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RE: Friendly Challenge - 1/5/2014 7:28:36 AM   
robske


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I know. I just ran a game past night. Likely some pirates triggered silvermist very early on (somewhere in the first 5 years). Now a large portion of the universe is devoid of live. Eaten by silvermist. And a huge swarm is coming my way. Doesn't look good.

Not to mention that the Eruktah refugees have just appeared.

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The universe has its mysteries which can only be solved through the curiousity of intelligent life...

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Keep the past in mind, act in the present, look to the future.

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Post #: 31
RE: Friendly Challenge - 1/11/2014 11:16:39 AM   
Icemania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania
Without technology selling my score was only about 600,000 in 2130.

You my friend ... are a ****. Yes, a ****.

There are a few strategies you have obviously missed as I've managed a score of 1.32M with more than 5 years to spare.

Toughen up Princess.

Regards,
Bad Icemania






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Icemania -- 1/11/2014 2:14:14 PM >

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RE: Friendly Challenge - 1/11/2014 3:18:55 PM   
robske


Posts: 59
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Wow!

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Scifi 4X game geek...

The universe has its mysteries which can only be solved through the curiousity of intelligent life...

My lesson about life:
Keep the past in mind, act in the present, look to the future.

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Post #: 33
RE: Friendly Challenge - 1/11/2014 7:18:49 PM   
Spidey


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So what did you do to get there, Ice? Massive scout spam early on, followed by mass invasions to sit on the indies as well as the homeworlds of other factions, combined with early access to WotA and pirates directing their early attention on someone else?

You can't just dangle that picture in front of us, tell us that there are strategies, and then not say anything else.

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Post #: 34
RE: Friendly Challenge - 1/12/2014 2:23:48 AM   
Icemania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Spidey
So what did you do to get there, Ice? Massive scout spam early on, followed by mass invasions to sit on the indies as well as the homeworlds of other factions, combined with early access to WotA and pirates directing their early attention on someone else?

You can't just dangle that picture in front of us, tell us that there are strategies, and then not say anything else.


Fully agree Spidey, this is intended as a Strategy thread.

Much of the strategy was getting used to the changes from the latest patch and getting the timing right.

As usual I kept a High Priority on High Tech Research (and even higher priority after Gerax Hyperdrive which was the early focus) to enable building Advanced Medicomplex for the 100% growth bonus as soon as possible (particularly since Quameno have slow population growth). Between 2110 and 2117 I had 0% tax on my homeworld to reach maximum population. Traders Bazaar was also built in time for 2117. By 2124 I also had all the Research Wonders and Holographic Network built with research well underway for the Empire bonus Wonders.

Yes scout spam is always essential but inspired by sbach2o I decided to play this game with 100% move-to and checking every few game days (as the target is explored well before the move-to command completes) so that command re-issue can be optimised. This was very micro-intensive but it meant that I had Way of the Ancients and 3 Super Luxury Mines running by 2113. Between 2110 and 2117 my Empire was funded primarily by Super Luxuries (early I had some savings to draw on).

Normally I start invading independents as soon as I have the technology but as the drain on early game resources is immense (defence ships, troops, temporary protection agreements) this approach can quickly put a halt to the 0% growth phase. This time I waited until I had sufficient income from the Super Luxuries so the first invasion was not until 2111. By 2116 I had 16 Colonies with defences all funded by Super Luxuries. Only the troops/ships/bases needed (a zero excess focus) were produced during this time. Reputation recovery took some time as the technology and resources to destroy Pirate bases came later in this period.

Once 2117 came around I had plenty of homeworld income. With the increases in enemy empire homeworld troop strength in recent patches I had falsely convinced myself that a space fleet was needed to dominate first due to the space control bonus to ground combat. This time around I built Armoured Factories on almost every world and spammed ground forces from 2117. Between 2121 and 2124 three homeworlds were conquered using sneaky troop transports (with 3 times the strength of the ground army to counter the fact they have space control, sometimes land more troops, and have a large population bonus). For two of the three homeworlds I targeted empires which still only had 1 world so when they were conquered I received all of their assets. Reputation recovery was trivial via the usual focus on destroying Pirate bases.

Also consider how much influence the military element has on overall Score. I normally don't build spaceports with a firepower of 4,320 at this stage of the game! There was a lot of crash research with Torpedoes when I had the funds available so Plasma Thunderbolt research finished in 2121.

As a final note I am not sure how this score could be achieved with any other race. Feel free to prove me wrong!


< Message edited by Icemania -- 1/12/2014 3:34:58 AM >

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Post #: 35
RE: Friendly Challenge - 1/12/2014 12:25:46 PM   
Icemania


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Here is how that game ended up (another homeworld later and with some consolidation).




