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ASOP - 12/13/2013 12:53:29 AM   
ecz


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rules are fairly well written, but what I would see is a very detailed ASOP (Advanced Sequence Of Play) covering every possible action during a turn in strict order.
For very detailed I mean VERY detailed.
see for example this little fragment of the ASOP in ASL:

3.31A Berserk unit charges if so required (A15.43-.431; A15.45; G13.491); then go to Step 3.35D.
3.32A May move that non-TI Good Order/Mobile (or must charge with that voluntarily berserk Dare-Death) ground unit/stack after making any required Sewer dr (B8.41), Mechanical Reliability (D2.51 {Stall}),
Bog Removal (D8.3; G12.211-.212) and/or Movement/Straying (E1.53-.531; G2.22; G3.21; G13.83) DR.
May conduct Infantry OVR (A4.15-.152).
Infantry may declare Double Time for one extra MF (A4.5; place CX counter), and/or make Manhandling DR (C10.3, E5.2;
Pushing unit and Gun/Boat become TI—place Labor counter if unsuccessful).
Infantry may Place (A23.3) or Set DC (A23.7; roll US<). Personnel (etc., for LC; G12.12) may mount/dismount horse (A13.31) or vehicle (D6.4-.5; D12.2; D15.41; G12.4-.45; G13.443).




and this is another fragment of a detailed ASOP taken from ADVANCED THIRD REICH:
Initial supply determination. Determination of supply status of all units (29.42)x. Placement of free Siberian transfer units (65)xi. Movement of ground units and execution of overruns (14.8)A.
Fly ground support for overruns (26.42)B. Fly defensive air support for units being overrun (26.512)C.
Interception of defensive air support (26.44) and resolution of resulting air combat(26.6)
D. Determination of attacker casualties (14.83)E. Placement of bridgehead counters resulting from overruns (28.13)xii.
Eliminate any units still overstacked from retreat during enemy attrition option (16.56)(i) Combat phase (15, 16)i.
Attacker announces air and naval missions (26.4, 27.4)ii. Resolution of counterair missions (26.43, 26.6)iii. Resolution of air attacks on naval units in port (26.452)iv.


every action or decision the players can or must take is written in the sequence (with the rule reference).
A player could simply follow the ASOP to be sure he's not forgetting something and everything is done in the right order.
As newbie I would see this help also for WiF.


< Message edited by ecz -- 12/13/2013 2:03:00 AM >


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RE: ASOP - 12/13/2013 1:20:42 AM   
ecz


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a possible objection is that Wif is too complex to be dissected, and many subphases are rarely played.
I know if this is possibly true, but ASL has about 100 "phases" each of them has a certain number of actions and sub-actions that can be done in a specific moment and in a particular order. Not to mention about 70 "pre-game" phases, just to decide the scenario and prepare the setup. Many of them are mutually exclusive, most are rare or very rare, only a few happens at every game and at every turn. However they are all there, ready to be used when necessary.
Why WiF lacks a ultra-detailed sequence of play?

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RE: ASOP - 12/13/2013 6:21:34 AM   
jzardos


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hehe ecz you bring up some good stuff and I'm proud of you. But let's be real for a moment. Personally and for a few others I can speak for, I could give a rats ass about any detailed documentation. Heck you could have 1,000 pages of wonderful docs (MWiF gets A++ for docs and tutorials for sure), but it don't mean a pile of !&*^@ if the game just doesn't work. Been trying to play NetPlay with friend (that I duped into buying MWiF), we can't even get to end of turn 1. Probably spent 20 hrs already on it. Many crashes, certain autosaves don't work (general ones worst luck), usually finally get one to reload for us. Most of our bugs have been documented, few have been fixed so far. New ones keep coming up..

So here's where I'm at

- very frustrated about sinking $100 into game that can't be played NetPlay. Not sure solitaire works better, but didn't buy game to play solitaire. I'm ok with waiting for AI, that's not my beef.

- have friend upset with me, because I told him it would be fun

- as far as bugs, some people are willing to do all the extra postings and be 'beta testers'. That's just not something I have time for. Will report stuff as I can and if not already reported. But didn't buy game to beta test it

- as much as I want to see MWiF be a big hit and a game changer for board games making into into the computer world, just feel this game was rushed when it didn't have to be rushed. Most of us have already been waiting 5-10 years, so what was another year to get it right? Don't ever think it's a good idea to release stuff to consumers when it's know that many bugs exist. Heck, I can't image beta testers didn't see the issues my friend and I found. Not like we did anything special or unusual. Too many normal track phases just didn't work.

