BigBabes air support - experiences

[castor troy]

Hi there

what are players' experiences using the latest beta and BigBabes in regards to air support? As the Japanese, it's like needing 2000 av support but having only 750 at start, no chance to see it becoming any better
when I look at the reinforcements, it will only get WORSE as there will be more "engines" incoming than air support. How does this play out? Roughly 2/3 of my airforce has been stood down in back areas as there is
only a handful av support anywhere, not being able to even support two or three air units.

Has there been any discussion about this and what do people think about it? I know the Japanese were nowhere in a state like the Allied but thinking they had only 1/3 of the needed airsupport going to war (and only
getting worse) is something I wonder about. Haven't looked at the Allied side but if av support is cut down the same way then I wonder how to support any bomber base. The beta that changed airsupport needs kind of
trippled av support need and BigBabes seems to have cut available av support in halve or so.

Thoughts? [&:]

[crsutton]

Dunno about Japanese support but Allies supports seems to have enough. For Japan a lot of bases will operate with insufficient support. This means slower repair rates and more planes on the ground disabled. Bout the way it should be. I think JWE said that the Babes were designed to be played with PDU off. That means those that play with PDU on and overproduced aircraft might have some problems. However, I will leave it to them to explain it as I am brand new to Da Babes.

[Spidery]

Don't forget that in the Beta level 8 and 9 air fields double aviation support.

So base all your back area training on level 8/9 air fields to free up a lot of support. Use the extra aviation support from AV ships to support FP and patrol craft.

Most of the time I seem able to have enough aviation support (up to April 1942) but there is little slack so when there is a need to move aircraft, temporary operation without enough support happens.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Spidery

Don't forget that in the Beta level 8 and 9 air fields double aviation support.

So base all your back area training on level 8/9 air fields to free up a lot of support. Use the extra aviation support from AV ships to support FP and patrol craft.

Most of the time I seem able to have enough aviation support (up to April 1942) but there is little slack so when there is a need to move aircraft, temporary operation without enough support happens.

now that's great info thanks, didn't know about big airfields doubling av support, not that I will have many as the Japanese [:D] perhaps I should go and start up reading the patch notes if I can find them somewhere

[GreyJoy]

In DBB Japan is seriously hampered with Aviation support. You will Always struggle and never have enough of it.
In my game vs QBall i was ALWAYS in red with AV support. Always. Everywhere. That means you will need to treat your air units very carefully because fatigue and morale will go bad very easily...and damaged high SR aircrafts won't be usable for many days...mostly weeks.

[Icedawg]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

Hi there

what are players' experiences using the latest beta and BigBabes in regards to air support? As the Japanese, it's like needing 2000 av support but having only 750 at start, no chance to see it becoming any better
when I look at the reinforcements, it will only get WORSE as there will be more "engines" incoming than air support. How does this play out? Roughly 2/3 of my airforce has been stood down in back areas as there is
only a handful av support anywhere, not being able to even support two or three air units.

Has there been any discussion about this and what do people think about it? I know the Japanese were nowhere in a state like the Allied but thinking they had only 1/3 of the needed airsupport going to war (and only
getting worse) is something I wonder about. Haven't looked at the Allied side but if av support is cut down the same way then I wonder how to support any bomber base. The beta that changed airsupport needs kind of
trippled av support need and BigBabes seems to have cut available av support in halve or so.

Thoughts? [&:]

Are you referring to the latest beta ("1123v")? If so, I wasn't aware there were any significant changes to aviation support.

Here's a quote from michaelm's latest post in the beta thread.

21/12/2013: 1123v
Fixed Random TF could get destination set when another TF set a Patrol Boundary 1
Added Upgrade in addition to Replacement now shows on Army list screen. Bit cramped but you should be able to click on each one.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

ORIGINAL: castor troy

Hi there

what are players' experiences using the latest beta and BigBabes in regards to air support? As the Japanese, it's like needing 2000 av support but having only 750 at start, no chance to see it becoming any better
when I look at the reinforcements, it will only get WORSE as there will be more "engines" incoming than air support. How does this play out? Roughly 2/3 of my airforce has been stood down in back areas as there is
only a handful av support anywhere, not being able to even support two or three air units.

Has there been any discussion about this and what do people think about it? I know the Japanese were nowhere in a state like the Allied but thinking they had only 1/3 of the needed airsupport going to war (and only
getting worse) is something I wonder about. Haven't looked at the Allied side but if av support is cut down the same way then I wonder how to support any bomber base. The beta that changed airsupport needs kind of
trippled av support need and BigBabes seems to have cut available av support in halve or so.

Thoughts? [&:]

Are you referring to the latest beta ("1123v")? If so, I wasn't aware there were any significant changes to aviation support.

Here's a quote from michaelm's latest post in the beta thread.

21/12/2013: 1123v
Fixed Random TF could get destination set when another TF set a Patrol Boundary 1
Added Upgrade in addition to Replacement now shows on Army list screen. Bit cramped but you should be able to click on each one.

no, I was doing quite a big leap forward, my last PBEM was still the official patch, now going with the latest beta patch... feels like a new game lol

was there also a change in attack altitudes? I see Hudsons bombing ships at 3000ft with a full bomb load, shouldn't they carry reduced load as they aren't attack bombers and are below 6000ft?

