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RE: WitP:AE 2 - 11/22/2013 12:43:17 AM   
zuluhour


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+1 Chicken

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RE: WitP:AE 2 - 11/22/2013 12:48:39 AM   
zuluhour


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I think there should be a challenge to the USNA. It should have updates and links readily accessible on some big sites like a CNN etc.. Just a seed of an idea.




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RE: WitP:AE 2 - 11/22/2013 1:05:04 AM   
wdolson

 

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USNA = US Naval Academy?

Bill

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RE: WitP:AE 2 - 11/22/2013 3:05:12 AM   
zuluhour


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Yes sir!

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RE: WitP:AE 2 - 11/22/2013 3:21:07 AM   
wdolson

 

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OK, I'm a bit lost. You want someone to set up another naval academy? I think the USN would have a problem with that.

Bill

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RE: WitP:AE 2 - 11/22/2013 10:20:24 AM   
zuluhour


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Damn it man, it was billiard night here at the O club. Its early now but the idea is to get a game with a high profile opponent and make the posts available (AAR etc.)for young people to see what this game is about. Good for the Navy good for the war gaming world. I found out about war gaming in an article in my dad's Esquire magazine in like 1971. I was probably looking for the pretty girl pictures, hey I was 11. I gotta shave etc. for work, so I'll try and expound on this over the weekend.

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RE: WitP:AE 2 - 11/22/2013 10:24:01 AM   
zuluhour


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Now that I think of it,..............Naval Acad.....




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RE: WitP:AE 2 - 11/22/2013 10:26:11 AM   
zuluhour


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Looks like I still have some of the old 11 year old in me.....heh,heh,heh.

ps. Put that pic on the cover of WITP-AE and you will sell 10,000 copies accidently.

< Message edited by zuluhour -- 11/22/2013 11:27:16 AM >

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RE: WitP:AE 2 - 11/22/2013 12:24:06 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
Not trying to start yet another b-fest, but as I look at their recent mega-offerings I see one modern $100 game with a huge number of fixes in motion, another decade-in-development monster that shipped with no AI and a score of optional features greyed out on the load screen and a statement many would never be finished, and a 4X game shipped in alpha state with a "help us fund this unfinished product" pitch to real-life retail buyers. AE2 has a built in, massive buyer base and could sustain a $150 price point and not break a sweat. They're pretty bad at game publishing if they're not always, every month, talking about doing this project.


For a wargame, the fan base is very large for the WitP family. For a game, no wargame has a large market. Releases of video games like Grand Theft Auto and the other games you see on TV ads can sell more than 1 million copies in a few months after release. The best selling wargames (true wargames, not abstractions like Risk) have sold about 10,000 copies over their entire lifetime. Some mega hits like ASL sold maybe a little better than that, but probably less than 100,000 copies.

This is a niche market Slitherine/Matrix do a lot to dominate it like Avalon Hill did back in the days of board games. But it's still a niche.

When Avalon Hill sold out to Hasbro i read a very good analysis of the gaming market. Everyone who was an insider in the industry was scratching their head why Hasbro would be interested. Hasbro's worst seller game sold more in a year than Avalon Hill's best selling games did over their entire lifetime. In the end it was concluded that Hasbro had intentions of making multi-player online versions of some of AH's multi-player games like Diplomacy, but that never really happened. In the end it just prevented anyone else from doing it.

Hasbro buying AH though was akin to McDonalds expanding into Mexican food by buying out a tiny chain of Mexican taquarias as their new division.

I'm sure Matrix has made some decent money off of AE. I'm not privy to any of the financials, that is just my guess. It's probably one of the most popular computer wargames in history, but it's down in the noise compared to the big hitters. I doubt the typical fan of the latest style of computer games is going to have the patience to play a game like AE, or even an AE2 with a new engine. This topic does not lend itself to being a real time game. It's a very cerebral game that takes a lot of study.

When the Myers Briggs went around a few years ago, I noted that the majority of people who participated in the thread were INTJ with most of the rest being somewhat close in type. INTJ is the rarest of the 16 types and all the other types I saw were also rare. A group made up of rare types are probably never going to convince the rest of the herd that whatever they are into is interesting.