- so what now? Very tempted to just shelf game until version 2.0 comes out. Not sure what other people's motivation is when purchasing a 'game', but for me it's about enjoyment and fun. I really believe MWiF will be plenty of hours of fun and re-playability, but it's just not there yet for me in its current state.

- I really feel bad for Steve and others that have worked so hard on this project. If they had just been given more resources and some more time before the release. Not their fault for the bad taste in people's mouths on this game's current short-comings. I blame Matrix for the pressure and any others that were responsible for forcing this game out when it's obvious it wasn't ready. Shame on you...



< Message edited by jzardos -- 12/13/2013 7:32:11 AM >

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RE: ASOP - 12/13/2013 8:57:55 AM   
ecz


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jzardos, I'm not asking to subtract time and resources from the necessary work to make MWiF bugless.
I know the debug process has priority (BTW, thank you for the efforts to Matrix, and I wonder if Shannon is working more now with the game already published or before during the development stage).

I'm asking why no expert player has ever created such a useful tool in the past. At least I have never seen on internet a detailed (although not "official") ASOP like the ones sooner or later players created by themselves for other very complex games.


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RE: ASOP - 12/13/2013 9:44:51 AM   
ecz


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it's a question, but also a suggestion... I cannot make it by myself because I'm a complete newbie.


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RE: ASOP - 12/13/2013 11:36:48 AM   
RickInVA

 

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Well, there is a turn sequence that you can see on the Main Form (F4), looks pretty detailed to me. But I have to ask, how does this help you? When you are playing a board game, where it is possible to forget a phase, I understand the utility. In a computer game, if it is working correctly, the program runs each phase in order when it occurs. How does it help you to know ahead of time that if during an air to air combat one of the units is aborted that there is an immediate abort phase to fly it back to base? When (if) it happens you fly the plane back to base. After it happens once you know if for ever more.

Certainly you, I or anyone can want what we want and not need a reason for it. But when resources are finite I think it would help to understand the utility of a request.

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RE: ASOP - 12/13/2013 1:16:37 PM   
ecz


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May be this is not the best possibile forum to post, since you are mainly WiF players waiting to play the pc version.

I have tried to explain what I mean with "detailed" SOP. It has nothing to do with the generic scheme given in the WiF rules, useful to give a big picture of what happens in a turn but really not giving any help to the inexperienced players about things to do during the game.

I agree that in a pc game like MWiF an ASOP is not that useful, because the game should follow the SOP by itself.

But my question stands: why in so many years, at least from 2004 when WiF rules were published and assumed a stable form, none of the many experienced players out there has created an (unofficial) ASOP to share with who's approaching the game?

Let me show you what I have published years ago on BGG about ETO (SPI), another WWII wargame in which original rules were lacking a fully and exhaustive SOP, an omission causing unnecessary pain to newbies.

http://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/63258/eto-sequence-of-play-improved-enriched-and-complet

who plays his very first WiF games needs someone experienced saying him what to do and when. If both players are not very experienced a detailed SoP handy minimizes the risk something is forgotten or made not at the right moment. Besides players can constantly check what could possibly happen later in the turn. IMO this is a big help and IMO (again) any experienced player could easily create such a thing that only requires time, once the rules are well known.






< Message edited by ecz -- 12/13/2013 2:40:58 PM >


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RE: ASOP - 12/13/2013 4:53:44 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ecz

May be this is not the best possibile forum to post, since you are mainly WiF players waiting to play the pc version.

I have tried to explain what I mean with "detailed" SOP. It has nothing to do with the generic scheme given in the WiF rules, useful to give a big picture of what happens in a turn but really not giving any help to the inexperienced players about things to do during the game.

I agree that in a pc game like MWiF an ASOP is not that useful, because the game should follow the SOP by itself.

But my question stands: why in so many years, at least from 2004 when WiF rules were published and assumed a stable form, none of the many experienced players out there has created an (unofficial) ASOP to share with who's approaching the game?