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Icemania -- 1/12/2014 1:26:15 PM >

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RE: Friendly Challenge - 1/12/2014 1:21:56 PM   
Spidey


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I don't even want to have nightmares about the micro needed for 100% move to plus weekly updates on scouts in a 1400 system game. Holy hell. I'm having shivers just from reading it. That's some serious dedication.

As for the other things, it makes sense. Find stuff first so you can sit on it first. Prioritize exploration and wonder grabbing along with growth. But I do have one question. How do you avoid a hugely fractured empire with a few mines here, a few mines there, a huge territory to protect, and no central shape connecting everything? Did you manage to colonize all the empty space between the super luxuries and other homeworlds or did you just race outwards and then worried about filling in the empty holes later? If so, how did you avoid getting buggered by pirates time and again?

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Post #: 37
RE: Friendly Challenge - 1/12/2014 3:07:06 PM   
Canute0

 

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You don't need that much mines.
Just be sure your homeworld got all nessesary resources mines around. Design your mining station that they can stand against 2-3 pirate ships alone.
Don't create colonies, so you don't need to defend them, since they prolly don't give you profit until the games end.

Icemania capture other homeworld, you capture their resources too, that should be enough resources to build defence bases + more cash income.

Just a question to Icemania, did you capture the other homeworld with sneak attacks or did you declare war before ? :-)


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Post #: 38
RE: Friendly Challenge - 1/13/2014 2:15:07 AM   
Icemania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Spidey
But I do have one question. How do you avoid a hugely fractured empire with a few mines here, a few mines there, a huge territory to protect, and no central shape connecting everything? Did you manage to colonize all the empty space between the super luxuries and other homeworlds or did you just race outwards and then worried about filling in the empty holes later? If so, how did you avoid getting buggered by pirates time and again?

No Colonisation technology was researched or used (well except for a colony ship or two found during exploration). The Independents conquered were the strongest nearby ones so my territory was close to continuous.

Until 2117 I focused on defence but as soon as my homeworld hit maximum population I built 5 Pirate Base Extermination Fleets who were on constant base destruction duty so the pirate attacks dropped off continuously from that point onwards.

As Canute says you don't really need a large number of mines. Before invading homeworlds I had less than 30. I also try to group them to only a few nearby systems to make them as defensible as possible. Each system had 4 max size defence ships. Temporary protection agreements were used when necessary. As soon as the Super Luxuries were discovered I sent a construction ship with a 4 ship escort. After I had Plasma Thunderbolt in 2121 those defence ships weren't really needed. Spaceports with 4320 firepower made for rather short battles!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canute
Just a question to Icemania, did you capture the other homeworld with sneak attacks or did you declare war before ? :-)

Sneak attacks. Quameno victory conditions penalise you if you declare war.


< Message edited by Icemania -- 1/13/2014 3:17:24 AM >

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Post #: 39
RE: Friendly Challenge - 1/13/2014 3:55:40 AM   
Darkspire


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quote:

Sneak attacks. Quameno victory conditions penalise you if you declare war.


Not only has he given up cutting the legs off the horse he has now fitted it with roller skates ...

Darkspire

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RE: Friendly Challenge - 1/13/2014 4:17:59 AM   
Icemania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkspire

quote:

Sneak attacks. Quameno victory conditions penalise you if you declare war.


Not only has he given up cutting the legs off the horse he has now fitted it with roller skates ...

Darkspire

A competent AI would be able to do that as well.

These days it's all about how much margin the race is won by ... at least it's fun!


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Post #: 41
RE: Friendly Challenge - 1/13/2014 4:24:40 AM   
Darkspire


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quote:

These days it's all about how much margin the race is won by ... at least it's fun!


Just be sure to keep this thread going, It is a great addition to the forum, I will give you a run for your money (with rockets on me roller skates and a cybernetic nag) as soon as I am able ...

Darkspire

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RE: Friendly Challenge - 1/14/2014 3:11:16 AM   
Icemania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkspire
Just be sure to keep this thread going, It is a great addition to the forum, I will give you a run for your money (with rockets on me roller skates and a cybernetic nag) as soon as I am able ...

For the first time I pretty much have a blank sheet of paper in strategy for my next game. I did slow down from about 2124 though as only one homeworld was invaded after that but if I had kept troop production going it could have been a couple more.

So I'll need that friendly run for the money from the community ... or someone to suggest settings to play on their turf.





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Post #: 43
RE: Friendly Challenge - 1/14/2014 4:33:53 AM   
Spidey


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Try to see how well you can do with exclusively automated explorers. That ought to make things a whole lot harder while reducing the micro quite significantly.