As an aside the type demographics here are very similar to the type demographics in Mensa which is around 24% INTJ and 16% INTP.

Bill


All good points, but points made myriad times already. Please note I am not advocating AE or any wargame try to be GTA. The latest made I think one billion dollars in gross revenue in its first two months. I get that. But constantly saying "niche" like it's a magic marketing death knell doesn't work for me. I know from marketing. I used to do marketing for Fortune 500 real players. I once worked on a $1.2 billion brand that had a $70 million ad budget in 1988 dollars. Big hitter. So I've done segmentation. I understand marketing strategy. And I also know that there are a lot of niche brands I could happily live on if offered a tenth of a tenth of a percent of their profitability. Ever heard of Tiffany's?

I know there are many definitions of "AE2." I also suspect, strongly from comments here by Matrix management over the years, that a major and perhaps insurmountable roadblock to the idea is intellectual property rights stretching back to Pacific War and GG (and maybe his 3x2 team in the WITP era.) I suspect Symon, given his real life profession, understands this roadblock far better than I ever will. But I have seen in my business life that few contracts can't be re-opened for re-negotiation. Sometimes, no. The holder of rights just is not interested. This can happen in creative fields more than in more mundane. I get that. But GG is still actively involved with Matrix/Slit. with WITW and WITE2. I do not expect he would be interested in any AE2. But he might allow it if conditions were right.

I see AE2 as the current game's guts lifted into a new shell. The design is fine. The OOB is done. The sounds, music, animation even would do. What any new team would contribute would be a true Windows interface, better interface mechanics (zoomable map, easier art swaps, etc.), some templates to speed things like TF formation, an easier consumer-level editor, and a non-scripted AI or at least a hybrid, with a better interface so historical geniuses but computer novices could do AI. That's all.


Such a team wouldn't have to be WWII grognards. They wouldn't be wtiting algorithms or designing new scenarios. They'd be coders, not designers. But really GOOD coders with deep experience in Windows. The AI stuff is the hardest obviously, but again, to do that one doesn't need to understand how main battery turrets in an Iowa-class load. They just need to look at the existing data.

The economics of it are hard, I grant. But a design document that started at a manhour budget and worked backwards to a volume and price point set would be nice. I see Matrix funding projects that have no installed fan base and asking three-figure retails for them. An AE2 didn't make sense in a recession-seared world in 2010 when computer games were forecasted to die by now, replaced by 100% console stuff. If Matrix needed to allieviate the risk by fan-sourcing or, shudder, doing a "Pandora" gig to ship an alpha to us all and ask for money to contine development, AE2 is the only, the single game in all the game universe for which I would sit still and participate. I know they're casting their hopes on the tablet market. Good luck with that. I've read their announcements, I've read their press conference notes. It might work. I don't think it will, but I've been wrong about markets many times. But my overall point is this is a product portfolio issue for them. It's about balancing risks. AE2 is risky in some ways and a solid gold lock in others. They just have to control the tendrils and let it be less of a jump than AE was from WITP. Incremental, not paradigm shifting. New news, new revenue, maybe some new players. That's all.


< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 11/22/2013 1:39:46 PM >


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RE: WitP:AE 2 - 11/22/2013 12:51:56 PM   
Xargun

 

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Perhaps a venture into a KickStarter type setup for AE2 would prove the value either way. Figure they need X (whatever number they come up with) to cover costs and if they get that or above they make the game ? Doubt that will happen, but we can all dream.

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RE: WitP:AE 2 - 11/22/2013 12:55:46 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun

Perhaps a venture into a KickStarter type setup for AE2 would prove the value either way. Figure they need X (whatever number they come up with) to cover costs and if they get that or above they make the game ? Doubt that will happen, but we can all dream.



Dreaming's all I got here on the Island of Misfit Gamers.

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RE: WitP:AE 2 - 11/22/2013 1:23:41 PM   
Xargun

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Dreaming's all I got here on the Island of Misfit Gamers.


At least the company is pretty good ....

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RE: WitP:AE 2 - 11/22/2013 1:27:38 PM   
AW1Steve

 

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Maybe we should consider "crowd sourcing"? Let's all ante up some funds in advance for Matrix and they can send us a free game when it's done. (Or maybe some money....oh wait, that's called a corporation .)
Ooops.