Let me show you what I have published years ago on BGG about ETO (SPI), another WWII wargame in which original rules were lacking a fully and exhaustive SOP, an omission causing unnecessary pain to newbies.

http://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/63258/eto-sequence-of-play-improved-enriched-and-complet

who plays his very first WiF games needs someone experienced saying him what to do and when. If both players are not very experienced a detailed SoP handy minimizes the risk something is forgotten or made not at the right moment. Besides players can constantly check what could possibly happen later in the turn. IMO this is a big help and IMO (again) any experienced player could easily create such a thing that only requires time, once the rules are well known.






Section 7 of the Players Manual goes through the entire sequence of play, phase by phase, subphase by subphase, and sub-subphase by sub-subphase. It also describes the digressions. Scattered throughout that section are some screenshots of the dynamic sequence of play form.

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RE: ASOP - 12/13/2013 5:48:55 PM   
peskpesk


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You can se a video that goes through the sequence o play, from video tutorial 4

video tutorial 4

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RE: ASOP - 12/13/2013 6:26:11 PM   
ecz


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I think to something in double copy, one per side, typically two pages in small font, that can be held on the table near the charts and the manual with all the actions allowed in numerical order and a quick reference to the rule paragraph bracketed. Players could play checking this list item after item reading the rules only when necessary. The Players would use this ASOP as a reminder until they learn the sequence at least for all more common actions. When experience increases, It would be checked less often, and only when there are less common actions/events.
Reading the rules only when necessary also dramatically cuts the time of play. No need to go inside the manual all the times to see what can be done (and in which sequence) at a given point.

Strange enough nobody have had this idea.

When I'll find the time, I will post an example of how is currently the SoP buried the WiF rules, and how I imagine it should appear an ASOP for this game, extracted and enhaced.



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RE: ASOP - 12/13/2013 6:37:11 PM   
ecz


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if you do not need anything more the light SoP of the rules is probably because you know the rules so well that you play without omissions or errors about the sequence. Probably you do not need ANY SoP at this point.

After all I also play ASL without any help but the ASLRB ready and handy and the QRDC near the map.

But from the point of view of a newbie, a detailed SOP would help a lot during the game.


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RE: ASOP - 12/13/2013 7:04:45 PM   
paulderynck


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So section 7 of the Player's Manual is no good for your purposes?

Edit: Maybe no experienced player has yet to create an ASOP because they were scared off by trying to accommodate 79 optional rules and how many of them can cause digressions in the sequence of play. Mind you - still easier by far than programming the bulk of them.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 12/13/2013 8:08:40 PM >


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RE: ASOP - 12/13/2013 8:00:21 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ecz

I think to something in double copy, one per side, typically two pages in small font, that can be held on the table near the charts and the manual with all the actions allowed in numerical order and a quick reference to the rule paragraph bracketed. Players could play checking this list item after item reading the rules only when necessary. The Players would use this ASOP as a reminder until they learn the sequence at least for all more common actions. When experience increases, It would be checked less often, and only when there are less common actions/events.
Reading the rules only when necessary also dramatically cuts the time of play. No need to go inside the manual all the times to see what can be done (and in which sequence) at a given point.

Strange enough nobody have had this idea.

When I'll find the time, I will post an example of how is currently the SoP buried the WiF rules, and how I imagine it should appear an ASOP for this game, extracted and enhaced.



How about this?

