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Complex Attacks No More? - 2/17/2014 6:32:17 PM   
SeinfeldRules

 

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Hi,

I'm having an issue with Regiments/Brigades planning and executing complex coordinated attacks. The way it used to be was that you would issue an attack order to a higher HQ with multiple BN HQs under it, and it would move to the FUP, re-organize, give attack orders to each BN HQ, and the attack would go in with each BN executing it's own organic attack. Right now it doesn't seem to get that all right. Right now each BN HQ will move to the FUP separately and re-organize, however once the Regiment HQ has arrived, all the line units will stop in place, "reshuffle", and task organize themselves under other line companies from other battalions. This results in a mix of infantry companies that have very little sense of organization to them and is not very historical.

I believe I know where this is coming from - since HQs are no longer assigned to attacks, I'm thinking that the higher HQ is taking the line companies and making them HQs for the attack - not a problem if the line companies maintained some semblance of organic organization, but they don't. You could have companies from 3 different battalions in a task organized group. Not very realistic and the reshuffle the units go through just adds more time. Maybe this is working as designed, or I've just forgotten how it used to work?

I've attached a save(uses Screaming Eagles Over Hells Highway scenario) with the orders I've given to two regiments, if you just time accelerate you'll see how the attack develops.

Edit: You can also see how units under an HQ immediately stop when their HQ reaches the order location - not sure if this is a bug or not, but can be annoying at times.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by SeinfeldRules -- 2/17/2014 8:15:48 PM >
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RE: Complex Attacks No More? - 2/17/2014 7:57:29 PM   
dazkaz15


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I think there are 2 problems with what you are seeing.
The first is that by placing an FUP on the map that was a short, but still a reasonable distance from the Regiments current location, the whole regiment first executed a move order to get to the FUP.
So you end up with the whole Regiment moving in a tactical column formation one behind the other.
The pause you see is when the move order turns into an attack order when the Bn HQ's reach their assigned FUP locations.
This use to be a bug with a very long pause, (a double orders delay), but is now just a short pause, but still noticeable.

The reason the Regimental HQ has mixed up the Bn formations slightly is to include the Engineer Coy into the Assault.
In the play through I watched it put it on the left flank, with another 2 Coy's.
The extra Coy from that Bn was used to reinforce the main effort in the centre which was given an extra infantry Coy.
The Bn given responsibility for the right flank was left unaltered.

The formation looked good to me, but I do agree that the very long dance to form up for these Regimental attacks is very annoying.
That's why myself and others prefer the flexibility or Bn ones.
But even these have a habit of doing a funny dance at the beginning, where the 2 flank Coy's almost always, inexplicably, change sides before an assault, for no apparent reason, wasting time, and often crossing over each other, presenting a lovely concentrated bombardment target for enemy arty.

Don't even get me started on what happens once the assault is over, and they are ordered into the all round defence position on the objective by the AI, which is one of my pet hates in game

Have you tried some different formations, or leaving everything to the AI including the location of the FUP to see what happens?

< Message edited by dazkaz15 -- 2/17/2014 8:59:28 PM >

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RE: Complex Attacks No More? - 2/17/2014 8:29:52 PM   
dazkaz15


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I just played it through again after deleting the FUP you placed.
It was much faster, with much better results, although one of the flank Bn's went a bit to far towards the enemy lines in order to get a flanking attack than I would have liked.

Its actually very interesting watching these large assaults, that the AI can perform, and apart from all the unnecessary dancing around before hand, and after, I think it does a pretty good job.

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RE: Complex Attacks No More? - 2/18/2014 3:29:50 AM   
SeinfeldRules

 

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dazkaz,

I tried some of what you suggested and didn't really see an "improvement". I focused on the 502PIR, removed the engineer from the regiment and gave changed the formation to line. If you switch the force view to Op Plan, you'll see that once the regiment is formed up for the final assault, a company from each BN is task organized to form 3 separate groups, with A/1-502, B/1-502 and C/1-502 each leading one, and the rest of the companies interspersed. They seems unrealistic for regiment with no attached elements and completely organic. I would expect A,B,C to be part of one group, D,E,F in another, etc. Instead it seemed they got tasked out randomly to form the groups. You also don't see some of the desired behavior outline in the manual for complex attacks:

"If the attack is in line, often one subHQ will be tasked to exploit past the objective location; if there are three or more subHQs in the attack, then this will always happen."

