Ukraine forces???

[tom730_slith]

I recently purchased the computer version of World in Flames, but haven't gotten to the point of actually playing it yet. I played the board game years ago and looking at the optional rules was curious about the Ukraine option, and what forces it brings to the Axis side. The German player has to eliminate a fair amount of SS units, wondering if the trade off is worth it.
Can anyone help?

[Zorachus99]

Optional not implemented yet I think.

[Dabrion]

ORIGINAL: tom730

I recently purchased the computer version of World in Flames, but haven't gotten to the point of actually playing it yet. I played the board game years ago and looking at the optional rules was curious about the Ukraine option, and what forces it brings to the Axis side. The German player has to eliminate a fair amount of SS units, wondering if the trade off is worth it.
Can anyone help?

For GE:
No more problems with partisans severing your life link railway (green partisan 10). 5 blue factories you could* use now (*some if not all will be railed out). Kiev becomes a secondary supply center. Another minor HQ + some crappy (in comparison to the SS) units.

For RU:
More forcepool, cannot reinforce there anymore (only Ukrainian units). Ukraine can be conquered independently and will then be a 2ndry supply center for the conqueror.

Never seen it ingame. For GE it seems neutral in cost benefit ratio. RU is making itself strategically more vulnerable, but will profit from the force pool. The later you do it, the better the trade, since you get access to more/better units from the Ukrainian force pool.

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

Did they get rid of the requirement that you had to spend the O-Chit to set up the Ukraine? That always kind of made it a deal breaker for me, on either side.

[Orm]

No, you still need to expend an offensive chit to create Ukraine. And that is probably why I never seen it done.

[Dabrion]

OC or 15 BP if playing with OPoints afaik.

[Orm]

Anyone seen Ukraine created and was it worth it?

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

ORIGINAL: tom730

I recently purchased the computer version of World in Flames, but haven't gotten to the point of actually playing it yet. I played the board game years ago and looking at the optional rules was curious about the Ukraine option, and what forces it brings to the Axis side. The German player has to eliminate a fair amount of SS units, wondering if the trade off is worth it.
Can anyone help?

For GE:
No more problems with partisans severing your life link railway (green partisan 10). 5 blue factories you could* use now (*some if not all will be railed out). Kiev becomes a secondary supply center. Another minor HQ + some crappy (in comparison to the SS) units.

For RU:
More forcepool, cannot reinforce there anymore (only Ukrainian units). Ukraine can be conquered independently and will then be a 2ndry supply center for the conqueror.

Never seen it ingame. For GE it seems neutral in cost benefit ratio. RU is making itself strategically more vulnerable, but will profit from the force pool. The later you do it, the better the trade, since you get access to more/better units from the Ukrainian force pool.

Add: all cities in the Ukraine aren't supply centers for the USSR anymore, after the Axis have taken them for the German side.
I've seen the Ukraine created once in a game during a "Kitchen Sink type" 1941 Barbarossa. The USSR didn't have a land unit in Kiev at the end of the second turn of the war in Russia. They were really hammered in the area around Smolensk in that game. Suddenly Germany decided to put a PARA attack unto the place (behind the front, using Italian ATR and ground support) to see if they could capture the city and exploit this during the next turn. They did and turn ended. In the following peace phase, there was a long discussion between the two Axis players and the decision was made to create the Ukraine, using the German offensive chit...

Now, I thought at the time the Axis were mad (I played the USA/China in that game) using their offensive chit at that time. Later however, I've come to the conclusion they did something quite smart. There was only one factory railed out of the Ukraine at that time and the blow to USSR production was (together with the 4 factories they had moved towards Siberia) quite large. I think it was one of the reasons why the USSR was almost conquered in that game. Only a bunch of very bad die rolls in the Urals and the Caucasus in the summer of 1942 made the Germans fail.

So I will guard with the USSR against a possible early capture of Kiev to prevent this from happening early in the USSR-German war...

[Dabrion]

Wasn't thinking of the loss of supply indeed, that puts the defense of these Krim peninsula in jeopardy. You might even be able to exploit the chaotic retreat situation. Not be so bad after all, still a tall order for the OC and SS units.

I also remember reading somewhere about a backstab kinda move, where you press for Kiev and create the Ukraine to unhinge a strong Dniepr defense line. Not sure if it is a real move though.