===
TPhase = (
pSetup, // RAW 24.
pReinforcement, // RAC 4.
pLending, // RAC 5.
pInitiative, // RAC 6.
pWeather, // RAC 8.
pDeclareWar, // RAC 9.
pChooseAction, // RAC 10.
pPortAttack, // RAC 11.2.
pNavalAir, // RAC 11.3.
pNavalMovement, // RAC 11.4.
// ****************************************************************************
// RAC 11.4.6; pNavalInterception was replaced with digNavalInterception, which
// is called when moving naval units during:
// (1) phases: pNavalMovement, pReturnToBaseA, pReturnToBaseD,
// (2) digressions: digOverrun, digReturnToBase, digNavalCombatAbort.
//
// RAC 11.5.2; pNavalCombatI was replaced with code that executes only as an
// outcome of digNavalInterception.
// ****************************************************************************
pNavalCombatA, // RAC 11.5.
pNavalCombatD, // RAC 11.6.
pStrategicBombardment, // RAC 11.7.
pCarpetBombing, // RAC 11.8.
pGroundStrike, // RAC 11.9.
pRailMovement, // RAC 11.10.
pLandMovement, // RAC 11.11.
pAirTransport, // RAC 11.12.
pUnloadLandUnits, // RAC 11.13.
pInvasion, // RAC 11.14.
pParadrop, // RAC 11.15.
pLandCombatDeclaration, // RAC 11.16.1.
pIgnoreNotional, // RAC 11.14.
pEmergencyHQSupply, // RAC 2.4.3.
pShoreBombardmentD, // RAC 11.16.2.
pShoreBombardmentA, // RAC 11.16.2.
pHQSupportD, // RAC 11.16.3.
pHQSupportA, // RAC 11.16.3.
pGroundSupport, // RAC 11.16.4.
pLandCombatResolution, // RAC 11.16.5 & 11.16.6.
pAirRebase, // RAC 11.17.
pAirReorganization, // RAC 11.18.1.
pHQReorganization, // RAC 11.18.2.
pTRSSupply, // RAC 11.18.3.
pEndOfAction, // RAC 12.
pPartisan, // RAC 13.1.
pEntry, // RAC 13.2.
pUSEntry, // RAC 13.3.
pProdPlanningPrelim, // RAC 13.6.1 & 13.6.2.
pStayAtSeaA, // RAC 13.4.
pStayAtSeaD, // RAC 13.4.
pReturnToBaseA, // RAC 13.4.
pReturnToBaseD, // RAC 13.4.
pUseOil, // RAC 13.5.1.
pFinalReorganization, // RAC 13.5.
pBreakDown, // RAC 22.4.1.
pProdPlanningFinal, // RAC 13.6.1 & 13.6.2.
pSearchAndSeizure, // RAC 13.6.1.
pScrapDestroyed, // RAC 13.6.9.
pNavalRepair, // RAC 13.6.5.
pProduction, // RAC 13.6.3 -> 13.6.9.
pReform, // RAC 22.4.1.
pIntelligence, // RAC 22.1.
pUkraine, // RAC 19.12.
pConquest, // RAC 13.7.1.
pMinorSupport, // RAC 13.7.2.
pMutualPeace, // RAC 13.7.3.
pVichy, // RAC 13.7.4.
pLiberation, // RAC 13.7.5.
pSurrender, // RAC 13.7.6.
pFactoryDestruction, // RAC 22.2.
pVictory, // RAC 13.8.
pGameEnd, // RAC 13.8 & RAW 30.
pQuit, pNone);

