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The game won't let you swap units - 11/14/2013 3:59:35 PM   
Joseignacio


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We have been always playing like we can swap units in the lan movement phase when wiffing.

Maybe it's not possible, but I believe it is, and the game doesn't let you.

In this case, the stack with the German 5/3 inf and other inf wouldn't swap with the one with the 9/5 Mech (and others).





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< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 11/14/2013 5:01:30 PM >
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RE: The game won't let you swap units - 11/14/2013 4:52:24 PM   
FreddaH

 

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I noticed this as well. As far as I can recall, overstacking should be allowed during a phase, and only result in unit destruction at the end of a phase, and thus swapping land units should be allowed. Am I wrong in this?


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RE: The game won't let you swap units - 11/14/2013 5:33:30 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

We have been always playing like we can swap units in the lan movement phase when wiffing.

Maybe it's not possible, but I believe it is, and the game doesn't let you.

In this case, the stack with the German 5/3 inf and other inf wouldn't swap with the one with the 9/5 Mech (and others).





The beta testers have been after me to enable this. I have it partially coded (defined the necessary variables) but it was always a lower priority item. Still is I'm afraid.

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RE: The game won't let you swap units - 11/14/2013 5:37:34 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FreddaH

I noticed this as well. As far as I can recall, overstacking should be allowed during a phase, and only result in unit destruction at the end of a phase, and thus swapping land units should be allowed. Am I wrong in this?


MWIF only permits overstacking in unusual circumstances. Naval units can overstack in a minor port sometimes.

But I don't want to enable players to 'crush' small land units by moving larger units into a hex and creating an overstack condition. To do what Jose was asking about, my solution is to permit overstacking during land movement, but FORCE the player to immediately correct the condition by moving a land unit out of [just created] overstacked hex. Writing that code is a little tricky. I've got the design figured out, but not coded. Sorry.

< Message edited by Shannon V. OKeets -- 11/14/2013 6:37:47 PM >


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RE: The game won't let you swap units - 11/14/2013 6:26:33 PM   
brian brian

 

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I find this interesting actually. One thing I look forward to in wargaming with computers is using the computer to make movement planning realistic. A real life Supreme Commander or Army Group commander couldn't just re-shuffle his corps size units all over the theater whenever he felt like it. Military units are given axes of advance, and woe befalls a commander who tries to switch them around after the advance starts. Like Hitler. Gamers will hate this, but the reality of war is quite a bit different from wargames.

Nothing to do with Tech Support though, carry on.

< Message edited by brian brian -- 11/14/2013 7:26:43 PM >

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RE: The game won't let you swap units - 11/17/2013 8:26:43 PM   
Dabrion


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Shuffling is ok with raw. Stacking limits apply at the end of the step (raw11.11 "Land Movement" being one step). I would like to see this asap!

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RE: The game won't let you swap units - 11/17/2013 10:32:28 PM   
JLPOWELL


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In many cases you can 'work around' this issue. (I know that this is not optimal...)

The existing UI will permit the following:

Swapping from Hex A to B if C is available C needs to be adjacent to either A or B and C must have 'space'

There are various combinations but the following example illustrates the principal.

Unit 1 & 2 are in Hex A Unit 3 & 4 are in Hex B To say you want to swap unit 2 with unit 3

Move unit 1 to hex C (any adjacent hex with space)
Move unit 3 to Hex A
Move unit 2 to Hex B
Select Unit 1 and choose 'undo' returning it to Hex A

Note this works even if moving unit 1 into hex C disorganizes a unit or puts it out of supply.

Steve indicates this will be tricky to code, but my expectation based on all the other tricky code he has successfully implemented is that this will get done once it hits the 'top of the pile'.

Fortunately this is not a really common situation (certainly not rare however), and this workaround is going to work in nearly every instance/ I won't work if there are no hexes nearby & you also need to be careful as you cannot always undo (if there has been an overrun or some HQ moves).

One of the greatest advantages MWIF has over the board game is that the rules are 'enforced' automatically. in this case its a bit is a bit constraining, but in most cases it is great not to have to stop and figure out if a move is 'legal' and what exactly is the supply situation for nearby units when a unit moves changing the path. I can recall impulses grinding to a halt for nearly an hour to hash out a rules issue when playing the board game....

-Remember - 'Have Fun' is the most important 'rule'.





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RE: The game won't let you swap units - 11/18/2013 12:18:33 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JLPOWELL

In many cases you can 'work around' this issue. (I know that this is not optimal...)

The existing UI will permit the following:

Swapping from Hex A to B if C is available C needs to be adjacent to either A or B and C must have 'space'

There are various combinations but the following example illustrates the principal.