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Post #: 44
RE: Friendly Challenge - 1/14/2014 6:37:34 AM   
Icemania


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As Darkspire has said I have no interest these days in cutting more legs off the horse. Indeed there are far more effective ways to cut the legs off the horse than automated explorers which I've tried before like a Harsh start when all other Empires are Tech Level 5 and Mature on Extreme. Watching Explorers do utterly stupid things would be frustrating to watch so thanks but no thanks.

Inspire me with new strategy ideas Spidey!

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Post #: 45
RE: Friendly Challenge - 1/14/2014 6:31:35 PM   
Spidey


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A new strategy idea is a much tougher challenge, though. And I was hoping to think of something that would reduce the micro to the point where I wouldn't absolutely feel too lazy to join the fray. :-)

Max micro explorers is so powerful. It gives you such a nice competitive advantage. Tech bonus from wrecks, planet squishers, ruin techs, WotA, knowledge of resource rich clusters, super luxuries, clusters of habitable planets, indies. That big and scary unknown void can turn into a lunchbox pretty quickly, but on the other hand it's a micro nightmare of the worst kind to carry out the approach on a 1000+ system galaxy. Without some sort of limitation on how effectively you explore the universe, the optimal approach will necessarily involve a frankly rather silly amount of time invested into making sure every scout is operating at peak capacity. Making your explorerers dumb is one way to do it. Making them numerically limited is another.

However, if you don't want to hold yourself back like that then how about respawning pirates? They're not strong enough to really screw you over, but they're strong enough that you have to be more conservative with your defense and since they respawn, you can't just send out a fleet to clear an area permanently.

Alternatively, how about a bit of roleplay? No sneak attacking while at WotA, no declaring wars of convenience while using a "peaceful" race or government type? Maybe even try to follow the tech priorities specified in the policy file of your race of choice? Granted, this is still more of a personal limitation than an actual strategic paradigm change, but it's hard to change the strategy much as long as the objective is to win as massively as possible with no holds barred (beyond early derelict capital ships and tech trading), since most games really do reward one approach at least a little bit more.


Anyway, the above was me offloading some stray thoughts on how to get a different experience by changing the context, which is something we can probably achieve even more efficiently once Universe arrives. I suppose the relevance is somewhat questionable, even if I felt like writing it all the same. You're asking for strategy ideas for the current context? Well, you might gain a tiny bit by obsoleting civ ships during the early pre-ward research era. There's no point in wasting resources on what is by and large a cross between pirate bait and floating space debris with directional thrusters.

I'm sure there's some potential for space port location optimization but it's a pain in the ass to figure out exactly how to do this optimally. I tend to think less is more in terms of the number of space ports but then I'm also new, inexperienced, and for some reason most of the "older" people around here seem to think differently.

For research, I think the proper order of things is more or less well established. For energy, the priority is proper warp drives, shields, ranged resource scanners, and long range scanners. Then better reactors, warp drives, and engines that can actually move bigger hulls. For weapons, the priority is reasonable troops, armor for your ships, and then ultimate torpedos. Point defense, logistics, ion defense, and of course mech infantry are probably next. For HT, the priority is getting energy collectors, biggers hulls, wonders for some fairly massive competitive advantages, maybe the early colonization techs, and then better cargo bays, fuel cells, docking bays, life support systems, in roughly whatever order you feel like. Targeting systems, ECM, and damage control are also quite nifty research targets at this point.

Some variation of the above approach gives you what you really need as fast as possible, doesn't it? But one thing that does spring to mind, and which I haven't seen anyone mention, is that once you've got those weapon basics, you don't really seem to need more weapon research for a while, do you? Would it be worth it to downscale your weapon research, shifting the majority of your research points to an even split between energy and HT? Going from 33% to 50% of your imperial potential research is essentially a 50% increase and it seems to me that a hyperfusion reactor, good engines, and size 700+ hulls are more beneficial than having the option to put laser weapons or area weapons onto your ships.

What else is there? Getting as much utility as possible out of mining stations and civilian ships? I'm sure you're doing that already. Long range scanners and science labs on stations? Why not? Using gas mining stations as strategic resupply depots with an appropriate docking and cargo capacity? Again, why not? It's not like the civs have a hard time paying for it. But I'm pretty sure you're the one who inspired me to throw science labs on mining stations in the first place so I'm sure you're already doing your best to push as many of your expenses onto the private sector as possible.

