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RE: World in Flames Download Version Now Available - 1/16/2014 9:13:34 PM   
markb50k

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR


And that's the reason we ask the question.....because there is an answer that's better than "Who knows?" So let them answer the question.

As for the post above about the appearance to the casual gamer......you mean the way it appears to the majority of gamers......as in all of them who don't frequent this forum regularly.

you would think most would realize that if you only get the people who frequent this forum to buy the game,...the game will be a huge financial failure...so you might want to have an answer for those "other" gamers.



Actually i said the casual observer, and what I meant is that I can see very easily why people have a "WTF" moment when they see the price hasnt changed. I wasnt trying to draw a distinction between casual gamers and hardcore gamers, if that is what you were thinking. Overall, I don't fault people in the least for reacting, at least at the beginning, with a ?. Its definitely odd. But the fact that its still a good price and the fact, that most likely, there some constraints Matrix has on the pricing of the game (like if its too low it will eat into the actual board-game sales) I just dont see it as an issue to get too worked up about.

If they did lower it would I have a "WTF" moment and complain, because I paid more for books that I didnt necessarily want? Nope. The game has been worth the price, and I would have felt fine paying $99 for it without the books.



< Message edited by markb50k -- 1/16/2014 10:14:51 PM >

(in reply to Scott_WAR)
Post #: 61
RE: World in Flames Download Version Now Available - 1/16/2014 9:28:04 PM   
Aurelian

 

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To quote Ian from another thread:

1) Follow a business plan based on 13 years of running a successful company and over 20 years in the games industry.
2) Follow a business plan based on what a journalist and our fans (none of whom to my knowledge have ever made a game or run computer game publisher) suggest because we don't have the guts to follow our beliefs.

Maybe JD et al should do some reading? http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3308906&mpage=1&key=tim%2Cstone

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3312181&mpage=1&key=?




< Message edited by Aurelian -- 1/16/2014 10:42:55 PM >


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Post #: 62
RE: World in Flames Download Version Now Available - 1/16/2014 9:30:18 PM   
Scott_WAR

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: markb50k

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR


And that's the reason we ask the question.....because there is an answer that's better than "Who knows?" So let them answer the question.

As for the post above about the appearance to the casual gamer......you mean the way it appears to the majority of gamers......as in all of them who don't frequent this forum regularly.

you would think most would realize that if you only get the people who frequent this forum to buy the game,...the game will be a huge financial failure...so you might want to have an answer for those "other" gamers.



Actually i said the casual observer, and what I meant is that I can see very easily why people have a "WTF" moment when they see the price hasnt changed. I wasnt trying to draw a distinction between casual gamers and hardcore gamers, if that is what you were thinking. Overall, I don't fault people in the least for reacting, at least at the beginning, with a ?. Its definitely odd. But the fact that its still a good price and the fact, that most likely, there some constraints Matrix has on the pricing of the game (like if its too low it will eat into the actual board-game sales) I just dont see it as an issue to get too worked up about.

If they did lower it would I have a "WTF" moment and complain, because I paid more for books that I didnt necessarily want? Nope. The game has been worth the price, and I would have felt fine paying $99 for it without the books.




My mistake on the casual thing,...it indeed was what I was thinking.

My point is this game has to have a larger market audience than those few here on the forums.......those that now the whole story behind the pricing so far. So there will be a lot of people (hopefully) that will want to know why the download "no books" version costs the same as the physical "books included" version. Especially given the high quality of the books,.... they have to be a good chunk of the games cost.

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Post #: 63
RE: World in Flames Download Version Now Available - 1/16/2014 9:33:11 PM   
Scott_WAR

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

To quote Ian from another thread:

1) Follow a business plan based on 13 years of running a successful company and over 20 years in the games industry.
2) Follow a business plan based on what a journalist and our fans (none of whom to my knowledge have ever made a game or run computer game publisher) suggest because we don't have the guts to follow our beliefs.

