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Convince Me

 
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Convince Me - 12/12/2013 10:21:33 AM   
tocaff


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As I edge closer to starting my first GC I find myself confronted with the following choice: Should I go with Vanilla or a Mod? For instance DaBig Babes C seems quite popular and it raises questions for me. What I want to know is from those of you that've played and have the experience, what're your thoughts on the matter.

Remember that this'll be my first foray into the AE GC as I'm late migrating from WITP. I've spent lots of time playing the short scenarios, from both sides, and I'm fairly confident that I'm ready to get thumped.

Please share your thoughts.

_____________________________

Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forum/tm.asp?m=2080768
Post #: 1
RE: Convince Me - 12/12/2013 10:29:43 AM   
Bo Rearguard


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Will this game be against a human opponent or the AI?

It's often been stated that DaBig Babes C wasn't really meant for AI play. But people are using it anyway. It does seem that toning down the cargo capability of everyone's merchant marine would go a long way toward slowing down the tempo of the game and keeping one from running roughshod over the AI. (The AI will still make dumb moves, but maybe you won't be able to exploit them as quick)

(in reply to tocaff)
Post #: 2
RE: Convince Me - 12/12/2013 11:14:01 AM   
tocaff


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This will be a PBEM, an electron bloodbath between humans.

_____________________________

Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forum/tm.asp?m=2080768

(in reply to Bo Rearguard)
Post #: 3
RE: Convince Me - 12/12/2013 11:24:17 AM   
JeffK


Posts: 5111
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Did you play WITP vanilla or accept that most mods were a vast improvement??

Same goes here!

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Post #: 4
RE: Convince Me - 12/12/2013 12:24:43 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 17831
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I avoid all mods of this game, as they are not subject to the same predictable update / repair / patch protocols that Matrix/Slytherine products are. Additionally, while some of the changes made in these mods seem intriguing and useful, others seem arbitrary and capricious. Your mileage may vary, but those are my thoughts.

_____________________________


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Post #: 5
RE: Convince Me - 12/12/2013 2:45:51 PM   
crsutton


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CB has a point in that a campaign with a human opponent is a multi-year investment. If it was my first, I would play stock. I am beginning me second campaign playing Da Babes. Only because I wanted to try something different. In the end, I promise that you will have a hell of a lot of fun if you opt to stay with stock.

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Post #: 6
RE: Convince Me - 12/12/2013 6:08:21 PM   
ny59giants


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Regardless of which way you decide, I would definitively go with stacking limits. Get the modified PWHEX files from DBB website. I playing DBB 30 (Jan '44) and RA (which is based on DBB). I prefer this vs stock, But it is my opinion. There is the recent changes in airframe performance data that is still to used by enough players to go one way or another. I like the "C" versions with the reduced cargo capacity. It effects both sides and makes the early months of the war slower. I think Japan needs to value her merchant fleet more and this does so.

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Post #: 7
RE: Convince Me - 12/12/2013 6:34:49 PM   
AW1Steve


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As I said before (in private). Obviously this totally meshes with CB and CR. Learn the basic game 1st. Then go ahead and get all fancy.

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"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 8
RE: Convince Me - 12/13/2013 2:08:45 AM   
Miller


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Stock is far from perfect but works well enough for me. All the WITP mods I tried fixed one thing but broke two others in the process. Just my 2c.....

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Post #: 9
RE: Convince Me - 12/13/2013 3:50:17 AM   
John 3rd


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Stock for the 1st PBEM.


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Post #: 10
RE: Convince Me - 12/13/2013 4:08:13 AM   
JocMeister

 

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I´m playing a stock game and a DBB-L. Only one regret...that I didn´t go full DBB-C.

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Post #: 11
RE: Convince Me - 12/13/2013 9:06:42 AM   
tocaff


Posts: 4623
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I've decided that I'm going to stick with Vanilla for my first GC. This is not a knock against the mods as what they offer is very interesting, just my shying away from more.

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Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forum/tm.asp?m=2080768

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 12
RE: Convince Me - 12/13/2013 9:54:22 AM   
Puhis

 

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I suggest you use updated vanilla scenarios. There's not many changes, but AA and ASW tweaks are good ones.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3198064

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Post #: 13
RE: Convince Me - 12/13/2013 12:05:18 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

I suggest you use updated vanilla scenarios. There's not many changes, but AA and ASW tweaks are good ones.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3198064


Cliff and I are playing this version of stock and the AA changes in particular are nice. We aren't in the Super-E era yet, but I'm looking forward to it not being Japan-Super.