The attack meets that criteria but it isn't happening.

I've attached two more saves. Example 3 is just after the attack launched. You can see the task organization for the regiment if you switch the structure to Current Op Plan. The attack goes in just fine, but it seems to me that it's lacking some realism and sense. In an attack like this it seems there is no reason for the battalions not to remain mostly organic, minus a few attachments here and there.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to SeinfeldRules)
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RE: Complex Attacks No More? - 2/18/2014 1:59:08 PM   
dazkaz15


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I see what you mean mate.
This could explain a lot to the messing about before a regimental attack in fact.

What is happening is all the line units are being grouped into one pool by the AI then it is allocating the most senior Coy's to become hubs for the assault, which is A,B,C Coy.
What I think it should be doing is allocating the most senior unit of the individual Bn's to be the hubs, which would be, A, D and G coy.

This would stop a lot of the "dancing" around when forming up because you won't have Coy's trying to move right across the front of the formation to try to get to the other side.
They would form up from their Bn locations instead.
Also after the assault they wont then have to mover right across the other side of the formation to re-join their organic Bn.

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RE: Complex Attacks No More? - 2/18/2014 4:20:39 PM   
jimcarravall

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeinfeldRules

dazkaz,

I tried some of what you suggested and didn't really see an "improvement". I focused on the 502PIR, removed the engineer from the regiment and gave changed the formation to line. If you switch the force view to Op Plan, you'll see that once the regiment is formed up for the final assault, a company from each BN is task organized to form 3 separate groups, with A/1-502, B/1-502 and C/1-502 each leading one, and the rest of the companies interspersed. They seems unrealistic for regiment with no attached elements and completely organic. I would expect A,B,C to be part of one group, D,E,F in another, etc. Instead it seemed they got tasked out randomly to form the groups. You also don't see some of the desired behavior outline in the manual for complex attacks:

"If the attack is in line, often one subHQ will be tasked to exploit past the objective location; if there are three or more subHQs in the attack, then this will always happen."

The attack meets that criteria but it isn't happening.

I've attached two more saves. Example 3 is just after the attack launched. You can see the task organization for the regiment if you switch the structure to Current Op Plan. The attack goes in just fine, but it seems to me that it's lacking some realism and sense. In an attack like this it seems there is no reason for the battalions not to remain mostly organic, minus a few attachments here and there.


Have you checked the relative command strengths of all companies assigned to the attack?

If the companies selected to lead separate groups are those in the regiment with the highest command strength when compared to he remaining companies, it's conceivable they could be assigned field command leadership roles in the attack even if the units under their command aren't part of their original organic battalion formation and no battalion HQs are allowed to participate in leading the attack.



_____________________________

Take care,

jim

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RE: Complex Attacks No More? - 2/18/2014 4:38:22 PM   
dazkaz15


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That's an interesting point Jim, Ill take a look later.

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RE: Complex Attacks No More? - 2/18/2014 4:52:29 PM   
dazkaz15


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No.
There is no correlation there, as you have D Coy with a leadership of 81, subordinated to B Coy with a leadership of 72.
They are both lead by leaders with the rank of Major.

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RE: Complex Attacks No More? - 2/18/2014 7:39:22 PM   
Arjuna


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There are a myriad of factors taken to determine the suitability of all units against all tasks. It's quite complex. Can it do with a tweak? Yes but so can all the AI. I am not going to address this for Cmd Ops 1 but will put it on the list for Cmd Ops 2.

_____________________________

Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com

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RE: Complex Attacks No More? - 2/18/2014 8:44:46 PM   
dazkaz15


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Totally agree.
Thanks for the reply Dave

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RE: Complex Attacks No More? - 2/19/2014 6:29:05 AM   
dazkaz15


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In the mean time if you are finding this a real irritation, attack with individual Bn's at the same time.
I think this allows for far more flexibility anyway, and is unlikely to overload the on map boss by enough to make it a problem, especially if you re-attach to Regiment after the attack.
This is what most of the rest of us do anyway, from reading other posts.

< Message edited by dazkaz15 -- 2/19/2014 7:29:40 AM >

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