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RE: WitP:AE 2 - 11/22/2013 1:34:44 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Dreaming's all I got here on the Island of Misfit Gamers.


At least the company is pretty good ....



Maybe a little more deodorant . . .

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 11/22/2013 2:35:25 PM >


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RE: WitP:AE 2 - 11/22/2013 2:11:07 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rison

Just to be clear, WitP:AE is great - loving the constant beta patches from Michael.

But, I just wanted to see if the dev's are ready to start sharing details on WitP:AE 2


There's no such thing. No dev team. No product.

How's that for details?


This is like that old girlfriend who just won't believe you when you tell her it is all over. You walk outside in the morning to get your daily paper and find her sleeping in your car...


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RE: WitP:AE 2 - 11/22/2013 5:37:33 PM   
Symon


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Hi ya, Moose. You and Bill are both right.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
I know there are many definitions of "AE2." I also suspect, strongly from comments here by Matrix management over the years, that a major and perhaps insurmountable roadblock to the idea is intellectual property rights stretching back to Pacific War and GG (and maybe his 3x2 team in the WITP era.) I suspect Symon, given his real life profession, understands this roadblock far better than I ever will. But I have seen in my business life that few contracts can't be re-opened for re-negotiation. Sometimes, no. The holder of rights just is not interested. This can happen in creative fields more than in more mundane. I get that. But GG is still actively involved with Matrix/Slit. with WITW and WITE2. I do not expect he would be interested in any AE2. But he might allow it if conditions were right.

Yes. That is so. But if a credible group, with a cogent and implementable plan, were to approach Matrix, a license for the IP rights could be negotiated. This is just what Henderson Field Designs did to bring you AE. The real problem is opportunity cost. The license fees are prohibitive for anyone wanting a financial reward beyond a bottle of scotch and dinner at Outback.

Henderson Field Designs was a bizarre fluke; a bunch of crazy people, with day jobs, that were willing to invest man-years of time on the project for nothing more than the promise of a free copy of the game upon release. We did have Joe Wilkerson, who provided the credibility to Matrix and the wagon-master whip hand to bring it all together. Without that, AE2 is a fever dream. Econ 101 is great but don’t forget, there’s nine sides to the equation and it only takes one deferral to queer the whole deal.
quote:

Such a team wouldn't have to be WWII grognards. They wouldn't be wtiting algorithms or designing new scenarios. They'd be coders, not designers. But really GOOD coders with deep experience in Windows. The AI stuff is the hardest obviously, but again, to do that one doesn't need to understand how main battery turrets in an Iowa-class load. They just need to look at the existing data.

Nope. I personally have 7-9 “things” I believe are necessary to re-do. And I know just how to do them, too. But they all require ripping the existing code out by the roots. And that’s just me. Several other devs have their own “things” that they believe are necessary to re-do; and they all involve ripping the existing code out by the roots. You don’t do them, you won’t get many takers.

[ed] "Gamers" like things like interfaces and such. Simulators could give a crap so long as it's functional; we want adaptive integrity. Taking AE to the next step must involve significant program re-writes. Otherwise it's nothing but a "colorized" classic.

< Message edited by Symon -- 11/22/2013 6:57:35 PM >


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RE: WitP:AE 2 - 11/22/2013 6:02:36 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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Symon: thanks for the input. As elsewhere I'm having forum horribles today, so I can't post very well.

I guess I'm more a gamer than a simulator. Both, but interfaces are very important to me, especially as the eyes get older.

My hope is, with Slitherine's larger footprint, maybe the internal conditions will change enough from what they were when you guys came to a smaller Matrix outfit. I surely don't expect the golden era that was HFD will be repeated. In fact I'd feel a little dirty paying again for a game produced by volunteers.

If it never happens it never happens. But that's the one project where Matrix/Slitherine gets more bucks out of me. The rest of their stuff is a no-go compared to commercial-grade stuff on Steam.