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Post #: 14
RE: Convince Me - 12/13/2013 1:48:55 PM   
offenseman


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I'd go with stock and add the updates to the current beta. 1123u. One's first GC is a daunting task and DBB-C reduced cargo and AS might make one's first GC a very frustrating event. Especially so for Japan as to some extent the Allies can learn on the job. Japan has to have its ducks in a row on 12/7/41.

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Post #: 15
RE: Convince Me - 12/13/2013 5:15:59 PM   
Symon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
I avoid all mods of this game, as they are not subject to the same predictable update / repair / patch protocols that Matrix/Slytherine products are. Additionally, while some of the changes made in these mods seem intriguing and useful, others seem arbitrary and capricious. Your mileage may vary, but those are my thoughts.

This is funny, in a way. Sad, in a way, too. But here’s a teensy history lesson. WiTP-AE was developed by Henderson Field Designs, not Matrix/Slitherine. Matrix graciously offered to market the game, but it was a HFD product (Erik Rutins provided a great deal of input to various aspects, but as a participant).

Matrix did not make WiTP-AE, Matrix marketed WiTP-AE after HFD developed it. So what is “official”?

The AE game was introduced in 2009. There were some things that the HFD designers couldn’t get done in time for release, so they were incorporated into the comprehensive update, 1008r9. The point is, it’s OUR game. It’s not Matrix’ it’s HFD’s.

Any support that Matrix (michaelm) gives to this game is from the perspective of HFD developers. Much of what michaelm has done is buried within the code in support of HFD development requests.

Some people won’t do anything unless it has “official” Matrix commercial approval. That’s fine, more power to them. But this game belongs to HFD, not Matrix, and if we (HFD) want to tweak it, we will do so without a “by your leave”.

Suggest you look at the provenence of mods before you spew.

[ed] Your wanting to be "official" is nice, but you must realize that, in terms of AE, "official" is what HFD says is "official", not Matrix. Matrix won't do anything to update the game because the AE community is doing this already on their own nickel. If you want to play a few generations back, it's up to you.

< Message edited by Symon -- 12/13/2013 6:34:25 PM >


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RE: Convince Me - 12/13/2013 9:15:00 PM   
JeffK


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Thanks for the little heads up about the games history'

I like the various comment about wanting to play "vanilla" but with mods added.

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Post #: 17
RE: Convince Me - 12/13/2013 10:59:28 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 568
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
I avoid all mods of this game, as they are not subject to the same predictable update / repair / patch protocols that Matrix/Slytherine products are. Additionally, while some of the changes made in these mods seem intriguing and useful, others seem arbitrary and capricious. Your mileage may vary, but those are my thoughts.

This is funny, in a way. Sad, in a way, too. But here’s a teensy history lesson. WiTP-AE was developed by Henderson Field Designs, not Matrix/Slitherine. Matrix graciously offered to market the game, but it was a HFD product (Erik Rutins provided a great deal of input to various aspects, but as a participant).

Matrix did not make WiTP-AE, Matrix marketed WiTP-AE after HFD developed it. So what is “official”?

The AE game was introduced in 2009. There were some things that the HFD designers couldn’t get done in time for release, so they were incorporated into the comprehensive update, 1008r9. The point is, it’s OUR game. It’s not Matrix’ it’s HFD’s.

Any support that Matrix (michaelm) gives to this game is from the perspective of HFD developers. Much of what michaelm has done is buried within the code in support of HFD development requests.

Some people won’t do anything unless it has “official” Matrix commercial approval. That’s fine, more power to them. But this game belongs to HFD, not Matrix, and if we (HFD) want to tweak it, we will do so without a “by your leave”.

Suggest you look at the provenence of mods before you spew.

[ed] Your wanting to be "official" is nice, but you must realize that, in terms of AE, "official" is what HFD says is "official", not Matrix. Matrix won't do anything to update the game because the AE community is doing this already on their own nickel. If you want to play a few generations back, it's up to you.


The tendancy for people to stick with "offical" is normally due to the fact that offical versions normally undergo testing prior to being released. That's not the case with the HFD tinkering with the design and hoping everything works as intended.