Maybe JD et al should do some reading? http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3308906&mpage=1&key=tim%2Cstone


That just makes the question more relevant. We aren't asking why they are doing it the same as always. Just the opposite. Why are they doing it differently?

Which is a contradiction to your quote.

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 64
RE: World in Flames Download Version Now Available - 1/16/2014 9:39:10 PM   
AxelNL


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The books are most probably printed in China. Compared to the time creating the content the printing costs are a small factor. Postal charges and customs for outside US shipments is more expensive than the printcosts of the books I would say.

Matrix listened to their customers - and I saw a few who bought because of that. I hope all is said and done about this decision. There are a couple of good posts explaining the situation to newcomers - maybe they can be kept and put high on the stickylist so that this discussion will not erupt from time to time.

(in reply to Scott_WAR)
Post #: 65
RE: World in Flames Download Version Now Available - 1/16/2014 9:52:29 PM   
Scott_WAR

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AxelNL

Compared to the time creating the content the printing costs are a small factor. Postal charges and customs for outside US shipments is more expensive than the printcosts of the books I would say.


In another thread about game prices,....a matrix employee listed the time it takes to develop a game as one of the factors in its cost........I made a joke....that WIF had been in development for so long it would probably cost around $100 when it finally released. It was a joke,...but sadly it was on us.

< Message edited by Scott_WAR -- 1/16/2014 10:52:57 PM >

(in reply to AxelNL)
Post #: 66
RE: World in Flames Download Version Now Available - 1/16/2014 9:59:06 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

quote:

ORIGINAL: AxelNL

Compared to the time creating the content the printing costs are a small factor. Postal charges and customs for outside US shipments is more expensive than the printcosts of the books I would say.


In another thread about game prices,....a matrix employee listed the time it takes to develop a game as one of the factors in its cost........I made a joke....that WIF had been in development for so long it would probably cost around $100 when it finally released. It was a joke,...but sadly it was on us.
warspite1

No its not For those of us that desperately want the game (as it represents the only realistic chance of ever playing WIF again) how can the joke be on us??

The game is out, its available for purchase - thank goodness, or more pertinently, thank Matrix and above all, to Steve. Why is the joke on us? The game is what it is, and thus cost to develop what it cost. How about being thankful its here rather than moaning constantly about the cost, the marketing strategy etc etc??


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(in reply to Scott_WAR)
Post #: 67
RE: World in Flames Download Version Now Available - 1/16/2014 11:30:05 PM   
Scott_WAR

 

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$100 for a game that doesn't have online multiplayer OR an AI..................yeah that's a pretty big joke.

But its really a matter of opinon. I am guessing the game isn't exactly flying off the shelf......I'll let you draw your own conclusion from that.

EDIT-I could be mistaken,...is netplay still not working right?

< Message edited by Scott_WAR -- 1/17/2014 12:41:38 AM >

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 68
RE: World in Flames Download Version Now Available - 1/17/2014 12:20:01 AM   
juntoalmar


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So instead of waiting for having the perfect game in 2 years (PBEM, AI, ...), they decided to release it now. And some of you would prefer they have waited a bit more.

So?

1) If you are like those who wanted it now: buy it now.
2) If you are like those who wanted them to wait until AI & PBEM was ready: wait until they are ready.

Shouldn't everybody be happy?


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(in reply to Scott_WAR)
Post #: 69
RE: World in Flames Download Version Now Available - 1/17/2014 12:48:58 AM   
Scott_WAR

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juntoalmar

So instead of waiting for having the perfect game in 2 years (PBEM, AI, ...), they decided to release it now. And some of you would prefer they have waited a bit more.

So?

1) If you are like those who wanted it now: buy it now.
2) If you are like those who wanted them to wait until AI & PBEM was ready: wait until they are ready.

Shouldn't everybody be happy?



I would have no issue with that,...but I would expect to pay accordingly. Part of the game delivered should equal part of the price....not the highest price ever at Matrix.