Unit 1 & 2 are in Hex A Unit 3 & 4 are in Hex B To say you want to swap unit 2 with unit 3

Move unit 1 to hex C (any adjacent hex with space)
Move unit 3 to Hex A
Move unit 2 to Hex B
Select Unit 1 and choose 'undo' returning it to Hex A

Note this works even if moving unit 1 into hex C disorganizes a unit or puts it out of supply.

Steve indicates this will be tricky to code, but my expectation based on all the other tricky code he has successfully implemented is that this will get done once it hits the 'top of the pile'.

Fortunately this is not a really common situation (certainly not rare however), and this workaround is going to work in nearly every instance/ I won't work if there are no hexes nearby & you also need to be careful as you cannot always undo (if there has been an overrun or some HQ moves).

One of the greatest advantages MWIF has over the board game is that the rules are 'enforced' automatically. in this case its a bit is a bit constraining, but in most cases it is great not to have to stop and figure out if a move is 'legal' and what exactly is the supply situation for nearby units when a unit moves changing the path. I can recall impulses grinding to a halt for nearly an hour to hash out a rules issue when playing the board game....

-Remember - 'Have Fun' is the most important 'rule'.





Thanks. For some reason I hadn't thought of that work around.

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RE: The game won't let you swap units - 11/18/2013 5:58:01 PM   
dale1066


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Can Confirm using the Undo function to get around this type of problem, also been using it to test routing and re-routing of resource convoys by rtb'ing a cp and then recomputing then undoing the rtb and computing again. I think the order in which the available routes are calculated seems to matter ? so temporerily shutting down a line to allow another to open then going back and resetting the new route which then selects alternative cps. Bit longwinded but easier then saving and reloading and can be done in the move without actually using any naval moves if you get my drift.

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RE: The game won't let you swap units - 11/18/2013 10:08:02 PM   
Dabrion


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RAW 2.3.1:
quote:

[..] Stacking applies at the end of each step and after each retreat and advance after combat. You cannot voluntarily overstack then [..]


Why not let the player do what he wants during the step. When end of step is pressed, or at the relevant points during the combat forms, do the stacking limit check. In case of overstacked hexes, indicate them in a popup and let the user correct the situation by movement. You would need an indicator for incorrectable constellations, something like: sum( stacking(hex) for hex in adjacent ) >= sum( stacking_max(hex) for hex in adjacent )

You only have to check hexes occupied by units. Actually only hexes occupied by units that have seen action this step. So that it will roughly scale with the average activity limits or the occupied hexes in the worst case.

The workaround using an adjacent hex not at capacity has the flaw that you would have to calculate the movement cost using path the unit would have taken for the swap, the shortest path (if not using explicate movement). Else some units may not be able to make it in bad weather and/or terrain.
Also by RAW 11.11.1 a unit can only move once in each land movement step, but that could be relaxed for usability sake here.

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RE: The game won't let you swap units - 11/20/2013 5:08:04 PM   
ParJ

 

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Does it help getting prio on this feature that it's mentioned in Volume I of the Player's Manual, page 175?


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RE: The game won't let you swap units - 11/20/2013 5:14:14 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

RAW 2.3.1:
quote:

[..] Stacking applies at the end of each step and after each retreat and advance after combat. You cannot voluntarily overstack then [..]


Why not let the player do what he wants during the step. When end of step is pressed, or at the relevant points during the combat forms, do the stacking limit check. In case of overstacked hexes, indicate them in a popup and let the user correct the situation by movement. You would need an indicator for incorrectable constellations, something like: sum( stacking(hex) for hex in adjacent ) >= sum( stacking_max(hex) for hex in adjacent )

You only have to check hexes occupied by units. Actually only hexes occupied by units that have seen action this step. So that it will roughly scale with the average activity limits or the occupied hexes in the worst case.

The workaround using an adjacent hex not at capacity has the flaw that you would have to calculate the movement cost using path the unit would have taken for the swap, the shortest path (if not using explicate movement). Else some units may not be able to make it in bad weather and/or terrain.
Also by RAW 11.11.1 a unit can only move once in each land movement step, but that could be relaxed for usability sake here.

The solution that is partially coded is much simpler. It will let a player overstack land units in a hex during land movement, but then force the player to move a unit out of the overstacked hex to fix overstacking, before he does anything else. If he has no more land moves available, then his only recourse will be to Undo his original move.

Even the smallest opening in permitting overstacking might enable the player to 'game' the system and do something illegal (i.e., not according to the rules).

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