To be blunt, Matrix has to have a system of quality control in place for updates. Henderson Field doesn't, and beyond the efforts of a sole individual, there isn't any quality control for updates.

(in reply to Symon)
Post #: 18
RE: Convince Me - 12/14/2013 12:03:35 AM   
witpqs

 

Posts: 14496
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
I avoid all mods of this game, as they are not subject to the same predictable update / repair / patch protocols that Matrix/Slytherine products are. Additionally, while some of the changes made in these mods seem intriguing and useful, others seem arbitrary and capricious. Your mileage may vary, but those are my thoughts.

This is funny, in a way. Sad, in a way, too. But here’s a teensy history lesson. WiTP-AE was developed by Henderson Field Designs, not Matrix/Slitherine. Matrix graciously offered to market the game, but it was a HFD product (Erik Rutins provided a great deal of input to various aspects, but as a participant).

Matrix did not make WiTP-AE, Matrix marketed WiTP-AE after HFD developed it. So what is “official”?

The AE game was introduced in 2009. There were some things that the HFD designers couldn’t get done in time for release, so they were incorporated into the comprehensive update, 1008r9. The point is, it’s OUR game. It’s not Matrix’ it’s HFD’s.

Any support that Matrix (michaelm) gives to this game is from the perspective of HFD developers. Much of what michaelm has done is buried within the code in support of HFD development requests.

Some people won’t do anything unless it has “official” Matrix commercial approval. That’s fine, more power to them. But this game belongs to HFD, not Matrix, and if we (HFD) want to tweak it, we will do so without a “by your leave”.

Suggest you look at the provenence of mods before you spew.

[ed] Your wanting to be "official" is nice, but you must realize that, in terms of AE, "official" is what HFD says is "official", not Matrix. Matrix won't do anything to update the game because the AE community is doing this already on their own nickel. If you want to play a few generations back, it's up to you.


The tendancy for people to stick with "offical" is normally due to the fact that offical versions normally undergo testing prior to being released. That's not the case with the HFD tinkering with the design and hoping everything works as intended.

To be blunt, Matrix has to have a system of quality control in place for updates. Henderson Field doesn't, and beyond the efforts of a sole individual, there isn't any quality control for updates.

Would you care to elaborate how that relates to AE?

_____________________________

Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/site/staffmonkeys/

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 19
RE: Convince Me - 12/14/2013 12:08:38 AM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 568
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
I avoid all mods of this game, as they are not subject to the same predictable update / repair / patch protocols that Matrix/Slytherine products are. Additionally, while some of the changes made in these mods seem intriguing and useful, others seem arbitrary and capricious. Your mileage may vary, but those are my thoughts.

This is funny, in a way. Sad, in a way, too. But here’s a teensy history lesson. WiTP-AE was developed by Henderson Field Designs, not Matrix/Slitherine. Matrix graciously offered to market the game, but it was a HFD product (Erik Rutins provided a great deal of input to various aspects, but as a participant).

Matrix did not make WiTP-AE, Matrix marketed WiTP-AE after HFD developed it. So what is “official”?

The AE game was introduced in 2009. There were some things that the HFD designers couldn’t get done in time for release, so they were incorporated into the comprehensive update, 1008r9. The point is, it’s OUR game. It’s not Matrix’ it’s HFD’s.

Any support that Matrix (michaelm) gives to this game is from the perspective of HFD developers. Much of what michaelm has done is buried within the code in support of HFD development requests.

Some people won’t do anything unless it has “official” Matrix commercial approval. That’s fine, more power to them. But this game belongs to HFD, not Matrix, and if we (HFD) want to tweak it, we will do so without a “by your leave”.

Suggest you look at the provenence of mods before you spew.

[ed] Your wanting to be "official" is nice, but you must realize that, in terms of AE, "official" is what HFD says is "official", not Matrix. Matrix won't do anything to update the game because the AE community is doing this already on their own nickel. If you want to play a few generations back, it's up to you.


The tendancy for people to stick with "offical" is normally due to the fact that offical versions normally undergo testing prior to being released. That's not the case with the HFD tinkering with the design and hoping everything works as intended.

To be blunt, Matrix has to have a system of quality control in place for updates. Henderson Field doesn't, and beyond the efforts of a sole individual, there isn't any quality control for updates.