(in reply to juntoalmar)
Post #: 70
RE: World in Flames Download Version Now Available - 1/17/2014 2:26:54 AM   
Scott_WAR

 

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Time for a different take on this. Sometime I get so focused on the point I am making that context gets lost....losing sight of the forest paying too much attention to one tree so to say.

First let me say.....for those that have been waiting years for this game and would buy it almost at any price....congrats you got your wish. I am happy for you. I actually mean that.

To be completely fair Matrix did exactly what they said........they made it so you could order the game and opt to not have the books shipped. They never said it would be any cheaper. In fact they never promised anything,...so just the option we have now is something they should be commended for. Nobody is complaining about that, no matter how much certain individuals want to try and turn it in to that.

The question being asked is why the download only version costs as much as the physical version when almost every other game sold by Matrix has the download only version costing $10 less than physical, especially when the physical version of this game has far more than the average physical version(3 hardbound books)?



(in reply to Scott_WAR)
Post #: 71
RE: World in Flames Download Version Now Available - 1/17/2014 2:29:07 AM   
paulderynck


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The question being asked has been answered multiple times.

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Post #: 72
RE: World in Flames Download Version Now Available - 1/17/2014 2:32:57 AM   
Scott_WAR

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

The question being asked has been answered multiple times.


Please post a link.

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Post #: 73
RE: World in Flames Download Version Now Available - 1/17/2014 2:34:46 AM   
paulderynck


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http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3521650&mpage=2&key=

Post #33



< Message edited by paulderynck -- 1/17/2014 3:35:29 AM >


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Post #: 74
RE: World in Flames Download Version Now Available - 1/17/2014 2:44:46 AM   
Scott_WAR

 

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I see no answer from Matrix there at all. I see your opinion,....about an unrelated matter at that,....but since you don't work for Matrix that's useless.

< Message edited by Scott_WAR -- 1/17/2014 3:45:43 AM >

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Post #: 75
RE: World in Flames Download Version Now Available - 1/17/2014 2:48:27 AM   
paulderynck


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Matrix needs to answer that they've done exactly what they said they'd do? To some troll that's been plaguing the forum for 36 hours now, who won't buy the game because it's unfinished and and has no AI, and can't afford it to start with?

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Post #: 76
RE: World in Flames Download Version Now Available - 1/17/2014 3:00:03 AM   
Scott_WAR

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Matrix needs to answer that they've done exactly what they said they'd do? To some troll that's been plaguing the forum for 36 hours now, who won't buy the game because it's unfinished and and has no AI, and can't afford it to start with?


Wow,...thick skulled huh?

No, they need to answer the question being asked.

What exactly is your objection to the question being asked? Unless you work for Matrix you cant answer the question,....and having a fit a stomping your foot that someone would dare ask a question isn't going to make the big bad question go away. So what exactly do you hope to accomplish here?

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 77
RE: World in Flames Download Version Now Available - 1/17/2014 3:36:37 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Matrix needs to answer that they've done exactly what they said they'd do? To some troll that's been plaguing the forum for 36 hours now, who won't buy the game because it's unfinished and and has no AI, and can't afford it to start with?


And they are not *required* to answer it either.

People wanted a d/l only option. Matrix provided a d/l only option.

And what do they get, the same nonsense from people who think they know better. Claims that MG/S is wrong. That they don't know what they're doing.





< Message edited by Aurelian -- 1/17/2014 7:11:36 AM >


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Post #: 78
RE: World in Flames Download Version Now Available - 1/17/2014 4:26:58 AM   
Challerain

 

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I certainly can't spreak for Matrix, but here is my take anyway

Here is a quote from Erik from another thread

Hi everyone, the decision to go with a physical only release was made a while ago and the rationale was explained in my earlier posts. We honestly feel the hardbound manuals are a key part of the game - adding them in actually decreases our margin per copy as we did not increase the planned price once we made the decision to print the manuals at this quality level, but we feel that they are necessary to the game. We tried to get the shipping costs down as much as possible, but until our European warehouse re-opens, we were unable to get them down further outside the US given the weight and size of the package. We were not happy with the shipping costs either. The only option I can offer right now is to wait until later in Q1 2014 when the European warehouse opens as that should reduce shipping costs to Europe and remove the risk of a customs duty. Per the announcement we posted, our best guess on that is February/March.

< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 11/8/2013 9:20:03 AM >


So, Erik is stating the price was $100 before they added the manuals so removing them is still $100.

As for the physical versus download option and the $10 difference on all other games, I'll give you that one....however at $110 versus $100, it really isn't that big of an issue.

(in reply to Scott_WAR)
Post #: 79
RE: World in Flames Download Version Now Available - 1/17/2014 5:10:40 AM   
Scott_WAR

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Challerain

I certainly can't spreak for Matrix, but here is my take anyway

Here is a quote from Erik from another thread

Hi everyone, the decision to go with a physical only release was made a while ago and the rationale was explained in my earlier posts. We honestly feel the hardbound manuals are a key part of the game - adding them in actually decreases our margin per copy as we did not increase the planned price once we made the decision to print the manuals at this quality level, but we feel that they are necessary to the game. We tried to get the shipping costs down as much as possible, but until our European warehouse re-opens, we were unable to get them down further outside the US given the weight and size of the package. We were not happy with the shipping costs either. The only option I can offer right now is to wait until later in Q1 2014 when the European warehouse opens as that should reduce shipping costs to Europe and remove the risk of a customs duty. Per the announcement we posted, our best guess on that is February/March.

< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 11/8/2013 9:20:03 AM >


So, Erik is stating the price was $100 before they added the manuals so removing them is still $100.

As for the physical versus download option and the $10 difference on all other games, I'll give you that one....however at $110 versus $100, it really isn't that big of an issue.


Thank you. I remember that post just not where it was. I find it hard to believe that the books don't factor into the cost of the game,...but I find it harder to believe that Erik would deceive us, so if that's the case then I guess that's the way it is...but I must ask....if $10 is not a big deal........then why change their policy over it?




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Post #: 80
RE: World in Flames Download Version Now Available - 1/17/2014 5:21:13 AM   
paulderynck


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By your logic everyone who bought the game before the digital download only was offered - got a $10 discount. Hooray for us.

And Eric explained why they changed the policy. "We honestly feel the hardbound manuals are a key part of the game - adding them in actually decreases our margin per copy as we did not increase the planned price once we made the decision to print the manuals at this quality level, but we feel that they are necessary to the game."



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Post #: 81
RE: World in Flames Download Version Now Available - 1/17/2014 6:14:55 AM   
warspite1


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From: England
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR


quote:

ORIGINAL: juntoalmar

So instead of waiting for having the perfect game in 2 years (PBEM, AI, ...), they decided to release it now. And some of you would prefer they have waited a bit more.

So?

1) If you are like those who wanted it now: buy it now.
2) If you are like those who wanted them to wait until AI & PBEM was ready: wait until they are ready.

Shouldn't everybody be happy?



I would have no issue with that,...but I would expect to pay accordingly. Part of the game delivered should equal part of the price....not the highest price ever at Matrix.
warspite1

But its not your company. Its not for you to set the price and say what it should or shouldn't be. That is Matrix's job. As consumers we can then choose to pay said price or walk.

To you, the price is not worth it, and that's fine, no problem, that's your choice. Matrix on the other hand, think they have the price right.

Matrix have brought a game out that does not have many of the usual features - but are charging a premium price. A great many of us think its worth that price and we bought (and will pay more for more later) - many it seems do not and walked. Right can we move on now?

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Scott_WAR)
Post #: 82
RE: World in Flames Download Version Now Available - 1/17/2014 6:20:19 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck


quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

So far no answer has been given why the download version with just the game costs the same as the game and three hardback books. I am aware of how the game was released and how some claimed they would be happy with just downloading the game at the same price,...but as far as I am aware those people in no way speak for everyone.


The answer is immediately above in post #27. The fact you don't like the answer doesn't mean there's no answer.

He's looking for an answer from Matrix Games - like an official answer - not an answer from some pseudo spokesman or self assigned forum policeman.

