Matrix Games Forums

Battle Academy is now available on SteamPlayers compare Ageods Civil War to Civil War IIDeal of the week - An updated War in the East goes half Price!Sign up for the Qvadriga beta for iPad and Android!Come and say hi at Pax and SaluteLegends of War goes on sale!Piercing Fortress Europa Gets UpdatedBattle Academy Mega Pack is now availableClose Combat: Gateway to Caen Teaser TrailerDeal of the Week Alea Jacta Est
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Mapping Italy..

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> Scenario Design >> Mapping Italy.. Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Mapping Italy.. - 12/28/2013 2:12:19 PM   
Telumar


Posts: 1999
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: niflheim
Status: offline
.. can be a major PITA. Sometimes.

I thought i'd let you guys see what i'm working on: Mapping southern Italy at 2.5 km per hex (final aim: An 'Italy 43' scenario). The coastline is drawn, settlements along the coast are mapped and in the northern part of the map, the road net has been already drawn. The Anzio area is almost done, and right now i'm venturing into mapping the Calabrian peninsula. I'll do the southern peninsulas (Calabria, Puglia) first now and plan to work towards the north thereafter.

An overview:



And the almost finished area near Anzio - the Lepini Mountains:



Overall progress is rather slow due to the nature of the terrain. As sources i use a digitalized contemporary map for the road and rail net, here's an excerpt:



Additional sources for topography and elevations (very important for Italy) are google maps and google earth:




Suggestions, remarks, hints, critic and praise are always welcome. Maybe some of our Italian fellows might have something to add, though i don't know if Parmenio, Fabio and Damezzi are really from Italy.. I only know that JMass is, but he seems to have left TOAW.

< Message edited by Telumar -- 12/28/2013 3:12:34 PM >


_____________________________

Post #: 1
RE: Mapping Italy.. - 12/28/2013 4:48:17 PM   
parmenio

 

Posts: 194
Joined: 8/6/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

Maybe some of our Italian fellows might have something to add, though i don't know if Parmenio, Fabio and Damezzi are really from Italy..


Can't speak for the other two but aside from a predilection for Chianti my roots are firmly in the UK....

(in reply to Telumar)
Post #: 2
RE: Mapping Italy.. - 12/28/2013 11:31:04 PM   
Telumar


Posts: 1999
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: niflheim
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: parmenio


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

Maybe some of our Italian fellows might have something to add, though i don't know if Parmenio, Fabio and Damezzi are really from Italy..


Can't speak for the other two but aside from a predilection for Chianti my roots are firmly in the UK....



Pity, but good taste for vine.. :D


Been working ahead, here a part of the Calabrian "West Coast" with standard .PNG graphics for clarity:



Actually the mountain terrain should contain forest, too, but this is not possible in TOAW.

_____________________________


(in reply to parmenio)
Post #: 3
RE: Mapping Italy.. - 12/29/2013 2:47:46 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 2709
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
Nice work Telumar, I'm sure this will be awesome. What unit scale do you plan on using ?

Actually the mountain terrain should contain forest, too, but this is not possible in TOAW.

There is a file somewhere that allows you to change that. Rick (TPOO) did it in D21 for the Wilderness hexes. It may be that you can only change the name and graphic, not the actual attributes.

(in reply to Telumar)
Post #: 4
RE: Mapping Italy.. - 12/29/2013 8:27:00 PM   
Telumar


Posts: 1999
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: niflheim
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Nice work Telumar, I'm sure this will be awesome. What unit scale do you plan on using ?


Battalions, organised into Regiments/Brigades. But this is far in the future..
Luckily, the Italian Campaign is pretty good documented by/for both sides.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
Actually the mountain terrain should contain forest, too, but this is not possible in TOAW.

There is a file somewhere that allows you to change that. Rick (TPOO) did it in D21 for the Wilderness hexes. It may be that you can only change the name and graphic, not the actual attributes.


Rick used a modified version of rough sandy terrain (tiles_r_sandy) for D21 iirc. There's an other way to mix terrain that won't go together in the editor: with the exported map .xml file - Bob did something with this in his SU41 scenario.
I will have to look into terrain modding anyway as some terrain is clearly not passable for motorized units, but only for foot units.