TPhaseSet = set of TPhase;
TSubPhaseType = (sptReinforce, sptDOW, sptAir, sptNC, sptLCR, sptVichy);
// ****************************************************************************
// Setup SubPhases.
// ****************************************************************************
TSetupSubPhase = (suspLendLease, suspMajorPowers, suspPartisans);
// ****************************************************************************
// Reinforcement SubPhases.
// ****************************************************************************
TReinforceSubPhase = (
RspAnnualAdds, // RAC 4.1.1 & 4.1.2.
RspScrap, // RAC 4.1.3.
RspReplacements, // RAC 4.1.4.
RspAirReserve, // RAC 14.6.1.
RspPlaceUnits, // RAC 4.2.
RspRemoveAir, // RAC 14.6.1.
RspDone, RspWait);
// ****************************************************************************
// DOW SubPhases.
// ****************************************************************************
TDOWSubPhase = (
DspDOWMajor, // RAC 9.2 & 9.3.
DspDOWMinor, // RAC 9.2, 9.3, 9.10, & 13.3.2 (#7 & #44).
DspUSEntry, // RAC 9.4.
DspNeutralityPacts, // RAC 9.5.
DspReserves, // RAC 9.6.
DspChooseAligner, // RAC 9.7.
DspSetupAttackedMinor, // RAC 9.7.
DspAlignMinor, // RAC 9.8.
DspSetupAlignedMinor, // RAC 9.8.
DspDone, DspWait);
// ****************************************************************************
// Air subphases are for air missions; some air missions do not use all
// subphases.
// ****************************************************************************
TAirSubPhase = (
AspCAP, // RAC 14.2.1.
AspFlyA, // RAC 14.2.2, 14.2.3, & 14.2.1.
AspFlyD, // RAC 14.2.2, 14.2.3, & 14.2.1.
AspInterceptD, // RAC 14.2.1.
AspInterceptA, // RAC 14.2.1.
AspSurprise, // RAC 11.5.6.
AspAirAir, // RAC 14.3.
AspAntiAirD, // RAC 11.5.9.
AspAntiAirA, // RAC 11.5.9.
AspAttack, // RAC 11.5.9, 11.7, 11.8, 11.9, 11.12, 11.15,
// 11.16.4, & 11.8.1.
AspReturnA, // RAC 14.2.
AspReturnD, // RAC 14.2.
AspNone, AspDone);
// ****************************************************************************
// Air-to-air combat sub-subphases.
// ****************************************************************************
TA2ASubSubPhase = (
sspLocation, // RAC 14.3.
sspArrange, // RAC 14.3.1.
sspRollDef, // RAC 14.3.2.
ssp1stUnit, // RAC 14.3.3.
ssp1stDisposition, // RAC 14.3.3.
sspRollAtt, // RAC 14.3.2.
ssp2ndUnit, // RAC 14.3.3.
ssp2ndDisposition, // RAC 14.3.3.
sspAttAbortStay, // RAC 14.3.2.
sspDefAbortStay, // RAC 14.3.2.
sspBothStaying // RAC 14.3.2.
);
// ****************************************************************************
// Naval Movement Occasions.
// 1 - Most naval movement occurs during regular game phases. If a naval
// interception occurs to one of these naval moves, then after the digression is
// over, the program restores the deciding major powers to what they were
// previously, restores the MovingStack for each player to what it was before
// the naval interception, enables the end of phase button (if the local major
// power is deciding), and then calls CentralControlOn. This should restore the
// game state to what it was before the naval interception occurred.
// 2 - Some naval movement is caused by forced rebases due to 'overruns'. When
// these naval interception digressions are completed, the program performs the
// same steps as for #1 above and also restores the working variables for the
// Overrun digression.
// 3 - Lastly, some naval movement is caused by naval units aborting from a
// naval combat, due to either a voluntary abort at the end of a naval combat
// round or an adverse combat result. On these occasions, once the naval
// interception digression is over, the program performs the same steps as for
// overruns (see #2) except it is the working variables for the CombatAbort
// digression that are restored.
// 4 - Note that the only other time naval units move is during the Vichy
// subphase vspMoveFrenchAtSea, but those naval moves can not be intercepted.
// ****************************************************************************
TNavalMovementOccasions = (NMOCurrentPhase, NMOOverrun, NMONavalCombatAbort);
// ****************************************************************************
// Naval combat subphases.
// ****************************************************************************
TNavalCombatSubPhase = (
NCspChooseSeaArea, // RAC 11.5.2.
NCspNavalAirSupportA, // RAC 11.5.3.
NCspNavalAirSupportD, // RAC 11.5.3.
NCspCommitSubs, // RAC 11.5.4.
NCspSearch, // RAC 11.5.5.
NCspWaltherAbort, // RAC 22.4.19.
NCspIncludeSeaBoxes, // RAC 11.5.5.
NCspIncludeUSUnits, // RAC 13.3.2, US Entry Option #32.
NCspSurprise, // RAC 11.5.6.
NCspChooseType, // RAC 11.5.7 & 11.5.6.
NCspAirAir, // RAC 11.5.9 & 11.5.6.
NCspKamikaze, // RAC 14.8.
NCspAntiAirD, // RAC 11.5.9 & 11.5.6.
NCspAntiAirA, // RAC 11.5.9 & 11.5.6.
NCspNavalAirA, // RAC 11.5.9 & 11.5.6.
NCspNavalAirD, // RAC 11.5.9 & 11.5.6.
NCspASWPreFireD, // RAC 22.4.19.
NCspASWPreFireA, // RAC 22.4.19.
NCspSurfaceA, // RAC 11.5.8 & 11.5.6.
NCspSurfaceD, // RAC 11.5.8 & 11.5.6.
NCspASWD, // RAC 11.5.10, 22.4.19, & 11.5.6.
NCspSubA, // RAC 11.5.10 & 11.5.6.
NCspASWA, // RAC 11.5.10, 22.4.19, & 11.5.6.
NCspSubD, // RAC 11.5.10 & 11.5.6.
NCspEndRound, // RAC 11.5.11.
NCspAbortA, // RAC 11.5.11 (voluntary abort by attacker).
NCspAbortD, // RAC 11.5.11 (voluntary abort by defender).
NCspNextRound // RAC 11.5.11.
);
// ****************************************************************************
// Land combat resolution subphases.
// ****************************************************************************
TLandCombatResSubPhase = (
LCRspLandCombatSelection, // RAC 11.16.5.
LCRspDefSnowUnits, // RAC 8.2.7.
LCRspAttSnowUnits, // RAC 8.2.7.
LCRspChooseCombatType, // RAC 11.16.5 & 11.16.6.
LCRspLandCombatResolution, // RAC 11.16.5 & 11.16.6.
LCRspAssignLosses, // RAC 11.16.5.
LCRspConvertShattered, // RAC 11.16.5.
LCRspHexControl, // RAC 11.11.6 (overruns)
LCRspRetreats, // RAC 11.16.5.
LCRspAdvanceAfterCombat // RAC 11.16.5.
// LCRRspDisorganize // RAC 11.16.5.
);
// ****************************************************************************
// Vichy subphases.
// ****************************************************************************
TVichySubPhase = (
vspControl, // RAC 17.2.
vspMoveNonFrenchLandAir, // RAC 17.3 para 1, nearest by owning major power.
vspMoveNonFrenchNaval, // RAC 17.3 para 2, nearest by owning major power.
vspMoveFrenchAtSea, // RAC 17.3 para 3, nearest by Vichy controller.
vspMoveFrenchLandAirAxis, // RAC 17.3 para 4, nearest by Vichy controller.
vspMoveFrenchNavalAxis, // RAC 17.3 para 4, nearest by Vichy controller.
vspDestroyFrench, // RAC 17.3 para 5 (Allied player choice).
vspMoveFrenchLandAirAllied, // RAC 17.3 para 5, nearest by Vichy controller.
vspMoveFrenchNavalAllied, // RAC 17.3 para 5, nearest by Vichy controller.
vspProduction, // RAC 17.3 para 6, by Vichy controller.
vspSetup, // RAC 17.3 para 6, by Vichy controller.
vspMoveFrenchVichy, // RAC 17.3 para 7, by Vichy controller.
vspUnitControl, // RAC 17.3 para 8 - 11.
vspConquerFrance);
// ****************************************************************************
// TDigression types are digressions from the main sequence of play that may
// occur at different places in the sequence of play.
// ****************************************************************************
TDigression = (digRelocate, digOverrun, digReturnToBase, digNavalInterception,
digNavalCombatAbort, digFixOverstacking, digCollapseVichy);


