen? - 2/25/2014 7:53:30 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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Joined: 2/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001

BTW would you mind point out who's the active developer that point out what I do break the engine? I may missed that thread and want to read his comments again. Thanks.




Symon is JWE. Look him up in the game credits.

Or look here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2173764&mpage=1&key=Team

"JWE

John was in the US Army Artillery overlapping with the years I was in this branch. John then moved on the NSA and currently he is a patent attorney in So Cal.

John has had so many jobs on the team, that I doubt I can remember them all. I think he was originally brought in to be our Amphibous Warfare guy. His work with the Marines has led to development of a comprehensive and consistent rework of the land devices - so many if not all of the AE land devices are derivations of John's work.

John also brought us our "ship art team" consisting of Brian (BigB), Kelley (TomLabel) and himself. These guys have churned out hundreds of new ships for AE.

And then John took over the Naval Team Lead job for about the last year of the project. In this role he worked with Don to define and refine the specs for loading, unload, rearming, damage and repair. In his "spare time" he also single handedly did the full OOB for auxiliaries and merchant ships for all the nations. Those of us who did the combat ships think we did a lot of work - we can hardly imagine the effort John took to do all the merchant ships - and they are not "generics" like in stock - they are individualized - whew!

John is also an excellent tester. When we start seeing some odd results in some of the combat routines, John set up a very organized and methodical testing process to compare stock, to AE, before and after iterative changes were made. This process enabled us to correct and stablize some very tricky code, quickly.

There is simply no way we could have built AE as well as we did without all these various contributions from John - I know the rest of the team joins me in thanking John for the professionalism of his efforts."
----------------------------------------------------------------


You're welcome.




< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 2/25/2014 8:55:18 PM >


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Post #: 99
RE: Is those supposed to happen? - 2/25/2014 7:54:14 PM   
hades1001

 

Posts: 977
Joined: 12/17/2007
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Thank you sir, let me take a look.

quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America


quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001

LOL play against AI till spring 46...

I'll just shut up, no point arguing with you.

BTW would you mind point out who's the active developer that point out what I do break the engine? I may missed that thread and want to read his comments again. Thanks.






This thread. Post #36. No longer an "active developer", as there are no longer any true "active developers", but one of the lead developers for AE. You're welcome.


(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 100
RE: Is those supposed to happen? - 2/25/2014 8:00:39 PM   
obvert


Posts: 12737
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
The fact that the game handles many things that are beyond 'realistic' does not mean that it can handle everything that is beyond realistic. The fact that players do such things, even do them frequently, does not change that.


Thats probably the central point here.

And no, obvert, I don´t think that a single experienced player here would amass "95% of the USN in a single hex" in a potential combat environment, at least not without being absolutely aware of the consequences.

PS: Just a hint: arguing with CT when he gets all emotional isn´t worth it. He will only read 50% of your posts content, decide which part of the remaining 50% is the more irritating to him, and then get even more emotional on those 25% while completely missing the target (or failing to understand that what he gets emotional about has been already discussed ages ago).



Ha! yeah, I see!

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Post #: 101
RE: Is those supposed to happen? - 2/25/2014 8:02:15 PM   
hades1001

 

Posts: 977
Joined: 12/17/2007
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hmmm,

If I know he is the lead developer the whole argument probably should end at post #36 already.

quote:

Won’t (can’t) say how, what, when, where, or why, but will testify that it IS. Out of scale “stacks” will give out of scale results. Period.


This answered my question in the title: This is supposed to happen and I will have to find a way to deal with it.

(in reply to hades1001)
Post #: 102
RE: Is those supposed to happen? - 2/25/2014 8:18:07 PM   
obvert


Posts: 12737
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Why would you be surprised? The point is that it is way outside of the design parameters, and this example has specifically been commented on to that effect by one developer, while in general such has been commented on to that effect by numerous developers in the past. They do not mean for the engine to support that many ships operating in one hex, and the first thing that breaks is the air model when that many carriers operate in one hex. They have said repeatedly "Don't do that!" and when someone does that, it hurts, and you are surprised that we point that out about the game? The game is not designed/coded to handle, and it doesn't handle it. They revealed that a long time ago and have repeated it a number of times.

If someone says "Hey developers, please change that." I would understand that whether I agreed with it or not. But when someone doggedly refuses to believe the developers' notice about it, I do not understand. The fact that the game handles many things that are beyond 'realistic' does not mean that it can handle everything that is beyond realistic. The fact that players do such things, even do them frequently, does not change that.


No, you're missing me a bit here. I certainly am not advocating this kind of play, I'm just saying he's not the only one doing it. I totally get what you guys are saying here about the number of ships, but ...

A) It's not really 95% of the US fleet, because that would be close to impossible to do in any real PBEM game where some are damaged, some protecting convoys, some transiting and some in other theatres. Trusting that the OP is honest about this being a PBEM game result the ship number is surely an exaggeration.

B) Based on this combat result I've seen quite a few like this in any game that goes late. So few do go late that I think we tend to forget this is not abnormal behavior for the late game Allied player, whether or not it 'should' be based on the game capabilities.

C) The game continues to surprise me. Extreme results happen with extreme concentrations for sure, but the balancing is often still there, and with continued improvements including the beta and DBB mods, these effects are minimized somewhat. With the reduction in capabilities of LBA naval strikes though, we may see more players going against their better judgement and putting a lot of CV/CVE into big piles late in game.


_____________________________


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Post #: 103
RE: Is those supposed to happen? - 2/26/2014 2:34:32 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
The fact that the game handles many things that are beyond 'realistic' does not mean that it can handle everything that is beyond realistic. The fact that players do such things, even do them frequently, does not change that.


Thats probably the central point here.

And no, obvert, I don´t think that a single experienced player here would amass "95% of the USN in a single hex" in a potential combat environment, at least not without being absolutely aware of the consequences.

PS: Just a hint: arguing with CT when he gets all emotional isn´t worth it. He will only read 50% of your posts content, decide which part of the remaining 50% is the more irritating to him, and then get even more emotional on those 25% while completely missing the target (or failing to understand that what he gets emotional about has been already discussed ages ago).




Ha! yeah, I see!



yes and while being discussed ages ago, there are still one or two ppl on the forum still trying to bring up their woodoo that has never worked and will never work... and that's the point

so trying to lure new players or non experienced players into something that has never been proven but rather the opposite, coming from ppl that never even reached any later stages (that's not a bad thing) is exactly
what is making me emotional as it's just kind of dumb after all these years

but fine with me, let the "change some altitude and you're fine" party keep this going as you don't have to listen to any of the guys involved in the develop of this game let alone listening to some idiotic emotional
smartass that probably has put more hours into testing woodoo explanations than most WITP/AE players have put into playing the game



< Message edited by castor troy -- 2/26/2014 3:39:40 PM >


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