In the meantime, i've finished the northern part of Calabria - The La Sila mountains:



(using Jmass 3.4 png mod mixed with own files for clarity)
I've added ligth woods to all hills. This shall simulate the countless olive groves, vine and other plantations.

Next is the very southern tip of the Calabrian peninsula, the Aspromonte mountains, reaching from Reggio di Calabria to the southern end of above screenshot.


< Message edited by Telumar -- 12/30/2013 12:06:25 AM >


_____________________________


(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 5
RE: Mapping Italy.. - 12/30/2013 6:21:22 AM   
Ruppich


Posts: 45
Joined: 11/2/2011
Status: offline
Looks good so far and promising!
Weitermachen der Herr!

(in reply to Telumar)
Post #: 6
RE: Mapping Italy.. - 12/30/2013 2:35:27 PM   
Telumar


Posts: 1999
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: niflheim
Status: offline
Thanks, Ruppich.

I think i'll have to delete some of the railroads in the Sila mountains as these were narrow gauge mountain railroads according to my information. Unsuitable for transport for military purpose, also probably not enough transport capacity in form of locomotives, waggons etc. I knew that the RR from Cosenza to San Giovanni in Fiore was such a narrow gauge RR, but i didn't yet know about the others.



< Message edited by Telumar -- 12/30/2013 10:16:41 PM >


_____________________________


(in reply to Ruppich)
Post #: 7
RE: Mapping Italy.. - 12/30/2013 7:41:16 PM   
ogar

 

Posts: 200
Joined: 9/6/2009
Status: offline
This is looking very nice as you begin to fill in the pieces.  I'll be interested in how you're handling the abrupt changes in elevation and terrain within one hex ('up and down !,  up ! and down !!').  Looking at the earlier snap shots, I wonder if you will include all of Sicily or just the Messina 'tricorne' ?  Also, what are the U by the Passo S. Fili ?

It is very attactive, and you only have, what 77%, 82%, 85% of the map left to complete ?  Piece of cake !

(in reply to Telumar)
Post #: 8
RE: Mapping Italy.. - 12/30/2013 8:58:42 PM   
Telumar


Posts: 1999
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: niflheim
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ogar

I'll be interested in how you're handling the abrupt changes in elevation and terrain within one hex ('up and down !,  up ! and down !!').


Within one hex? Well, i would think that is a characteristic of the terrain type. Mountainous vs Hills vs Flat (open), sometimes 'flavored' with escarpments. Note that i don't use elevation (height) as an indicator for terrain type but the actual terrain. I.e. there is an area of hills within the central La Sila Mountains:



The terrain is almost the same height above the sea as the surrounding mountains. But it does not qualify for mountainous terrain:



Note that the Lago di Cecita as shown in google maps didn't exist yet at that time.


quote:

ORIGINAL: ogar
Looking at the earlier snap shots, I wonder if you will include all of Sicily or just the Messina 'tricorne' ?  Also, what are the U by the Passo S. Fili ?


Probably only Messina as the scenario shall depict the Invsion of Italy in September 43 and the ensuing battles until Winter 43. So, no Sicily.

The "U" symbolizes a railroad tunnel. Not that this can be simulated in TOAW, it's mere chrome. Also, who knows if the next version allows modelling RR tunnels... (hint, hint..)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ogar
It is very attactive, and you only have, what 77%, 82%, 85% of the map left to complete ?  Piece of cake !



yeah.. I estimate that it took me over two hours of mere 'worktime' to do the Sila mountains and their vicinity.

< Message edited by Telumar -- 12/30/2013 9:59:10 PM >


_____________________________


(in reply to ogar)
Post #: 9
RE: Mapping Italy.. - 12/31/2013 1:03:28 AM   
Grognard


Posts: 188
Joined: 6/24/2004
From: Madison, Wisconsin
Status: offline
I'll be very interested in your progress as I've been noodling around with my "Avalanche" scenario for some time now. I'll return to it in earnest after 3.5 debuts. I've had a dickens of a time finding contemporary ('43) (or any!!!) topo maps but I have collected a fair amount of operational maps - some are quite good and detailed. There will be quite a few escarpments. Of course my biggest map issue is where woods were......

BTW - 1 km/hex - company level - 6 hour turns. I firmly believe this is the best scale as the battlefield was comparitively small, the total OOB is about 9 divisions and at 6 hour turns we're looking at less than 30.