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RE: WitP:AE 2 - 11/22/2013 11:47:53 PM   
Itdepends

 

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A mod/upgrade that allowed PBEM players of the existing version to enter their turns simultaneously would be my favourite- yest it's an interface thing but it would greatly speed the game.

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RE: WitP:AE 2 - 11/23/2013 1:41:06 AM   
wdolson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Itdepends

A mod/upgrade that allowed PBEM players of the existing version to enter their turns simultaneously would be my favourite- yest it's an interface thing but it would greatly speed the game.


That would be one of those rip out to the roots and rebuild things.

Bill

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RE: WitP:AE 2 - 11/23/2013 4:28:02 AM   
crsutton


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Truth is. I got one full campaign under my belt after four years. I think I will be fairly happy with what we have now for a while longer. A little more chrome is always great. I have yet to even try a Babes scenario, so I think AE as it is will entertain me for a while to come.

Yes, I would love to see a new version. But to be honest, I never thought in my life that I would see a game like this. Look at what you were playing 15 years ago. I am still blown away.

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RE: WitP:AE 2 - 11/23/2013 8:55:16 AM   
janh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
Maybe we should consider "crowd sourcing"? Let's all ante up some funds in advance for Matrix and they can send us a free game when it's done. (Or maybe some money....oh wait, that's called a corporation .)
Ooops.


Something I thought about a while ago, but I don't see that happening here. It would take more than that, i.e. a team of dedicated people like the ones who brought AE to life. People who know not only programming, but bring a deep understanding of WW2 and/or military matters.

I would be happy to participate in crowd funding if there ever was going to be such an effort for an AE2. The only condition I'd have -- or the main reason for me to look out for it in first place -- would be that AI would be put on a different basis, one that can be systematically improved and modded. One that is not scripted in the rather simple, mostly linear way it is now, but can be augmented with some less, some more complex, interdependent routines as would be possible with more complex scripting/compiler languages such as for example available in other titles such as the ARMA series. I have been modding AI in that series since OFP came out first, and with every title in the series the available scripting commands open more options (essentially only limited by runtime requirements not present for games like AE) -- it is really fun to programm and see who it evolves.
I think it would allow to put AI behavior on a very different level for AE2 and perhaps would even attract more casual gamers that don't have the time or cannot guarantee the long-term reliability that would be need to engage in a PBEM "marriage".

< Message edited by janh -- 11/23/2013 9:56:54 AM >

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RE: WitP:AE 2 - 11/23/2013 5:49:52 PM   
Rison

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rison

Just to be clear, WitP:AE is great - loving the constant beta patches from Michael.

But, I just wanted to see if the dev's are ready to start sharing details on WitP:AE 2


There's no such thing. No dev team. No product.

How's that for details?


This is like that old girlfriend who just won't believe you when you tell her it is all over. You walk outside in the morning to get your daily paper and find her sleeping in your car...



Maybe all the weren't clear enough in my original purpose of this thread!

Would love see a WitP:AE 2. It is a possibility? Don't know - there was some talk about it on the forums after AE released and weren't they looking for a new artist last year?

Regardless, WitP:AE is a **SUPERB** game. The only major drawback I see with it is my lack of time to play it! If there ever was a WitP:AE 2, throw it on Kickstarter - that's the whole point of Kickstarter. If Matrix Games is concerned about not having enough interest in it, get the money upfront and see where the interest is upfront.

Thanks for all the great comments in here, well, everyone's comments except Terminus' one word comments.

Michael and whoever is still officially working on AE - huge thanks for the beta work!

Thanks

Chad

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RE: WitP:AE 2 - 11/23/2013 7:10:40 PM   
Symon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
Symon: thanks for the input. As elsewhere I'm having forum horribles today, so I can't post very well.

Take 150ml of single malt scotch, in regular doses, untill you are righteous again.
quote:

I guess I'm more a gamer than a simulator. Both, but interfaces are very important to me, especially as the eyes get older.

Well, we all have our peculiaralities, yeah?
quote:

My hope is, with Slitherine's larger footprint, maybe the internal conditions will change enough from what they were when you guys came to a smaller Matrix outfit. I surely don't expect the golden era that was HFD will be repeated. In fact I'd feel a little dirty paying again for a game produced by volunteers.