Would you care to elaborate how that relates to AE?


Somebody went to Matrix and said "This is what we've got, it fixes X, Y and Z and it doesn't cause any new problems. It's offical."

Matrix then put it up on thier site as a offical update.

That's not happened with the beta's, has it?

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 20
RE: Convince Me - 12/14/2013 12:10:30 AM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 17831
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon
If you want to play a few generations back, it's up to you.


You're right, 'tis. Thanks for your leave.

I've as much interest in the provenance minutiae as I care to have with the different logos that pop up on my screen. Matrix, 2x2, Henderson Field-they're all represented. The percentage FT effort afforded by the varying stakeholders is not particularly interesting to me.

"Before I spew"? Nice.

_____________________________


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Post #: 21
RE: Convince Me - 12/14/2013 12:10:54 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 3633
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
I avoid all mods of this game, as they are not subject to the same predictable update / repair / patch protocols that Matrix/Slytherine products are. Additionally, while some of the changes made in these mods seem intriguing and useful, others seem arbitrary and capricious. Your mileage may vary, but those are my thoughts.

This is funny, in a way. Sad, in a way, too. But here’s a teensy history lesson. WiTP-AE was developed by Henderson Field Designs, not Matrix/Slitherine. Matrix graciously offered to market the game, but it was a HFD product (Erik Rutins provided a great deal of input to various aspects, but as a participant).

Matrix did not make WiTP-AE, Matrix marketed WiTP-AE after HFD developed it. So what is “official”?

The AE game was introduced in 2009. There were some things that the HFD designers couldn’t get done in time for release, so they were incorporated into the comprehensive update, 1008r9. The point is, it’s OUR game. It’s not Matrix’ it’s HFD’s.

Any support that Matrix (michaelm) gives to this game is from the perspective of HFD developers. Much of what michaelm has done is buried within the code in support of HFD development requests.

Some people won’t do anything unless it has “official” Matrix commercial approval. That’s fine, more power to them. But this game belongs to HFD, not Matrix, and if we (HFD) want to tweak it, we will do so without a “by your leave”.

Suggest you look at the provenence of mods before you spew.

[ed] Your wanting to be "official" is nice, but you must realize that, in terms of AE, "official" is what HFD says is "official", not Matrix. Matrix won't do anything to update the game because the AE community is doing this already on their own nickel. If you want to play a few generations back, it's up to you.


The tendancy for people to stick with "offical" is normally due to the fact that offical versions normally undergo testing prior to being released. That's not the case with the HFD tinkering with the design and hoping everything works as intended.

To be blunt, Matrix has to have a system of quality control in place for updates. Henderson Field doesn't, and beyond the efforts of a sole individual, there isn't any quality control for updates.


You know this to be true; that Henderson Field doesn't have quality control for updates.

Perhaps the following regarding Henderson Field has escaped your notice.

1. The key Henderson Field developers (and yes it is more than a one man band) develop and support their product for CPX players who operate in a different universe, quite out of sight to the vast majority of AE forum posters.

2. The small scale scenarios of the DaBabes family were initially developed for and tested by the CPX players before general release to the AE community. Conceptually there is no real difference between the small scale and GCs of the DaBabes family. The differences exist in areas of scale and "graininess", not in how devices operate.

3. The one man band you refer to I presume is Symon. He is quite active on the modders sub forum and provides his proposed data changes there publicly, and to various trusted individuals privately. His progress work is therefore subject to input from serious modders who understand how the code operates. That sounds a lot like quality control to me.

A perusal of the threads in the modders sub forum, going back a number of years, will be quite the education.

Alfred

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 22
RE: Convince Me - 12/14/2013 12:12:57 AM   
witpqs

 

Posts: 14496
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
I avoid all mods of this game, as they are not subject to the same predictable update / repair / patch protocols that Matrix/Slytherine products are. Additionally, while some of the changes made in these mods seem intriguing and useful, others seem arbitrary and capricious. Your mileage may vary, but those are my thoughts.

This is funny, in a way. Sad, in a way, too. But here’s a teensy history lesson. WiTP-AE was developed by Henderson Field Designs, not Matrix/Slitherine. Matrix graciously offered to market the game, but it was a HFD product (Erik Rutins provided a great deal of input to various aspects, but as a participant).