[Icedawg]

When I first went to DBB C from stock, I noticed a huge difference in AV and naval support, but after playing for a bit, I found that I could get by. You just have to be very efficient.

Since switching to the latest beta (1123u), AV support actually seems to be a bit more abundant. Take advantage of level 8 and 9 airfields. Every field that can be expanded to level 8 should be. I'm into mid 43 as the Japanese, and I can even afford the luxury of having 100+ extra AV at active airfields - really helps shorten maintenance/repair times and seems to keep plane fatigue quite low.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

When I first went to DBB C from stock, I noticed a huge difference in AV and naval support, but after playing for a bit, I found that I could get by. You just have to be very efficient.

Since switching to the latest beta (1123u), AV support actually seems to be a bit more abundant. Take advantage of level 8 and 9 airfields. Every field that can be expanded to level 8 should be. I'm into mid 43 as the Japanese, and I can even afford the luxury of having 100+ extra AV at active airfields - really helps shorten maintenance/repair times and seems to keep plane fatigue quite low.

up until starting this campaign I was very reluctant to build such huge airfields as the Japanese as you spend a huge amount of supplies for something that isn't really needed as a lvl 5 airfield works just fine
for 99% of IJ need. Now that it doubles av support it really seems to be a must to build such huge airfields (quite ahistorical) and then you just hand over B-29 ready airfields to the Allied. All in all it doesn't
seem to go into the right direction IMO as usual play was ahistorical/unrealistical enough, trying to build the biggest airfields in the world all over the Pacific just makes it worse.

But then the mod/patch seems to force you doing it or you just shut down 50% of the IJ aircraft alltogether somewhere in a base on Japan.

[Numdydar]

Here is a good article on why AV support is so limited for Japan. Pretty eye opening at least for me [:)]

http://www.historynet.com/japans-fatally-flawed-air-forces-in-world-war-ii-2.htm

[witpqs]

Just a comment on your original post in case you meant that literally about the number of 'engines' arriving as the scenario goes on... air support is required per aircraft, not per engine. Aircraft stacking at airfields is counted by engines (but not by aircraft), and separately by groups as well.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Just a comment on your original post in case you meant that literally about the number of 'engines' arriving as the scenario goes on... air support is required per aircraft, not per engine. Aircraft stacking at airfields is counted by engines (but not by aircraft), and separately by groups as well.

yeah, engines wasn't the right word im my original post, I meant aircraft.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Here is a good article on why AV support is so limited for Japan. Pretty eye opening at least for me [:)]

http://www.historynet.com/japans-fatally-flawed-air-forces-in-world-war-ii-2.htm

Wow. Unbelievable. I though it was bad, but this points out so many areas why the lack of interest in these areas of construction, logistics and support were so devastating to the Japanese efforts. Good thing. Imagine if they had tackled this stuff and worked it out.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Here is a good article on why AV support is so limited for Japan. Pretty eye opening at least for me [:)]

http://www.historynet.com/japans-fatally-flawed-air-forces-in-world-war-ii-2.htm

good article and I don't contradict it, if you read what I have posted above, I said it would be ahistorical and unrealistically to build huge airfields as the Japanese (even the lvl 5 I used to is fantasy) when
the article states the Japanese were only able to build up Buin in the first 10 months of the war and that wouldn't be a lvl 5.

The Japanese probably haven't built a single lvl 8 airfield outside of Japan during the war but with the aviation support changes this is what a Japanese player got to do. Not building one but as many as possible.
lol

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

When I first went to DBB C from stock, I noticed a huge difference in AV and naval support, but after playing for a bit, I found that I could get by. You just have to be very efficient.

Since switching to the latest beta (1123u), AV support actually seems to be a bit more abundant. Take advantage of level 8 and 9 airfields. Every field that can be expanded to level 8 should be. I'm into mid 43 as the Japanese, and I can even afford the luxury of having 100+ extra AV at active airfields - really helps shorten maintenance/repair times and seems to keep plane fatigue quite low.

up until starting this campaign I was very reluctant to build such huge airfields as the Japanese as you spend a huge amount of supplies for something that isn't really needed as a lvl 5 airfield works just fine
for 99% of IJ need. Now that it doubles av support it really seems to be a must to build such huge airfields (quite ahistorical) and then you just hand over B-29 ready airfields to the Allied. All in all it doesn't
seem to go into the right direction IMO as usual play was ahistorical/unrealistical enough, trying to build the biggest airfields in the world all over the Pacific just makes it worse.

But then the mod/patch seems to force you doing it or you just shut down 50% of the IJ aircraft alltogether somewhere in a base on Japan.

Yes, I think this is a good design feature and forces the Japanese player to adhere to the historical limitations faced by Japan. They had enough engineers and equipment to build a few major air complexes (Rabaul) but at the cost of having to skimp on most all others. Lae, Gasamata, Buin and so on. The Japanese player will have to do the same. That is, pick a few major bases to build out and plan his campaigns centered around them. Not saying it is balanced but it is historical which I think is want they wanted to do with DaBabes.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

When I first went to DBB C from stock, I noticed a huge difference in AV and naval support, but after playing for a bit, I found that I could get by. You just have to be very efficient.

