AV's and land based planes

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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slane_slith
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AV's and land based planes

Post by slane_slith »

I’m sure this has been covered but my searching hasn’t found anything.

I need to assign some land based fighters to some far-flung islands but don’t want to waste the time hauling a bunch of base forces out into the middle of nowhere. Will AV’s, AVD’s and the like count as aviation support for land based aircraft or do I need to send the BF’s along for the ride?

Thanks ahead
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LoBaron
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RE: AV's and land based planes

Post by LoBaron »

You will need land based AS, tenders only work for planes with floats.
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dr.hal
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RE: AV's and land based planes

Post by dr.hal »

LoBaron is right... unfortunately... But I've never understood the rationale for this, can someone step in here? Is it based upon type of plane, parts for one will not fit another, etc? Because a mechanic would be able to work on various "types" with floats or without..... thoughts?
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RE: AV's and land based planes

Post by slane_slith »

I figured. You can never have your cake and eat it too with this game...

Thanks!!
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jeffk3510
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RE: AV's and land based planes

Post by jeffk3510 »

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

LoBaron is right... unfortunately... But I've never understood the rationale for this, can someone step in here? Is it based upon type of plane, parts for one will not fit another, etc? Because a mechanic would be able to work on various "types" with floats or without..... thoughts?

You're correct about a mechanic's capabilities, but I don't think that is the reason.

If I have a land based AC, I will roll it into a hangar to fix it, not dockside to an auxiliary ship... and vice versa. I won't roll a float plane into a
hangar if I can keep it in the harbor and pull up next to a ship...

AV/AVP/AVDs are specifically designed ships for maintaining float planes... whether they're patrol, bomber, or fighter doesn't matter.

These ships have cranes and facilities on the ships to lift float planes on and fix them right then and there, and don't require land bases facilities.

I am SURE they were used in major bases as well, but that is why they work in remote areas without the major base facilities. They have everything they need on the ship.

Much like an AS is for subs...

A good example is a mobile slaughter unit. Everything you need right there without sending it to the packing plant. Guys make a very good living with these btw.




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Lokasenna
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RE: AV's and land based planes

Post by Lokasenna »

Not to mention some planes required there to be a port as they didn't have any wheels! I don't think that's modeled all that well in the game, but I could be wrong. I do know that some of the PBY models and the Australian S-23, for example, aren't able to pick up troops from a hex without a coastline (the game gives you a message, even), but I don't think there's anything preventing you from basing those PBYs and S-23s at a landlocked base with no water... Never tried, though.
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RE: AV's and land based planes

Post by dr.hal »

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Not to mention some planes required there to be a port as they didn't have any wheels! I don't think that's modeled all that well in the game, but I could be wrong. I do know that some of the PBY models and the Australian S-23, for example, aren't able to pick up troops from a hex without a coastline (the game gives you a message, even), but I don't think there's anything preventing you from basing those PBYs and S-23s at a landlocked base with no water... Never tried, though.
The game engine will not allow you to place float plane (patrol or otherwise) in a non water hex. I've tried. You can't even ship supplies, etc, by such craft to non water hexes. But to some extent you are proving my point in that Amphibious aircraft (those that can do water AND land as they have wheels) are able to be wheeled out and worked on, thus they should be covered by the land based aviation support points... and they are not IIRC.
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RE: AV's and land based planes

Post by LoBaron »

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Not to mention some planes required there to be a port as they didn't have any wheels! I don't think that's modeled all that well in the game, but I could be wrong. I do know that some of the PBY models and the Australian S-23, for example, aren't able to pick up troops from a hex without a coastline (the game gives you a message, even), but I don't think there's anything preventing you from basing those PBYs and S-23s at a landlocked base with no water... Never tried, though.
The game engine will not allow you to place float plane (patrol or otherwise) in a non water hex. I've tried. You can't even ship supplies, etc, by such craft to non water hexes. But to some extent you are proving my point in that Amphibious aircraft (those that can do water AND land as they have wheels) are able to be wheeled out and worked on, thus they should be covered by the land based aviation support points... and they are not IIRC.

Actually this is very well modelled in the game.

An example is the PBY-5 and its amphib version, the PBY-5A. Both can be supported by AV tenders, but only the 5A is able to land at inland bases while the PBY-5 is restricted to ports.
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czert2
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RE: AV's and land based planes

Post by czert2 »

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

LoBaron is right... unfortunately... But I've never understood the rationale for this, can someone step in here? Is it based upon type of plane, parts for one will not fit another, etc? Because a mechanic would be able to work on various "types" with floats or without..... thoughts?
well, how do you bring ship to land or force land based plane to float at water ? well technicaly it is posible to dimabtle all suport equpment from ship and move it to land...but at thjis point that ship will lose ability to become planes suúport ship, adn well it will be realy hard work to do it, idealy in sufficently big port, but well if you have that big port here, it is liely that you wil here base forces for all tasks right, as it will be base of some importance.
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RE: AV's and land based planes

Post by czert2 »

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Not to mention some planes required there to be a port as they didn't have any wheels! I don't think that's modeled all that well in the game, but I could be wrong. I do know that some of the PBY models and the Australian S-23, for example, aren't able to pick up troops from a hex without a coastline (the game gives you a message, even), but I don't think there's anything preventing you from basing those PBYs and S-23s at a landlocked base with no water... Never tried, though.
The game engine will not allow you to place float plane (patrol or otherwise) in a non water hex. I've tried. You can't even ship supplies, etc, by such craft to non water hexes. But to some extent you are proving my point in that Amphibious aircraft (those that can do water AND land as they have wheels) are able to be wheeled out and worked on, thus they should be covered by the land based aviation support points... and they are not IIRC.