Matrix did not make WiTP-AE, Matrix marketed WiTP-AE after HFD developed it. So what is “official”?

The AE game was introduced in 2009. There were some things that the HFD designers couldn’t get done in time for release, so they were incorporated into the comprehensive update, 1008r9. The point is, it’s OUR game. It’s not Matrix’ it’s HFD’s.

Any support that Matrix (michaelm) gives to this game is from the perspective of HFD developers. Much of what michaelm has done is buried within the code in support of HFD development requests.

Some people won’t do anything unless it has “official” Matrix commercial approval. That’s fine, more power to them. But this game belongs to HFD, not Matrix, and if we (HFD) want to tweak it, we will do so without a “by your leave”.

Suggest you look at the provenence of mods before you spew.

[ed] Your wanting to be "official" is nice, but you must realize that, in terms of AE, "official" is what HFD says is "official", not Matrix. Matrix won't do anything to update the game because the AE community is doing this already on their own nickel. If you want to play a few generations back, it's up to you.


The tendancy for people to stick with "offical" is normally due to the fact that offical versions normally undergo testing prior to being released. That's not the case with the HFD tinkering with the design and hoping everything works as intended.

To be blunt, Matrix has to have a system of quality control in place for updates. Henderson Field doesn't, and beyond the efforts of a sole individual, there isn't any quality control for updates.

Would you care to elaborate how that relates to AE?


Somebody went to Matrix and said "This is what we've got, it fixes X, Y and Z and it doesn't cause any new problems. It's offical."

Matrix then put it up on thier site as a offical update.

That's not happened with the beta's, has it?

You said this: "To be blunt, Matrix has to have a system of quality control in place for updates."

But what you describe has nothing to do with "a system of quality control".

_____________________________

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(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 23
RE: Convince Me - 12/14/2013 7:26:01 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4519
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
Somebody went to Matrix and said "This is what we've got, it fixes X, Y and Z and it doesn't cause any new problems. It's offical."

Matrix then put it up on thier site as a offical update.

That's not happened with the beta's, has it?


Surprize. It has. More than once already. After playtesting by the community which is clearly not related to Matrixgames except by owning at least one of the published games.

All the actions attributed to quality control - with the sole exception of uploading a file labelled 'official patch' and publishing a link - are done by Michael, the members of the DBB team (many ex-Hendersons) and the community. Not by Matrixgames.

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 12/14/2013 8:31:20 AM >


_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

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Post #: 24
RE: Convince Me - 12/14/2013 9:47:08 AM   
tocaff


Posts: 4623
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline
Let's not get heated up on this.

I've come to like what I was scared of in the past. The reason I asked about Vanilla v Mods was that many added features make things more complicated and this will be my first venture into a GC. I really don't want to deal with lots of small craft that might or might not have impact on my game. I like stacking limitations. Cargo loads being reduced to slow down the pace is good, but size of ports and what can be docked does that too. The arguments pro and con can go on and on.

That being said I don't care who controls what about the game as we all know that the continued support is from within our own ranks. This community is unique and that's part of what makes this such a special place and game.

So since I've decided to stick with Vanilla, the latest and greatest incarnation of it, what I now need to find is a JFB to punish me for my inevitable mistakes so that I learn. Then, if I'm still breathing, I might step into the mod arena.

_____________________________

Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forum/tm.asp?m=2080768

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 25
RE: Convince Me - 12/14/2013 3:46:42 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4519
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
Good decision IMHO. The vanilla campaign works well enough for a first.

And you are right, DBB adds a lot of small craft and unit composition/complexity to the game, which means more planning and more work. All have their use, so neglecting it limits your own capabilities. Start with vanilla, if you have played through it once you can still use the braincells freed up by experience to watch over the new toys of DBB in case you like to give it a go.

_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

(in reply to tocaff)
Post #: 26
RE: Convince Me - 12/14/2013 4:30:08 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1321
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
The tendancy for people to stick with "offical" is normally due to the fact that offical versions normally undergo testing prior to being released. That's not the case with the HFD tinkering with the design and hoping everything works as intended.

To be blunt, Matrix has to have a system of quality control in place for updates. Henderson Field doesn't, and beyond the efforts of a sole individual, there isn't any quality control for updates.