My biggest design issue is how to treat naval support fire. Without it, Clark (what a tool) re-embarks for sure...

< Message edited by Grognard -- 12/31/2013 2:05:36 AM >


_____________________________

Find 'em, Fix 'em, & Kill 'em

(in reply to Telumar)
Post #: 10
RE: Mapping Italy.. - 1/1/2014 2:40:43 PM   
Telumar


Posts: 1999
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: niflheim
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grognard

I'll be very interested in your progress as I've been noodling around with my "Avalanche" scenario for some time now. I'll return to it in earnest after 3.5 debuts. I've had a dickens of a time finding contemporary ('43) (or any!!!) topo maps but I have collected a fair amount of operational maps - some are quite good and detailed. There will be quite a few escarpments. Of course my biggest map issue is where woods were......

BTW - 1 km/hex - company level - 6 hour turns. I firmly believe this is the best scale as the battlefield was comparitively small, the total OOB is about 9 divisions and at 6 hour turns we're looking at less than 30.

My biggest design issue is how to treat naval support fire. Without it, Clark (what a tool) re-embarks for sure...


You maybe want to look at Anzio 1km. I used multiple equipment pieces to simulate one ship. That worked pretty fine. Though it might be better to wait until 3.5 as it will offer a better naval combat engine and you would have to switch the setup if you use mine from Anzio under 3.4.

Initially i wanted to do a mere Avalanche/Salerno scenario, but the developments there were in part dependent from Monty's progress in the south. What if Monty would have been successfully delayed a bit more? Therefore i wanted to paint a bigger picture, hence the BIG map. Also, the map could be used for other scenarios too, like Operation Diadem/Buffalo. Btw, i already did a part of the Avalanche OOB at the battalion level some time back, if you like to compare it with your work, drop me a mail or a PM.

quote:

Of course my biggest map issue is where woods were.


Welcome.. indeed this is a problem! Luckily the Romans did most work for us.. and mountaineous terrain doesn't go together with forests in the TOAW map editor, so... okay this is a bit lame..
I'm leaning partially on the data i get from google earth, though there was quite some change since the 1940ies. What could help for your Avalanche scenario is to look at contemporary photos which you may find by a simple google search. You will also find photos of the Salerno battlefield, beaches etc. in this CGSC publication: http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p4013coll8/id/3987
Parlare italiano? The Italian Istituto Geografico Militare has some historical (1936) maps about this topic, i.e. this one: http://www.igmi.org/ancient/immagine.php?cod=12799 Though the scans are low res previews and it's a pain to search through their database, not only because it's in Italian. Try to look out for maps which begin with "CARTA FORESTALE DEL REGNO D'ITALIA... ". Starting page: http://www.igmi.org/ancient/.
I also found this one from 1972: http://www.mapcruzin.com/free-maps-thematic/italy_land_1972.jpg which however is only of limited use for small scale maps.

_____________________________


(in reply to Grognard)
Post #: 11
RE: Mapping Italy.. - 1/1/2014 2:59:55 PM   
Telumar


Posts: 1999
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: niflheim
Status: offline
quote:

You will also find photos of the Salerno battlefield, beaches etc. in this CGSC publication: http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p4013coll8/id/3987


Here for instance "Paestum beach" where US 36th ID landed. View towards Mount Soprano. Find the temple of Jupiter




Attachment (1)

_____________________________


(in reply to Telumar)
Post #: 12
RE: Mapping Italy.. - 1/1/2014 11:23:38 PM   
Telumar


Posts: 1999
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: niflheim
Status: offline
Used New Year's Day evening to finish the southern tip of Calabria (using again Classic Redux 2 - apologies for switching terrain graphics so often):




Attachment (1)

_____________________________


(in reply to Telumar)
Post #: 13
RE: Mapping Italy.. - 1/2/2014 7:48:11 PM   
Grognard


Posts: 188
Joined: 6/24/2004
From: Madison, Wisconsin
Status: offline
Thank you so much for the terrain leads.

quote:

You maybe want to look at Anzio 1km. I used multiple equipment pieces to simulate one ship. That worked pretty fine. Though it might be better to wait until 3.5 as it will offer a better naval combat engine and you would have to switch the setup if you use mine from Anzio under 3.4.