[tom730_slith]

Thanks!
Is there a way to see what the actual Ukrainian units are? From my days of playing the board game (quite a few years ago!) I remember how valuable the SS units were, and losing one of each type plus the Offensive chit (new to me but seems like a hefty price) seems like a stiff price. I've always been fascinated by the minor allies of the Germans historically, and recall reading about Cossack units and Slovak, Spanish Blue Division, and even Walloon units. Very curious how the added Ukrainian forces and the subtraction of Ukrainian Partisans would impact the war. It's a very large area, and once the German player doesn't have to worry about keeping it secure it frees up units as well as granting other benefits.
Does anyone know how to just see the Ukrainian Force pool?

[paulderynck]

The Ukraine is listed in the MWiF Players Manual as potentially a future expansion. It is one of the options that was not coded for release. Here are the units (from the Vassal module):

[Orm]

And here are the Ukrainian units in MWIF.

[Klydon]

An offensive chit and a pile of SS units for that?

Riiiiight!

(I don't see it happening but extremely rarely in the case of Kiev being captured by paratroopers and a lot of industry still in place and even then I am not sure it is worth it).

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Klydon

An offensive chit and a pile of SS units for that?

Riiiiight!

(I don't see it happening but extremely rarely in the case of Kiev being captured by paratroopers and a lot of industry still in place and even then I am not sure it is worth it).

+1

[tom730_slith]

ORIGINAL: Orm

And here are the Ukrainian units in MWIF.

Thanks! I'm thinking if I don't build SS units prior to taking Kiev, I only give up an Offensive Chit and remove some SS units from the production pool - and in exchange I eliminate the problem of Partisans in the Ukraine, add some friendly units and Supply sources, and eliminate the need to garrison cities in the Ukraine. Overall not bad for the German player.

[Klydon]

Well, there are some issues.

First, you will get a SS infantry unit from the start of the game. That isn't a big deal to a point in the grand scheme of things.

As far as not building SS units, well that comes down to the luck of the draw. SS units are going to appear in the mech and motorized infantry pools. Units are drawn randomly, so you don't have a lot of choice if one of them gets built or not.

The other issue is getting enough units in the garrison to declare war on the Russians in the first place. Considering SS corps count as 2 for that calculation, it is handy to have some on hand if the Russians are working on stuffing the border.

Something else is regardless if the Russian player is a total fool and puts nothing in Kiev, should the Russians call the reserves out (why wouldn't they), one of the units called out goes in Kiev and it isn't a bad unit. With that, there is no way to conduct an airborne landing on Kiev with any reasonable chance of success. The Russians are going to fight hard for the river line as well (well in most cases they will) along with railing out industry in the area.

To each their own and I suppose it is one of those things to do at some point. I just don't see forking over a offensive chit in order to buy the right to build some pretty crummy units. Along with that, I imagine that the Ukraine state doesn't get along nice with the Hungarians, Italians, Rumanians and Bulgarians and any other Axis contingent other than Germans that may be in the area.

[tom730_slith]

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Well, there are some issues.

First, you will get a SS infantry unit from the start of the game. That isn't a big deal to a point in the grand scheme of things.

As far as not building SS units, well that comes down to the luck of the draw. SS units are going to appear in the mech and motorized infantry pools. Units are drawn randomly, so you don't have a lot of choice if one of them gets built or not.

The other issue is getting enough units in the garrison to declare war on the Russians in the first place. Considering SS corps count as 2 for that calculation, it is handy to have some on hand if the Russians are working on stuffing the border.

Something else is regardless if the Russian player is a total fool and puts nothing in Kiev, should the Russians call the reserves out (why wouldn't they), one of the units called out goes in Kiev and it isn't a bad unit. With that, there is no way to conduct an airborne landing on Kiev with any reasonable chance of success. The Russians are going to fight hard for the river line as well (well in most cases they will) along with railing out industry in the area.

To each their own and I suppose it is one of those things to do at some point. I just don't see forking over a offensive chit in order to buy the right to build some pretty crummy units. Along with that, I imagine that the Ukraine state doesn't get along nice with the Hungarians, Italians, Rumanians and Bulgarians and any other Axis contingent other than Germans that may be in the area.

OK, that makes a big difference. I just got the computer version and when I played years ago I seem to remember during the production phase we paid more to build SS units, and we didn't start with any. If SS units randomly appear when building I can see it could be a HUGE sacrifice.
Oh well. Thanks a lot for the info!

[Orm]

The USSR partisan value remains the same so although there will be no partisans in Ukraine you still need a lot of units for partisan duty in USSR. With Ukraine created you have just created the first target for the enemy offence.