Ah ... but alas, that's not so. Quality control for WiTPAE is owned and operated by Henderson Field Designs. It is our game. The "official" comprehensive updates were the result of HFD people working on this-and-that, that couldn't be done in time for the commercial release, but contained things the we "felt" needed to be done.

The Matrix "official" comprehensive updates include much work from the original Babes scenarios. Babes was devised as a set of test-bed scenarios that could be modified at will without impacting the 1-25 stock scenario restrictions. Matrix does not issue constant comprehensive updates. They are a commercial enterprise that markets a product. Continuing costs for continuing tweaking is not part of the financial model. What you see from Matrix, now, is what you get, forever and ever, Amen.

When marketing was finished, Matrix washed their hands. But HFD is still involved and does things under another label for the user community. Michaelm was granted an exclusive license, by Matrix, to maintain and adapt the WiTPAE executable code for private (beta) bug fixes and "adaptations", so long as adaptations DO NOT impact the stock executable system. Michaelm has worked closely with other HFD members to incorporate their tweaks, while keeping utterly Kosher with his brief.

Matrix is done with this title. HFD is still pushing the envelope. Since it's our game, we can do this. Quality control is, was, and always will be, in US. Smell the roses.

[ed] Alfred, thank you for your comments. As you know, none of us were ever computer game designers. We were (and still are) just people with an interest in the genre, and who can use this as a vehicle. I think we did a damn good job of it and any extensions are within the original concept.

Ciao. J

< Message edited by Symon -- 12/14/2013 5:51:12 PM >


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(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 27
RE: Convince Me - 12/14/2013 9:37:58 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 568
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
The tendancy for people to stick with "offical" is normally due to the fact that offical versions normally undergo testing prior to being released. That's not the case with the HFD tinkering with the design and hoping everything works as intended.

To be blunt, Matrix has to have a system of quality control in place for updates. Henderson Field doesn't, and beyond the efforts of a sole individual, there isn't any quality control for updates.

Ah ... but alas, that's not so. Quality control for WiTPAE is owned and operated by Henderson Field Designs. It is our game. The "official" comprehensive updates were the result of HFD people working on this-and-that, that couldn't be done in time for the commercial release, but contained things the we "felt" needed to be done.

The Matrix "official" comprehensive updates include much work from the original Babes scenarios. Babes was devised as a set of test-bed scenarios that could be modified at will without impacting the 1-25 stock scenario restrictions. Matrix does not issue constant comprehensive updates. They are a commercial enterprise that markets a product. Continuing costs for continuing tweaking is not part of the financial model. What you see from Matrix, now, is what you get, forever and ever, Amen.

When marketing was finished, Matrix washed their hands. But HFD is still involved and does things under another label for the user community. Michaelm was granted an exclusive license, by Matrix, to maintain and adapt the WiTPAE executable code for private (beta) bug fixes and "adaptations", so long as adaptations DO NOT impact the stock executable system. Michaelm has worked closely with other HFD members to incorporate their tweaks, while keeping utterly Kosher with his brief.

Matrix is done with this title. HFD is still pushing the envelope. Since it's our game, we can do this. Quality control is, was, and always will be, in US. Smell the roses.

[ed] Alfred, thank you for your comments. As you know, none of us were ever computer game designers. We were (and still are) just people with an interest in the genre, and who can use this as a vehicle. I think we did a damn good job of it and any extensions are within the original concept.

Ciao. J


-States that the game is owned by Henderson Field.
-Mentions that Michaelm is given an exclusive license from Matrix to update the game.

That doesn't add up. Who owns the game? Is it Matrix, handing out licenses or is it Henderson?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
I avoid all mods of this game, as they are not subject to the same predictable update / repair / patch protocols that Matrix/Slytherine products are. Additionally, while some of the changes made in these mods seem intriguing and useful, others seem arbitrary and capricious. Your mileage may vary, but those are my thoughts.

This is funny, in a way. Sad, in a way, too. But here’s a teensy history lesson. WiTP-AE was developed by Henderson Field Designs, not Matrix/Slitherine. Matrix graciously offered to market the game, but it was a HFD product (Erik Rutins provided a great deal of input to various aspects, but as a participant).

Matrix did not make WiTP-AE, Matrix marketed WiTP-AE after HFD developed it. So what is “official”?