He's entitled to ask - you can answer if you want, but he can choose to ignore your answer because he wants to know officially.

And as he said - the people who were willing to pay the same price without the books were not spokespeople for everyone. You probably only saw those answers in those threads because the rest couldn't be arsed to say that wasn't acceptable to them because of the hostility in this place.

If you don't like the "whining" and "carping" and "complaining" then don't read. Go play the game. And those terms used themselves are inflammatory.

HTF did you think this thread was going to go with that statement?

The search button is your friend: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3444898&mpage=3&key=

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Hi everyone, the decision to go with a physical only release was made a while ago and the rationale was explained in my earlier posts. We honestly feel the hardbound manuals are a key part of the game - adding them in actually decreases our margin per copy as we did not increase the planned price once we made the decision to print the manuals at this quality level, but we feel that they are necessary to the game. We tried to get the shipping costs down as much as possible, but until our European warehouse re-opens, we were unable to get them down further outside the US given the weight and size of the package. We were not happy with the shipping costs either. The only option I can offer right now is to wait until later in Q1 2014 when the European warehouse opens as that should reduce shipping costs to Europe and remove the risk of a customs duty. Per the announcement we posted, our best guess on that is February/March.


There is your answer. Whether you accept it or not is on you.



< Message edited by Aurelian -- 1/17/2014 7:26:25 AM >


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Post #: 83
RE: World in Flames Download Version Now Available - 1/17/2014 6:22:16 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR


quote:

ORIGINAL: juntoalmar

So instead of waiting for having the perfect game in 2 years (PBEM, AI, ...), they decided to release it now. And some of you would prefer they have waited a bit more.

So?

1) If you are like those who wanted it now: buy it now.
2) If you are like those who wanted them to wait until AI & PBEM was ready: wait until they are ready.

Shouldn't everybody be happy?



I would have no issue with that,...but I would expect to pay accordingly. Part of the game delivered should equal part of the price....not the highest price ever at Matrix.
warspite1

But its not your company. Its not for you to set the price and say what it should or shouldn't be. That is Matrix's job. As consumers we can then choose to pay said price or walk.

To you, the price is not worth it, and that's fine, no problem, that's your choice. Matrix on the other hand, think they have the price right.

Matrix have brought a game out that does not have many of the usual features - but are charging a premium price. A great many of us think its worth that price and we bought (and will pay more for more later) - many it seems do not and walked. Right can we move on now?


Stop making sense

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Post #: 84
RE: World in Flames Download Version Now Available - 1/17/2014 6:30:27 AM   
JudgeDredd


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He wasn't setting the price. He was asking why there seemed to be a change in pricing policy for this game compared to all others offered by Matrix

He also stated in post #77
quote:


What exactly is your objection to the question being asked


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Post #: 85
RE: World in Flames Download Version Now Available - 1/17/2014 11:00:29 AM   
KERENSKY

 

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So they got trapped by their idea to force sell the books on people.

Game should have been sold 90$, 120$ with book.
They force the book into the package and print them, but made a gesture to put a price of 100$.

Now they are trapped and cant lower the price of the digital dowload edition without raising the physical edition up to 125$.

As simple as that.

I am also convinced that they think that including books was mandatory because no one will pay 100$ for a computer games without shinies added to it.

(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 86
RE: World in Flames Download Version Now Available - 1/17/2014 12:32:05 PM   
Mike Parker

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KERENSKY

So they got trapped by their idea to force sell the books on people.

Game should have been sold 90$, 120$ with book.
They force the book into the package and print them, but made a gesture to put a price of 100$.

Now they are trapped and cant lower the price of the digital dowload edition without raising the physical edition up to 125$.

As simple as that.

I am also convinced that they think that including books was mandatory because no one will pay 100$ for a computer games without shinies added to it.

Possible however unlikely in my thought.

I hope I don't make anyone mad with this, its not my intent. Here is what I THINK happened, and I make a point I have no inside track into the mind of Matrix or ADG.