This is one possibility I'm considering. A 122mm battery for a destoyer (+ or - depending on the # of tubes/ship), 152mm for a cruiser etc. Placement, support level, attachment, FO's, supply, and availability need to be addressed. Samuel Eliot Morrison would seem a good place to start. And, of course, I will wait to see what 3.5 offers.

quote:

Here for instance "Paestum beach" where US 36th ID landed. View towards Mount Soprano. Find the temple of Jupiter

I actually have this pic. BTW the Paestum ruins are on my (old, old, old) GDW "Avalanche" map - Great game and a Great source.
Also another very good source I have is "Operation Avalanche" by Des Hickey & Gus Smith. I recommend it highly.

quote:

Btw, i already did a part of the Avalanche OOB at the battalion level some time back, if you like to compare it with your work, drop me a mail or a PM.

Wilco - expect a progress report about a month or two after 3.5 comes out.....

quote:

What if Monty would have been successfully delayed a bit more?

Yes, - a TO for this one. How much time have we all spent waiting for XXX Corps?

Thanks again

< Message edited by Grognard -- 1/2/2014 9:00:05 PM >


_____________________________

Find 'em, Fix 'em, & Kill 'em

(in reply to Telumar)
Post #: 14
RE: Mapping Italy.. - 1/2/2014 8:16:53 PM   
Telumar


Posts: 1999
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: niflheim
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Grognard
Samuel Eliot Morrison would seem a good place to start.


Definitely. A must read, very informative.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grognard
BTW the Paestum ruins are on my (old, old, old) GDW "Avalanche" map - Great game and a Great source.


Nice, i just looked at it at boardgamegeek.com. These days were before my time, however.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grognard
Also another very good source I have is "Operation Avalanche" by Des Hickey & Gus Smith. I recommend it highly.


Thanks, that didn't yet come to my attention.

For all things Anglo-Saxon i used "The history of the Second World War; The Mediterranean and Middle East by C. J. Molony. (London : Her Majesty's stationery Office, 1973)" very extensively for Anzio and for this project. I don't own it personally, but they have this here in my home town's university bibliotheque.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grognard
quote:

What if Monty would have been successfully delayed a bit more?

Yes, - a TO for this one. How much time have we all spent waiting for XXX Corps?


Lol..who did not?

If this project sees the light of the day somtime, the players will have to fight it out by themselves. Calabria as it looks now offers some excellent locations for delaying operations. And possibly unguarded ports for commando operations.

_____________________________


(in reply to Grognard)
Post #: 15
RE: Mapping Italy.. - 1/3/2014 9:15:24 PM   
Telumar


Posts: 1999
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: niflheim
Status: offline
Current state - made some progress into the "Basilicata":




Attachment (1)

_____________________________


(in reply to Telumar)
Post #: 16
RE: Mapping Italy.. - 2/23/2014 12:50:37 AM   
Telumar


Posts: 1999
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: niflheim
Status: offline
I'm still into this. After an excursion into OOB/TO&E things i'm back on the map. The Salentino peninsula - the rather featureless heel of the boot:



_____________________________


(in reply to Telumar)
Post #: 17
RE: Mapping Italy.. - 2/23/2014 1:20:24 AM   
Oberst_Klink

 

Posts: 1201
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

Current state - made some progress into the "Basilicata":




Sehr gut Meister! Vorwaerts immer, rueckwaerts nimmer :)
Well done, my master and tutor.

Klink, Oberst
OT: Antietam meeting with 3 TOAW'ler was jolly good.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam
(Marcus Porcius Cato Censorius)

Visit the Gefechtsstand!

(in reply to Telumar)
Post #: 18
RE: Mapping Italy.. - 2/23/2014 8:32:23 PM   
Telumar


Posts: 1999
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: niflheim
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

Klink, Oberst
OT: Antietam meeting with 3 TOAW'ler was jolly good.


Sehr gut. Fotos, stories, gossip?

_____________________________


(in reply to Oberst_Klink)
Post #: 19
RE: Mapping Italy.. - 2/23/2014 8:36:35 PM   
Telumar


Posts: 1999
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: niflheim
Status: offline
I think i need some advice, opinions here. See atatched screenshot from google maps. This is Puglia (or Apulia). Most of the terrain here looks like this and i think it's reasonable to assume it did look very similar in the 40ies (olive and fruit tree cultures), What terrain should i use, i'm really uncertain. Cropland - well, it's not actually cropland - or light woods (too few trees)? What's your opinion?