Since switching to the latest beta (1123u), AV support actually seems to be a bit more abundant. Take advantage of level 8 and 9 airfields. Every field that can be expanded to level 8 should be. I'm into mid 43 as the Japanese, and I can even afford the luxury of having 100+ extra AV at active airfields - really helps shorten maintenance/repair times and seems to keep plane fatigue quite low.

Not every field should be expanded, at least not as Japan. Remember that you'll lose a lot of those fields as the Allies advance. Only expand where it suits your needs for defense, and for fields where you can reasonably expect that the Allies won't have possession of it until it doesn't matter anymore.

On the flip side of this, remember that level 9 AFs have no stacking limits... That plus kamis could be devastating.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

When I first went to DBB C from stock, I noticed a huge difference in AV and naval support, but after playing for a bit, I found that I could get by. You just have to be very efficient.

Since switching to the latest beta (1123u), AV support actually seems to be a bit more abundant. Take advantage of level 8 and 9 airfields. Every field that can be expanded to level 8 should be. I'm into mid 43 as the Japanese, and I can even afford the luxury of having 100+ extra AV at active airfields - really helps shorten maintenance/repair times and seems to keep plane fatigue quite low.

Not every field should be expanded, at least not as Japan. Remember that you'll lose a lot of those fields as the Allies advance. Only expand where it suits your needs for defense, and for fields where you can reasonably expect that the Allies won't have possession of it until it doesn't matter anymore.

On the flip side of this, remember that level 9 AFs have no stacking limits... That plus kamis could be devastating.

Well, it still will make it much tougher for Japan and call in the question of building scads of late war super fighters with very poor service ratings.

[Symon]

Actually, according to my calculations, Japanese deployable units with AV represent 75-80% of the AV requirements of all Japanese deployable Hootzkotai, in the game. And then there’s the air bases in the HI (and Korea, and China, and Taiwan) and the air bases that arrive over time in the conquered territories. All things considered, Japan has a plethora of AV units, in places where she did, and a rational paucity of AV units where she didn’t.

I can bit count and find that Japan has greater number of AV than she has aircraft.

A lack of AV support is a matter of game control. The scenario is designed to force a player to pay attention to such things. Sticking your winkie in the windmill is not cause to complain. There is enough AV if you do what Japan did and allocate it rationally.

Ciao. JWE

[pws1225]

Thanks for the AV count. I'm starting my first DBB game and was getting a little worried. Not to say that I won't get something whacked in a windmill, but if I do, I know it's my fault.

Regards, Paul

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Symon

Actually, according to my calculations, Japanese deployable units with AV represent 75-80% of the AV requirements of all Japanese deployable Hootzkotai, in the game. And then there’s the air bases in the HI (and Korea, and China, and Taiwan) and the air bases that arrive over time in the conquered territories. All things considered, Japan has a plethora of AV units, in places where she did, and a rational paucity of AV units where she didn’t.

I can bit count and find that Japan has greater number of AV than she has aircraft.

A lack of AV support is a matter of game control. The scenario is designed to force a player to pay attention to such things. Sticking your winkie in the windmill is not cause to complain. There is enough AV if you do what Japan did and allocate it rationally.

Ciao. JWE

John, I wasn't complaining, I was asking about experiences of other players and what they do about it. I haven't played BigBabes (only Babeslite) before AND I haven't played with the beta. So compared to my last
Babeslite campaign I was "hit" twice. First due to Babes reducing av support (no prob with that) AND the beta that created the need for 1 support/per aircraft with no cap for this. At the moment I am trying to
cramp all my airsupport together and hope to get some airbases running. What I am still concerned about is what I have posted above, the beta changes that see each aircraft needing one support AND having 8+ airfields
doubling av support leads into more, far more, level 8 or even 9 airfields. I guess as Japan I probably haven't built more than three lvl 8/9 outside Japan (with Clark already being that big) in my previous games
as I never thought that would be realistic, nor was there a need for this. Now the rule "forces" me to build quite some of them. Took a long look at the map to figure out where I will build up and I am at something
like 16 or 17 (+/- 2 depending of how far I will advance) of these airfields I am going to build.

Usually my IJ airfields were of size 5 which is probably twice as big as the real IJ airfields were on average and the IJ had enough probs building those, let alone double the size on average. I know Babes also
reduced the ability to build bases but a couple of hundred engineers at a base seems still not that hard to achieve and if you have bases with x/7 sps you will be fine building them up. Of course someone will tell
me I am not forced to do this, it would be ahistorical and I shouldn't do it. At the same time it would be ahistorical to supply a division on New Guinea as that is something the IJ failed to achieve too, with many
other things I do in the game.

Again, please don't see my post as negative critics, I was not complaining nor have I been saying this is all bullocks. I love the game, I love Babes, that's the reason I have been playing it over so many years and
am still doing.