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Convoy Oil Expenditure Query

 
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Convoy Oil Expenditure Query - 11/26/2013 10:07:38 PM   
Omnius


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I'm trying to figure out how to calculate how much oil I have to expend reorganizing convoy points. When I reorganized the CW units on the first turn of Global War the oil expenditure calculator in the Production Planning Screen was around 5 oil points needed to reorganize all oil using units. However when I actually did the trick I found I needed a lot less because I only paid to reorganize the convoy points I moved, around 2 points. I didn't pay for the convoy points that remained at sea.

I remember reading something long ago in the WiF rules that convoy points that stay at sea do not cost oil to reorganize, only if convoy points move to or from sea areas do they pay. I can't find that in the old WiF rules or the new MWiF rules. Can someone point me to where the rules say exactly how much convoy points at sea cost other than the chart of unit costs that shows how much to produce or reorganize?

I also wonder how accurate the oil calculator is, it seems to calculate all convoy points as needing to be reorganized with oil so this nice calculator is really rather worthless. If convoy points that stay at sea don't need oil to be reorganized really is correct then the oil calculator needs to ignore convoy points at sea and only tally them when they move to or from sea areas. What good is an oil use calculator that calculates incorrectly?

Something is missing here as regards oil consumption and convoys. Either there's something very important missing from the rules telling us that convoy points that stay at sea don't require oil for reorganization in which case the oil calculator is broken and must be corrected, or the calculator is correct and the convoy points that stay at sea need to be included in oil reorganization costs. So which is correct?

Either way I think this is a major fail by the beta testers to not ensure that something as important and basic as the oil calculator would be so screwed up. I certainly hope that this gets corrected ASAP as that oil calculator can be truly helpful if we can actually rely upon it's number for oil needed for reorganization.

Omnius
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RE: Convoy Oil Expenditure Query - 11/26/2013 10:20:00 PM   
paulderynck


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Looks to me the oil calculator is broken. They need oil to re-org if they end the turn disrupted. They'll be disrupted if they RTB (or on occasion move out to sea from a port in which they were OOS - but OTOH, if disrupted and at sea they are fully functional except they can't voluntarily RTB until turn end - so in essence a disrupted CP at sea often stays that way until eligible to be your free one twentieth of an oil point per turn.)

As per the chart, they cost 1/20th of an oil to re-org.

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Thanks for Confirming - 11/26/2013 10:30:43 PM   
Omnius


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paulderynck,
Thanks for confirming for me that the oil use calculator is broken. I wish I could find the rule section that tells us specifically that convoy points that stay at sea and aren't disrupted don't use oil for reorganization. I'm starting to wonder if this was an old house rule that made it into the MWiF game but not the rules.

It's something of a pain to have to remember how much oil is being incorrectly calculated, especially for the CW. I hope that the oil calculator gets fixed really soon as this feature is one of the big reasons for being glad to see WiF come to the computer. Being able to pull up the Production Planning Screen to check the oil use calculator would be very helpful when it's correctly computing oil usage.

Omnius

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RE: Thanks for Confirming - 11/26/2013 11:02:58 PM   
paulderynck


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I'm a tad reluctant to say I'm confirming it. It looks that way based on the info you convey, but I've been burnt in the past on things like this by Steve saying, "ah, but you missed using this or that button" and voila! it works as you desire...

But really the chart is the only place where it says what the re-org cost is. In MWiF the term "disrupted" is used. In WiF we say "flipped". Either way the only method of getting a flipped or disrupted unit face-up again is to re-org it. Final re-org needs oil as per the chart. An undisrupted unit needs no oil.

The chart is under the Help-->Unit Costs and Characteristics in the game main menu. I looked for it in the Manuals folder but could not find it. I suppose this is because it used to be Section 27 or 28 in the scenario booklet - not the rules booklet. Here's the screen shot confirming the cost...






Attachment (1)

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RE: Thanks for Confirming - 11/26/2013 11:33:08 PM   
lomyrin


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The oil calculator for the CW appears to figure out how much oil would be required if all oil requiring units on map were returned to base. That means it includes all the convoys even though they are normally not returned to base. As a consequence the actual oil needed is far less than indicated.

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RE: Thanks for Confirming - 11/26/2013 11:36:43 PM   
Dabrion


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Perhaps sentry stacks could be excluded in the projection by default.

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RE: Thanks for Confirming - 11/27/2013 11:07:22 AM   
Centuur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

Perhaps sentry stacks could be excluded in the projection by default.


Now that's a good suggestion. I don't know if it is easy to code, however.

If we reduce the oil points needed for used convoy points at sea in this calculation, it becomes better (but it won't be perfect, since a player can always decide to leave more convoys and also other ships at sea if he wants to...).

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I Know the Costs - 11/29/2013 3:46:18 PM   
Omnius


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pauldernyck,
I don't have any confusion as to the cost, the cost chart info is rather redundant and isn't something I was confused about. Please give
me a little credit that I'm not that stupid I don't know what the cost chart says or how to pull it up.

However the reorganization cost calculator is giving us a wrong oil cost for reorganization, it is giving us the worst case if every ship
moved back to port cost. It would be better if the reorganization cost calculator ignored convoy points moved to sea, most will likely stay
at sea. For ships moving to sea I'd be okay with them being included as they move to sea since most will return to port except for convoy escorts.