Dude ... I will send you emails where you can send money, lots of money.
quote:

If it never happens it never happens. But that's the one project where Matrix/Slitherine gets more bucks out of me. The rest of their stuff is a no-go compared to commercial-grade stuff on Steam.

And maybe that's why a righteous group could do it again; if you got stones, and if you can find the support.

< Message edited by Symon -- 11/23/2013 8:12:00 PM >


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RE: WitP:AE 2 - 11/23/2013 11:35:03 PM   
jwilkerson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Maybe we should consider "crowd sourcing"? Let's all ante up some funds in advance for Matrix and they can send us a free game when it's done. (Or maybe some money....oh wait, that's called a corporation .)
Ooops.


Exactly, what Symon Says :D ...

AE was really a "crowd source" production ... the dozen and a half main modders from WITP got together ... approached Matrrix ... got the code ... and we produced AE ... it could be done again ... but we would need some new blood ... some of us did things like get married, get jobs, have kids, go to school and we just don't have the required cycles to do it again ... all you volunteers STEP UP .. and we will see what we can do !!!
:)



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RE: WitP:AE 2 - 11/24/2013 1:50:32 AM   
AW1Steve

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Maybe we should consider "crowd sourcing"? Let's all ante up some funds in advance for Matrix and they can send us a free game when it's done. (Or maybe some money....oh wait, that's called a corporation .)
Ooops.


Exactly, what Symon Says :D ...

AE was really a "crowd source" production ... the dozen and a half main modders from WITP got together ... approached Matrrix ... got the code ... and we produced AE ... it could be done again ... but we would need some new blood ... some of us did things like get married, get jobs, have kids, go to school and we just don't have the required cycles to do it again ... all you volunteers STEP UP .. and we will see what we can do !!!
:)




I'm sorry Joe I have absolutely no talent or ability in that area. I can research orders of battle , but that's about all I'm capable of , except holding on the the coats of those (like yourselves) with wonder and admiration , and cheer you on. If any one thinks of anything that I CAN do, please let me know.

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RE: WitP:AE 2 - 11/24/2013 3:48:06 AM   
CaptDave

 

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The last mainstream language I did any coding in was FORTRAN, so I don't think I could help much from a coding standpoint! However, I do have many years' experience in the software QA field. Should this project ever get more than a couple inches off the ground I'd be happy to help direct the QA effort (I was a software QA manager, not only a technician -- "only" referring to quantity, not importance!).

Somehow, though, I don't think I'll hold my breath waiting!

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RE: WitP:AE 2 - 11/24/2013 4:58:10 AM   
rustysi


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quote:

C'mon guys, video games are where the money is. Instant gratification = American consumers. I believe most teenage boys have no clue where Burma is. I bet if you phrased it right, they would not know what it is, nor would they care. Sad, but even adults I might share a coffee at Starbucks with not only have no clue about where stuff is on a globe but really express no interest either. Maybe when the video game designers start making their fan base wire up their nuts to their play stations will see some more cerebral types migrate over.


OK, I'm a noob here and maybe I shouldn't do this, but that's not my nature. So, here goes. Dear Zuluhour, it might be difficult for anyone to find Burma on a modern day globe... its now called Myanmar.

< Message edited by rustysi -- 11/24/2013 6:02:38 AM >

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RE: WitP:AE 2 - 11/24/2013 8:08:48 AM   
fcharton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
AE was really a "crowd source" production ... the dozen and a half main modders from WITP got together ... approached Matrrix ... got the code ... and we produced AE ... it could be done again ... but we would need some new blood ... some of us did things like get married, get jobs, have kids, go to school and we just don't have the required cycles to do it again ... all you volunteers STEP UP .. and we will see what we can do !!!


I'd certainly be interested. I can program (do it all the day at work, C/C++) and know a few things about maths and models.

Francois

< Message edited by fcharton -- 11/24/2013 9:31:34 AM >

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RE: WitP:AE 2 - 11/24/2013 10:20:24 PM   
moore4807


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SOMEBODY had to fill the seat of realist!

Terminus is good, Terminus is wise, you just have to see his posts that's how he operates, but I like blunt answers, I don't waste my time wondering where I stand...

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