well, for amhibous planes they should be able to be mainated by booth parties - ships and land-based forces, if not, it is one overlook in this game, since these planes can "sail" to ship for repairs.
For water-only planes not able to be serviced by land-based it is fully ok, as you dont move with boat on land too. that reason why they cant land on land (well, technicaly YES, but take off will be great problem :) )
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dr.hal
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RE: AV's and land based planes

Post by dr.hal »

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
the PBY-5 and its amphib version, the PBY-5A. Both can be supported by AV tenders, but only the 5A is able to land at inland bases while the PBY-5 is restricted to ports.
Exactly!!! This begs the question, then why is the 5A not supported by land based air support squads? It can roll into a hanger, doesn't need cranes, etc... but yet it is not supported and must have an AV. So in truth "wheels" or no wheels is not the differentiator in terms of what aircraft are supported by what air support units.
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RE: AV's and land based planes

Post by Lokasenna »

Well yeah, there are amphibious planes and then there are seaplanes. Obviously you can't wheel a seaplane up next to the hangar. Honestly, I've never tried to move the S-23 or amphib versions of the Catalina to a base that doesn't have water. They're way too useful on island bases or other places without an airfield.


That said, I think Av Supp DOES work for float planes if there is no AVP/AV/AVD/CS present at the base. I'd have to test it, but I'm fairly certain. Of course I could be entirely off-base. I'm going by what the base information screen tells me - adding FPs adds to the Av. Supp. Required line, so I assume that standard aviation support can help them out.
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RE: AV's and land based planes

Post by slane_slith »

To my mind I think they should cover each other. Obviously, I have no direct knowledge of how it was done in the Pacific but I imagine a AV docking, bunch of guys with tool bags running down the gangplank and ripping the engine covers off of broken down planes…

Vice versa with amphibious, pull em up on the beach, fix em and push em back in…

I’m sure this MUCH over simplifies the troubles that actual mechanics had back then…

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dr.hal
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RE: AV's and land based planes

Post by dr.hal »

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I think Av Supp DOES work for float planes if there is no AVP/AV/AVD/CS present at the base. I'd have to test it, but I'm fairly certain.
If that proves to be true PLEASE let us know.... THANKS.
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RE: AV's and land based planes

Post by LoBaron »

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I think Av Supp DOES work for float planes if there is no AVP/AV/AVD/CS present at the base. I'd have to test it, but I'm fairly certain.
If that proves to be true PLEASE let us know.... THANKS.

Sorry I missed that question before. It was never stated that land based AS does NOT support seaplanes. It does.
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RE: AV's and land based planes

Post by AW1Steve »

Seaplane bases , or air bases with seaplane facilities can fix seaplanes ashore. This by using "beaching gear" (slap on temporary wheels) that allow the seaplane to wheel ashore up the ramp or even across a beach. You then wheel it to the hanger and do what you need to do. Then tow it back the water and launch it back in (sort of like launching a boat off a trailer). Naval Air Stations that used to have seaplane facilities (Like NAS Jacksonville, Patuxtant river , Oak Harbor, Pearl Harbor , and many others still have ramps. But all you really needed was access to water.

Tenders , worked in an anchorage. They had specialized boats, lighters and other water craft, and often could hoist the plane aboard.
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rustysi
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RE: AV's and land based planes

Post by rustysi »

ORIGINAL: slane

I’m sure this has been covered but my searching hasn’t found anything.

I need to assign some land based fighters to some far-flung islands but don’t want to waste the time hauling a bunch of base forces out into the middle of nowhere. Will AV’s, AVD’s and the like count as aviation support for land based aircraft or do I need to send the BF’s along for the ride?

Thanks ahead

If you don't already know this you can take care of it by using a Mavis (PBY or any seaplane, not floatplane) to fly some AV to a remote base to support A/C that way. When done just pick 'em up. And, yes ground based aviation support will support seasplanes/floatplanes.
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RE: AV's and land based planes

Post by slane_slith »

ORIGINAL: rustysi

ORIGINAL: slane

I’m sure this has been covered but my searching hasn’t found anything.

I need to assign some land based fighters to some far-flung islands but don’t want to waste the time hauling a bunch of base forces out into the middle of nowhere. Will AV’s, AVD’s and the like count as aviation support for land based aircraft or do I need to send the BF’s along for the ride?

Thanks ahead

If you don't already know this you can take care of it by using a Mavis (PBY or any seaplane, not floatplane) to fly some AV to a remote base to support A/C that way. When done just pick 'em up. And, yes ground based aviation support will support seasplanes/floatplanes.

That’s actually a pretty good idea. I’ve done it before right after I’ve taken a base but hadn’t thought about using it in this case. It would allow me to use air HQ’s to work several bases instead of just one.

Thanks rustysi
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rustysi
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RE: AV's and land based planes

Post by rustysi »

Any time, I've gotten' so much help from this forum I'll never be able to repay.
It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

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czert2
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RE: AV's and land based planes

Post by czert2 »

ORIGINAL: slane

To my mind I think they should cover each other. Obviously, I have no direct knowledge of how it was done in the Pacific but I imagine a AV docking, bunch of guys with tool bags running down the gangplank and ripping the engine covers off of broken down planes…

Vice versa with amphibious, pull em up on the beach, fix em and push em back in…

I’m sure this MUCH over simplifies the troubles that actual mechanics had back then…

well, they surely do some work on land based planes..but you run into great troubles when you need to use any tool which needs electicity, as stated by op - he wanted to use them on "deserted" islands. Not to mention if you will need some heavy machinery to move/lift up disambled plane parts.
So imho they should only maintain planes in flying condition, repair them ? not.
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