It's rather sad that such a helpful tool as the reorganization cost calculator is so screwed up giving us such a bogus number. We have to
basically write down the very first cost per turn to then subtract from the cost as the turn proceeds in order to get a more realistic cost.

Omnius

One thing I remembered after reading the rules was that we get informed of the zero cost of convoy points or ships at sea at sea by knowing that as
ships move to sea they don't get disorganized. I confirmed that by tracking one CA ship that stayed at sea didn't cost any reorganization points
because it stayed at sea organized.


< Message edited by Omnius -- 11/29/2013 4:52:30 PM >

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RE: Convoy Oil Expenditure Query - 11/29/2013 8:44:41 PM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Omnius

I'm trying to figure out how to calculate how much oil I have to expend reorganizing convoy points. When I reorganized the CW units on the first turn of Global War the oil expenditure calculator in the Production Planning Screen was around 5 oil points needed to reorganize all oil using units. However when I actually did the trick I found I needed a lot less because I only paid to reorganize the convoy points I moved, around 2 points. I didn't pay for the convoy points that remained at sea.

I remember reading something long ago in the WiF rules that convoy points that stay at sea do not cost oil to reorganize, only if convoy points move to or from sea areas do they pay. I can't find that in the old WiF rules or the new MWiF rules. Can someone point me to where the rules say exactly how much convoy points at sea cost other than the chart of unit costs that shows how much to produce or reorganize?

I also wonder how accurate the oil calculator is, it seems to calculate all convoy points as needing to be reorganized with oil so this nice calculator is really rather worthless. If convoy points that stay at sea don't need oil to be reorganized really is correct then the oil calculator needs to ignore convoy points at sea and only tally them when they move to or from sea areas. What good is an oil use calculator that calculates incorrectly?

Something is missing here as regards oil consumption and convoys. Either there's something very important missing from the rules telling us that convoy points that stay at sea don't require oil for reorganization in which case the oil calculator is broken and must be corrected, or the calculator is correct and the convoy points that stay at sea need to be included in oil reorganization costs. So which is correct?

Either way I think this is a major fail by the beta testers to not ensure that something as important and basic as the oil calculator would be so screwed up. I certainly hope that this gets corrected ASAP as that oil calculator can be truly helpful if we can actually rely upon it's number for oil needed for reorganization.

Omnius


Omnius
No offense intended. I was answering the points in your OP that I highlighted above. I did spend a fair chunk of time looking to see if the chart in question was anywhere at all in the documentation as you claimed, and actually confirmed that.

I can see my time is far better spent assisting others.

It looks like in this regard, the oil cost calculator does need modification and hopefully it will happen soon.



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RE: Convoy Oil Expenditure Query - 11/29/2013 9:35:30 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Here's a post by me on this topic from another thread.

---
Here's the change I made to help clarify the oil needed.

The To Reorg. Units entry in the summary page now shows two numbers.

The first does not include any units at sea that can stay at sea. That means if the unit has to return to base it is included in the sum (assuming it is disorganized).

The second includes all units (including those currently with sentry status). Sentry status is not something that is shown to the other player in a NetPlay game; a very small Fog of War item. But that's why the second number includes all units at sea.




EDIT: as for the amount used by convoys, you can just take the total convoys - unused convoys and multiply that by 0.05. In this case that number is 99 - 34 = 65 ==> 3.25 for convoys routing resources. Of course there might be more convoys that you want to have remain at sea for various reasons.

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Agreement - 12/2/2013 3:28:50 PM   
Omnius


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pauldernyk,
I'm glad that you see that yes the oil cost calculator isn't functioning correctly.
The documentation for how to count ships and convoys at sea is missing stating point blank that ships at sea don't cost oil for reorganization because the mere act of moving to sea doesn't disorganize them.

Omnius

< Message edited by Omnius -- 12/2/2013 4:34:15 PM >

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Post #: 11
Where are the Two Numbers? - 12/2/2013 3:33:41 PM   
Omnius


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Shannon,
Thanks for the answer regarding the two numbers for the oil cost calculator.
However I do not see the first number on my screen, just the second number
that says total oil possibly expended. I like the way you show both numbers.

Obviously we won't really know the total oil cost to reorganize until we are finished with returning ships to base.
So does this two number answer appear for us in solitaire mode because I've yet to see it?

I hope I get to see this two number oil cost soon. I upgraded to 1.041 and didn't see it yesterday.

Omnius

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 12
RE: Where are the Two Numbers? - 12/2/2013 5:06:04 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Omnius

Shannon,
Thanks for the answer regarding the two numbers for the oil cost calculator.
However I do not see the first number on my screen, just the second number
that says total oil possibly expended. I like the way you show both numbers.

Obviously we won't really know the total oil cost to reorganize until we are finished with returning ships to base.
So does this two number answer appear for us in solitaire mode because I've yet to see it?

I hope I get to see this two number oil cost soon. I upgraded to 1.041 and didn't see it yesterday.

Omnius

That change will be in version 1.0.5.0, to be available in the next couple of days.

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Thanks for Good News - 12/3/2013 9:49:19 PM   
Omnius


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Shannon,
Thanks for the good news that I didn't miss the boat on this new change. I thought of the way the oil cost was calculated as the "Lawyer"s" choice in that it gave us the worst case scenario to cover one's behind so that no customer could come back and cry that he relied on that number yet it became significantly higher.

I look forward to seeing the two numbers, the first new one will be most helpful in guessing how much oil will be spent by ground and air units that have become disorganized during the turn.

Omnius

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 14
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