Attachment (1)

_____________________________


(in reply to Telumar)
Post #: 20
RE: Mapping Italy.. - 2/23/2014 11:31:28 PM   
ogar

 

Posts: 200
Joined: 9/6/2009
Status: offline
Some questions in return...

Does the +2 defensive modifier for infantry for "Any Forest' include Light Woods ?
How large an area (hexes) are you painting here ?
Are there significant areas of sloped ground/hills involved ?

Visually, I like Light Woods instead of Cropland - in any scenario.
They have the same movement costs, so if there's a large area, I'd consider sections of cropland, interspersed with sections of Light Woods.  If the def. modifier applies, that's another argument for a combination of sections.
If there hills involved, and defined areas of level ground, I'd put the Light Woods on the hills, and cropland on the level areas.

I also suspect that there would be less olive trees in the 1940's.  You can see the density shift in different parts of the pic above.  My guess is that density is related to 'closeness to irrigation/underground water' and also to maturity (larger trees have more room cut between them).  In the 1940's I'd guess the dense areas would be groves, where the sparse areas would be cropland.  (In those days, the olive trade was not as large as presently and the need for growing local grain crops was stronger.)

But hey, 90% Light Woods and 10% Cropland would work for me.

(in reply to Telumar)
Post #: 21
RE: Mapping Italy.. - 2/23/2014 11:33:00 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 2709
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
No advice, but I can give an opinion

If line of sight would be obscured to any degree, and off road movement is reduced, then I guess you would go with light woods.

If line of sight is good but off road movement is reduced, then I would guess the cropland would be used.

(in reply to Telumar)
Post #: 22
RE: Mapping Italy.. - 2/24/2014 12:57:06 AM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 6722
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

No advice, but I can give an opinion

If line of sight would be obscured to any degree, and off road movement is reduced, then I guess you would go with light woods.

If line of sight is good but off road movement is reduced, then I would guess the cropland would be used.


Actually, Cropland is Restricted Vision, while Light Woods is Normal Vision. So, Cropland would be worse for line-of-sight.

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 23
RE: Mapping Italy.. - 2/24/2014 3:35:20 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 116
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
Cropland is restricted vision? So a soybean field makes it hard to see the Sherman on the other side? Even a fully mature cornfield isn't tall enough to hide most MBT except maybe the hull. Infantry can hide in almost anything. Not that most crops in Europe that will keep you from easily spotting most vehicles. Fields in the winter are vastly different than fields in July or August. Nothing is growing there in the winter so how can vision be restricted? I don't seem to recall the game making provisions for time of year for crops.

I really don't see why a farmer's field restricts vision when it's so obviously crop and season dependent not to mention what type of unit.

Anyway, seems with all the roads through that terrain in the picture shouldn't be anything but clear. Not consistently enough trees or fields and the fields don't appear to be fields at all but orchards with trees lined up in nice neat rows providing decent firing lanes. Now if it were a tactical map...

< Message edited by Lobster -- 2/24/2014 4:36:42 AM >

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 24
RE: Mapping Italy.. - 2/24/2014 2:15:32 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 6722
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Cropland is restricted vision? So a soybean field makes it hard to see the Sherman on the other side? Even a fully mature cornfield isn't tall enough to hide most MBT except maybe the hull. Infantry can hide in almost anything. Not that most crops in Europe that will keep you from easily spotting most vehicles. Fields in the winter are vastly different than fields in July or August. Nothing is growing there in the winter so how can vision be restricted? I don't seem to recall the game making provisions for time of year for crops.

I really don't see why a farmer's field restricts vision when it's so obviously crop and season dependent not to mention what type of unit.


The season issue has to be handled by the designer. You don't use Cropland in a winter scenario. And Norm would tell you that TOAW wasn't designed to handle year-long scenarios. That he was ignored wouldn't matter to him. (Maybe someday there will be a version that handles it, though.) It's up to the designer to apply it to the right cases as well - corn yes, soybean no, etc.