The AE game was introduced in 2009. There were some things that the HFD designers couldn’t get done in time for release, so they were incorporated into the comprehensive update, 1008r9. The point is, it’s OUR game. It’s not Matrix’ it’s HFD’s.

Any support that Matrix (michaelm) gives to this game is from the perspective of HFD developers. Much of what michaelm has done is buried within the code in support of HFD development requests.

Some people won’t do anything unless it has “official” Matrix commercial approval. That’s fine, more power to them. But this game belongs to HFD, not Matrix, and if we (HFD) want to tweak it, we will do so without a “by your leave”.

Suggest you look at the provenence of mods before you spew.

[ed] Your wanting to be "official" is nice, but you must realize that, in terms of AE, "official" is what HFD says is "official", not Matrix. Matrix won't do anything to update the game because the AE community is doing this already on their own nickel. If you want to play a few generations back, it's up to you.


The tendancy for people to stick with "offical" is normally due to the fact that offical versions normally undergo testing prior to being released. That's not the case with the HFD tinkering with the design and hoping everything works as intended.

To be blunt, Matrix has to have a system of quality control in place for updates. Henderson Field doesn't, and beyond the efforts of a sole individual, there isn't any quality control for updates.


You know this to be true; that Henderson Field doesn't have quality control for updates.

Perhaps the following regarding Henderson Field has escaped your notice.

1. The key Henderson Field developers (and yes it is more than a one man band) develop and support their product for CPX players who operate in a different universe, quite out of sight to the vast majority of AE forum posters.

2. The small scale scenarios of the DaBabes family were initially developed for and tested by the CPX players before general release to the AE community. Conceptually there is no real difference between the small scale and GCs of the DaBabes family. The differences exist in areas of scale and "graininess", not in how devices operate.

3. The one man band you refer to I presume is Symon. He is quite active on the modders sub forum and provides his proposed data changes there publicly, and to various trusted individuals privately. His progress work is therefore subject to input from serious modders who understand how the code operates. That sounds a lot like quality control to me.

A perusal of the threads in the modders sub forum, going back a number of years, will be quite the education.

Alfred


1. What is a CPX and why do thoe who operate it exist in a different universe?

2. My concern is the lack of long-term testing. Things like refineries and supply are butchered under the assumption that it will work in theory. Games rarely follow theory.

3. I was refering to michaelm, who's the only one I've seen directly supporting the game.

(in reply to Symon)
Post #: 28
RE: Convince Me - 12/14/2013 10:36:25 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4519
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
Henderson was given the WitP license for building AE around the original GG source code. This new modified WitP is called WitP AE and is owned by HFD.

But the old source code is still the basis of AE, and only Michael was granted permission to modify it to a certain point. The rest are non source code modifications.


Many people here have been playing this game for over 6-7 years, and continue to do so. Thats the only 'long-term testing' you will get. With a game this scale any new releases would be impossible otherwise.
But it works for over half a decade now, and is built on experience far older than that (the original WitP and its´predecessor UV), so do not be concerned. The game will not implode in the foreseeable future.

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(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 29
RE: Convince Me - 12/14/2013 11:42:46 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 8305
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: online
I'm a pretty close reader here on the history of the game, and I've been watching Matrix management here and on Usenet for over ten years. Still, some of what Symon said was new news to me. I had pictured a tighter grip by Matrix/Slith on AE even now than he describes. I suspect, and he has alluded to in the recent past, complex interplay with GG, licenses, and the dance that was done to get AE designed while keeping all parties happy. Given his professional background I know he knows how that works, and I know I don't need to know, or ever will.

Still, on the topic of official versus beta upgrades, I've never understood players who insist they will only play "official" Matrix-stamped code. As if Matrix had labs full of PCs and white-coated statisticians wringing out bugs a la Blizzard or EA. At one time on Usenet Erik R. mentioned that Matrix had eleven employees. This is a long time ago and before the Slith move, but if my memory is correct it's at least directional as to how deep Matrix's resources run. To me it seemed likely that they took Michael's and the dev team's code, saw that it loaded in a normal game enviro, slapped on the serial number module, and loaded it on their server. That was about the extent of their "official" input and process. It never seemed logical to me to deny oneself the good changes being made for a period of months or years in order to gain that amount of "official."

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Post #: 30
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