Harry Rowland and Matrix agreed to a price point for MWIF or probably more likely a minimum that allowed ADG to not overly canibalize the sales of the board game. ADG still wants to sell the board game version, and there is serious risk that MWIF at too low a price point would cause folks that might be interested in the board game to instead say "Well I will buy the computer version and see". I would guess that Matrix is somewhat constrained by protocols negotiated with ADG on the price of MWIF. I would also guess that including the books was also likely negotiated as a link back towards the physical boardgame. One could take the RAC buy the counters use the full scale unified map with MWIF and play the game quite easily actually (well with a huge table but WIF has always required a huge table for the full game).

I would guess one reason it took a bit to come up with a DD version was they had to go back into negotiations with ADG to make sure everything was kosher with a DD version as long as it did not erode the price point.

I also don't think IF what I say is true that the details will be revealed, they don't need to be at all, but to my mind such a situation seems prudent for both sides.

Lastly I re-iterate I don't know anything special I am neither an ADG nor Matrix insider, this is just my best guess. In simple terms Matrix wants to sell MWIF Harry wants to sell boardgames and they both hope with proper constraints that the other side will generate interest in their side!

(in reply to KERENSKY)
Post #: 87
RE: World in Flames Download Version Now Available - 1/17/2014 1:29:33 PM   
Toby42


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From: Central Florida
Status: offline
I just don't understand all of the fuss and hostility? If you don't like the deal, don't buy. If you can't afford it, don't buy. Matrix doesn't have to justify their business decisions to anyone! When it's all said and done, it's just s game! And yes I did purchase when it first came out! Am I happy with it, No. But I'm an adult and I made my decision, so I live with it....

_____________________________

Tony

(in reply to Mike Parker)
Post #: 88
RE: World in Flames Download Version Now Available - 1/17/2014 5:14:14 PM   
Scott_WAR

 

Posts: 1023
Joined: 2/24/2005
Status: offline
LOL. I knew the answer. I could have found and posted it myself. But then everybody wouldn't get to see certain individuals,...who also knew the answer already.....instead of answering the very simple question that others have already started asking as well.....they throw a tantrum about how DARE anyone ask a company a question about one of their products. Nevermind that EVERY company in the world will take and answer questions about their products.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Treale

I just don't understand all of the fuss and hostility? If you don't like the deal, don't buy. If you can't afford it, don't buy. Matrix doesn't have to justify their business decisions to anyone! When it's all said and done, it's just s game! And yes I did purchase when it first came out! Am I happy with it, No. But I'm an adult and I made my decision, so I live with it....


I don't understand why you are making such a fuss and being so hostile to people asking a simple question either. I find it funny you ask why all the fuss and hostility when you are one of the main ones making a fuss and being hostile.

< Message edited by Scott_WAR -- 1/17/2014 6:18:20 PM >

(in reply to Toby42)
Post #: 89
RE: World in Flames Download Version Now Available - 1/17/2014 5:37:44 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 37347
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: KERENSKY

So they got trapped by their idea to force sell the books on people.

Game should have been sold 90$, 120$ with book.
They force the book into the package and print them, but made a gesture to put a price of 100$.

Now they are trapped and cant lower the price of the digital dowload edition without raising the physical edition up to 125$.

As simple as that.

I am also convinced that they think that including books was mandatory because no one will pay 100$ for a computer games without shinies added to it.
warspite1

And this is why peeps get so frustrated with this...

Exactly how do you deduce that - and said with such certainty? You are privvy to the economics of this deal? Who gets paid what? How much ADG earn? How much Steve get's etc? You know all that do you such that you can confidently state what Matrix should sell for?

Why can't they lower the price of the Digital download without increasing the physical edition cost? Where did that come from?

And as for your last statement - well you are easily convinced wrongly. People have bought at $100 without the books and maps. I would have bought the game without - the
books and maps were a great bonus but I paid for the GAME.

Edit: Spelling

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 1/17/2014 6:39:04 PM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to KERENSKY)
Post #: 90
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