Clearly, a field of crops is pretty restricted vision for non-vehicles (AT gun &, APGs, for example). And if you have even a little roll to the terrain, or your AFV is dug-in, that would apply to most defending AFVs, too. So, your modern MBT, with its super optics, still gets ambushed at 100m or less - losing a big part of its edge.

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 25
RE: Mapping Italy.. - 2/24/2014 3:36:59 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 116
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
I see. So then cropland in an Italian campaign might not be a good idea since it started in September. Except maybe for vineyards. It's not like they're rice fields.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 26
RE: Mapping Italy.. - 2/24/2014 5:18:28 PM   
ogar

 

Posts: 200
Joined: 9/6/2009
Status: offline
@ Curtis,
So the Light Woods Def. Modifier for Infantry is because of unrestricted vision, vs. Cropland having restricted vision, removes that advantage for the defender ?



(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 27
RE: Mapping Italy.. - 2/24/2014 7:09:09 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 6722
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ogar

@ Curtis,
So the Light Woods Def. Modifier for Infantry is because of unrestricted vision, vs. Cropland having restricted vision, removes that advantage for the defender ?


Neither Light Woods nor Cropland have any DF modifier for infantry. Also, Light Woods is Normal Vision, not Unrestricted (AKA Open Vision). I think vision type only affects AT combat via the "Chance to Hit" value. See section 19.2 in the manual.

(in reply to ogar)
Post #: 28
RE: Mapping Italy.. - 2/24/2014 7:09:32 PM   
Telumar


Posts: 1999
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: niflheim
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ogar

I also suspect that there would be less olive trees in the 1940's.  You can see the density shift in different parts of the pic above.  My guess is that density is related to 'closeness to irrigation/underground water' and also to maturity (larger trees have more room cut between them).  In the 1940's I'd guess the dense areas would be groves, where the sparse areas would be cropland.  (In those days, the olive trade was not as large as presently and the need for growing local grain crops was stronger.)



Very good points. However, agriculture has been intesified by the Fascists since 1922. Also, the absence of surface water over large areas led to the construction of the Apulian Aqueduct (1906–39). But i would think you're right about the olive trade.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ogar
If there hills involved, and defined areas of level ground, I'd put the Light Woods on the hills, and cropland on the level areas.


And this is what i did further south in Calabria. There, however, the olive/citrus/vineyard density is not as dense as in Puglia, especially not as dense as in the area northwest and west of Brindisi.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

If line of sight would be obscured to any degree, and off road movement is reduced, then I guess you would go with light woods.

If line of sight is good but off road movement is reduced, then I would guess the cropland would be used.



It was a good point until Bob showed up...

However, the manual states (19.2 - Notes on combat resolution):
quote:

Open Vision locations have no precipitation
and no terrain other than Open, Arid, Roads, Rivers, Rocky, Escarpments, Canals, or Sandy.
Restricted Vision locations have Heavy Precipitation, Heavy Cultivated, Urban, Urban Ruin, or
Forest terrain


That would leave light woods and cropland (light cultivated) as normal vision.


But maybe this contemporary photo settles the discussion..i would say that qualifies for light forest, occasionally intersected with cropland.



It's from this website: http://www.bridgepugliausa.it/articolo.asp?id_sez=1&id_cat=33&id_art=3591&lingua=en and its caption says:"Panoramic view of the plain studded with age-old olive trees that stretches between Monopoli, Fasano, Ostuni and Carovigno." The screenshot from google maps i posted earlier is from that area (roughly).

On the map this would be here (red oval):





EDIT: light woods are apparently no forest terrain - changed the according phrase in the post..

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Telumar -- 2/24/2014 8:18:42 PM >


_____________________________


(in reply to ogar)
Post #: 29
RE: Mapping Italy.. - 2/24/2014 7:14:10 PM   
Telumar


Posts: 1999
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: niflheim
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

I see. So then cropland in an Italian campaign might not be a good idea since it started in September. Except maybe for vineyards. It's not like they're rice fields.


Something to think about. Have you ever been in Italy? It's really rough. Well, not everywhere, but it is quite "vegetated".. Also note that in the Calabrian peninsula i used cropland in the plains and light woods in the hills for the usual mixture of cropland, olive and other fruit cultures and vineyards.

_____________________________


(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> Scenario Design >> Mapping Italy.. Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.109