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 46
RE: Friendly Challenge - 1/14/2014 7:06:55 PM   
Darkspire


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quote:

Max micro explorers is so powerful. It gives you such a nice competitive advantage. Tech bonus from wrecks, planet squishers, ruin techs, WotA, knowledge of resource rich clusters, super luxuries, clusters of habitable planets, indies. That big and scary unknown void can turn into a lunchbox pretty quickly, but on the other hand it's a micro nightmare of the worst kind to carry out the approach on a 1000+ system galaxy. Without some sort of limitation on how effectively you explore the universe, the optimal approach will necessarily involve a frankly rather silly amount of time invested into making sure every scout is operating at peak capacity. Making your explorerers dumb is one way to do it. Making them numerically limited is another.


I found that out a few years ago and have since left my explorers on auto, 20 per game. It than allows a bit more of a random pot luck with what you find.

quote:

However, if you don't want to hold yourself back like that then how about respawning pirates? They're not strong enough to really screw you over, but they're strong enough that you have to be more conservative with your defense and since they respawn, you can't just send out a fleet to clear an area permanently.


That is a must have, as the game progresses and the empire numbers drop they fill the empty space, if you do not keep an eye on them they can get quite strong, pirates must be set to full strength on both sliders

quote:

But one thing that does spring to mind, and which I haven't seen anyone mention, is that once you've got those weapon basics, you don't really seem to need more weapon research for a while, do you? Would it be worth it to downscale your weapon research, shifting the majority of your research points to an even split between energy and HT? Going from 33% to 50% of your imperial potential research is essentially a 50% increase and it seems to me that a hyperfusion reactor, good engines, and size 700+ hulls are more beneficial than having the option to put laser weapons or area weapons onto your ships.


Your forgetting troops are in the weapons research tab, not to mention the Logistic savings, increasing troop strength is a must against pirate incursion.

Darkspire

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RE: Friendly Challenge - 1/15/2014 3:03:37 AM   
Spidey


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How much troop research do you really need? Up to Armored Shock Forces for invasions and Superior Defense Tactics for pirate defense? Maybe all the way to Superior Logistics to keep troop costs down? Add Ablative Metals for access to reactive armor, Enhanced Missiles and Point Defense Weapons for some basic anti-fighter weapons, and possibly even Enhanced Beam Weapons, Ion Weapons, and EMP Defenses for some ion defense. Those things and ultimate torps still only have a commulative cost of ~34m research points. Take out Sup Logist and you're cutting off a further ~7.5m points, ending up at 26.5 million, which by my count is about a forth of what it costs to get all the nifty stuff from energy and HT.

The thing is, I'm not saying that reducing weapons research for most of the mid to late game is an optimal way to do things. I haven't even tested the approach at this point. I'm simply speculating that the benefit of weighting weapons reserch equally with the other areas might be limited once you've gotten a resonable level of armor, the most necessary troop techs, and tier 7 torpedoes.

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Post #: 48
RE: Friendly Challenge - 1/15/2014 9:39:30 AM   
Icemania


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For this game with troop research up to near 2117, I decided to do nothing. Up to that point it's just invading independents and defence. In preparation for ground force spamming, I research armour, and then the first two logistics technologies. Then back to Torpedoes. I don't even bother with Point Defence or Ion Weapons. I normally conduct more research in Energy and much more in High Tech for the reasons you have outlined. That said I didn't quite finish Plasma Hardening so I could probably optimise that a little to improve the score.

When it comes to roleplay and different ways to play, this game has plenty of variety. It's been a while since I've played respawning pirates so will do that next game, cheers. But there is nothing I'd like more than for someone to top these scores by doing something radically new strategically.





< Message edited by Icemania -- 1/15/2014 10:40:26 AM >

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Post #: 49
RE: Friendly Challenge - 1/15/2014 4:26:54 PM   
Spidey


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With expensive tech, the costs in research points is twice what I outlined, isn't it? If the research potential is essentially equivalent to basic research points generated per year, and I suspect that it might be, then you'd need a figure approaching 50 million research points to get to the end of the weapons research. Getting 50 mil points in a single area in 30 years or less is not exactly trivial, so I suspect what I'm suggesting works better if you've got a realistic chance to actually see the end of the tech tree before the game ends.

A thing I'm also realising is that expensive research cost might actually make your full scout efficiency approach even more effective. The AI isn't very good at taking advantage of derelicts but there seems to be a chance to get a free tech from each dismantled wreck, and the value of free tech is proportional to how long it would've taken to get it.

Anyways, I'll have a go at your challenge eventually, but I can just about guarantee that I won't be able to break your score, as I simply don't have the stamina for monster micro. Hell, I probably won't even break half a mil in a mere 30 years on extreme difficulty, at least not without using the Spidarians, a race of insectoid octopeds that tend to be extremely research-capable genius engineers who breed like ants, have no philosophical issues with being at war, and who naturally organize themselves according to the WotA.