===

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to ecz)
Post #: 13
RE: ASOP - 12/13/2013 8:28:48 PM   
jhdeerslayer


Posts: 1180
Joined: 5/25/2002
From: Michigan
Status: offline
Myself I hate reading through game SOP other than a general understanding. I go for the rules and just picking up the game and then back to the rules again. This game takes you right through the SOP automatically anyway without having to worry so much about it. I think it's a totally personal perspective for the detail ECZ wants and everybody has a different way to learn the game. My two cents...

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(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 14
RE: ASOP - 12/13/2013 11:25:53 PM   
ecz


Posts: 24
Joined: 7/8/2002
From: Italy
Status: offline
if a detailed SoP has been possible for Advanced Squad Leader any game can have its own detailed SoP. But I admit that this need it's a subjective need, since WiF has been learned/played without it for decades.

I'll manage to play without. Or I'll create one by myself.




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VASLeague TD
VASLeague@gmail.com

(in reply to jhdeerslayer)
Post #: 15
RE: ASOP - 12/14/2013 1:52:02 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 21120
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ecz

if a detailed SoP has been possible for Advanced Squad Leader any game can have its own detailed SoP. But I admit that this need it's a subjective need, since WiF has been learned/played without it for decades.

I'll manage to play without. Or I'll create one by myself.




The SOP I listed in post #13 is what the program uses. It matches section 7 of the Players Manual. I really don't know what more you are looking for.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to ecz)
Post #: 16
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