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RE: Friendly Challenge - 1/16/2014 8:45:12 AM   
Icemania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Spidey
Anyways, I'll have a go at your challenge eventually, but I can just about guarantee that I won't be able to break your score, as I simply don't have the stamina for monster micro. Hell, I probably won't even break half a mil in a mere 30 years on extreme difficulty, at least not without using the Spidarians, a race of insectoid octopeds that tend to be extremely research-capable genius engineers who breed like ants, have no philosophical issues with being at war, and who naturally organize themselves according to the WotA.

It's a friendly target. Hopefully it helps a few people keep strategising to try to break it, I'd like everyone to help everyone lift their scores. And even better somebody does break it!


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Post #: 51
RE: Friendly Challenge - 1/17/2014 12:45:48 PM   
Icemania


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That's it! Nothing from the old timers ... yes you know who you are. I'm going to start some friendly sledging ...

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Post #: 52
RE: Friendly Challenge - 1/17/2014 1:40:53 PM   
Darkspire


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

That's it! Nothing from the old timers ... yes you know who you are. I'm going to start some friendly sledging ...


That's because I'm busy

And the word Veteran is soooo much better than 'old timer' thank you

Darkspire

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RE: Friendly Challenge - 1/17/2014 1:48:13 PM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkspire


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

That's it! Nothing from the old timers ... yes you know who you are. I'm going to start some friendly sledging ...


That's because I'm busy

And the word Veteran is soooo much better than 'old timer' thank you

Darkspire


Unless your me, in which case 'grumpy old man' is a much more fitting description. Now...GET OFF MY LAWN!

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'When in doubt...attack!'

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Post #: 54
RE: Friendly Challenge - 1/17/2014 11:30:51 PM   
Icemania


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Well at least you guys have responded so I'll play nice for the moment. Feel free to join me with friendly sledging of others.

Let's start with Kayoz. What a mighty big voice you have! But one can only assume small gameplay. Will you respond if I mention Steam? Care to provide some evidence to prove me wrong?



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Post #: 55
RE: Friendly Challenge - 1/19/2014 1:34:33 AM   
Icemania


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Ashbery76, wow I see you started posting here 4 years ago. As one of our Veterans you must have some tricks we haven't thought of yet. But then again ... maybe not? Show us your snowball ...

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Post #: 56
RE: Friendly Challenge - 1/19/2014 7:36:55 AM   
Canute0

 

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Maybe a different challenge ?

Win the game with your Race victory conditions, compare the date and maybe the score.


• Play a Pirate Empire at the Age of shadows.
• 700/1000 Stars, 10 x 10 Sectors. I don't like 1400 it takes to much time for a safegame.
• PreWarp Expansion, Extreme Difficulty, Difficulty Scales Near Victory
• Restless Aggression
• Very Many Strong Pirates, Nearby Distance, No Respawn
• Many Space Creatures
• Expensive Research
• Abundant Colonies, Teeming Independent Life
• Excellent Homeworld, Starting, Pre-Warp, Normal Corruption, Centre
• 15 Empires, Excellent Homeworld, Pre-Warp
• Victory Only Pirate-specific
• No Original/Shakturi Storyline

What do you think ?




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Post #: 57
RE: Friendly Challenge - 1/21/2014 11:11:18 AM   
Icemania


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Never got into the Pirate game but sure why not. Your challenge Canute so what's the score we need to beat? In the meantime I'm a bit busy blowing up Borg Cubes on the Star Trek Armada 3 mod for Sins of a Solar Empire ...

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Post #: 58
RE: Friendly Challenge - 1/23/2014 3:13:11 PM   
elanaagain


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I am in awe of some of the scores earned on this thread. Wow. I would love to participate in these friendly challenges. However, I hate the big maps. I prefer a smaller space with very few colonies, very few independents, very few colonizable planets, moons. Is there an interest in this? If so, I will set up the game parameters. Should I start a new thread, or leave it here?

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Post #: 59
RE: Friendly Challenge - 1/23/2014 4:07:17 PM   
Darkspire


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quote:

ORIGINAL: elanaagain

I am in awe of some of the scores earned on this thread. Wow. I would love to participate in these friendly challenges. However, I hate the big maps. I prefer a smaller space with very few colonies, very few independents, very few colonizable planets, moons. Is there an interest in this? If so, I will set up the game parameters. Should I start a new thread, or leave it here?


Leave it in this thread, see the post a few back from Canute, he posted his setup parameters there for a game challenge.

I will be participating as soon as I can, bit busy at present.

Darkspire

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