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RE: Patch news (3.5) - 2/21/2015 11:41:02 PM   
SMK-at-work

 

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I see the words...and it sounds encouraging....but can anyone tell me what Ralph just wrote??

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Post #: 121
RE: Patch news (3.5) - 2/22/2015 12:17:39 AM   
BigDuke66


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That he needs 2 more year for the next patch.

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Post #: 122
RE: Patch news (3.5) - 2/22/2015 1:53:35 AM   
ralphtrick

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

That he needs 2 more year for the next patch.

No, 2 years would be for the full 3D port to the iPad using the Unreal Engine. The hard part would be figuring out what to take away and still leave the same game along with making it run fast enough.

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Post #: 123
RE: Patch news (3.5) - 2/22/2015 1:55:03 AM   
ralphtrick

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work
I see the words...and it sounds encouraging....but can anyone tell me what Ralph just wrote??

Norm was an awesome programmer. I'm trying to make TOAW not look funny on the extremely dense displays they now have.


_____________________________

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Blog: http://operationalwarfare.com
---
My comments are my own, and do not represent the views of any other person or entity. Nothing that I say should be construed in any way as a promise of anything.

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Post #: 124
RE: Patch news (3.5) - 2/22/2015 2:23:10 AM   
HPT KUNZ

 

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Ralph, I think I can speak for all, thank you for the effort you are putting in. We understand (well, I am not sure I really understand) what your are up against, but best of luck and godspeed.

cheers

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Post #: 125
RE: Patch news (3.5) - 2/22/2015 4:06:07 AM   
Lobster


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Bah. I-Pad's market share continues to slip below 25%. You need to target the Android OS.

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Post #: 126
RE: Patch news (3.5) - 2/22/2015 11:49:05 PM   
SMK-at-work

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick

quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work
I see the words...and it sounds encouraging....but can anyone tell me what Ralph just wrote??

Norm was an awesome programmer. I'm trying to make TOAW not look funny on the extremely dense displays they now have.



Oh - well that's good then :)

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Post #: 127
RE: Patch news (3.5) - 2/23/2015 12:17:07 AM   
Meyer1

 

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So, Ralph, as long as we have you here, any ETA on the patch?

(somebody has to ask that)

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Post #: 128
RE: Patch news (3.5) - 2/23/2015 4:06:10 AM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Meyer1

So, Ralph, as long as we have you here, any ETA on the patch?

(somebody has to ask that)




Was wondering how long this question would take to appear. Actually was surprised it took so long.

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Post #: 129
RE: Patch news (3.5) - 2/25/2015 5:53:00 PM   
Meyer1

 

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Years waiting but I guess we are not worthy of an answer. Oh well.

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Post #: 130
RE: Patch news (3.5) - 2/25/2015 7:44:28 PM   
BigDuke66


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As if any customer would get even 1% of the ETA questions answered, that simply the way it goes in the gaming business.

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Post #: 131
RE: Patch news (3.5) - 2/26/2015 3:40:21 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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Just a friendly heads up to the TOAW crowd: Erik is in town.....let's cut the grass and put all our front yard junk in the garage
and make everything pretty.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 132
RE: Patch news (3.5) - 2/26/2015 8:32:49 PM   
Lobster


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It's only his annual inspection to kick the horse and see if it still moves.

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Post #: 133
RE: Patch news (3.5) - 2/27/2015 12:52:40 AM   
geozero


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quote:


Norm was an awesome programmer. I'm trying to make TOAW not look funny on the extremely dense displays they now have.



Excuse my complete total ignorance when it comes to programming... I know everyone has been chomping at the bits for 3.5. Tonight I wanted to load TOA3 and could not find my disk. I've purchased this game 3 times and was about to do so again a 4th time but decided to see what was up in the forums.

There has been talk of TOAW 4 for ages. My questions are these:

1) Why are we trying to update TOAW 3 at this point? PC's, OS, graphics, monitors, etc. have all progressed in leaps and bounds. It's like trying to retool a 2 barrel carburetor for a 1979 VW. WHY?

2) You (Ralph, Erik, et al) probably cannot or will not speak about TOAW 4 (due to NDA's etc) yet it would seem to me that since TOAW 3 was written by someone else (Norm K.) and he's not involved AFAIK, and Ralph is trying to reverse engineer the game's DNA, then wouldn't the time, money and resources be better spent on creating a WHOLE NEW GAME that captures the essence of TOAW 3 but in BRAND NEW game engine, graphics, etc????????

3) What would it take in terms of money and resources to write a completely NEW game engine that allows easy mods and that has similar features right out of the box??? Not some watered down limited "East Fron" game with 16 future modules, but a WHOLE NEW GAME like TOAW 3 was that allows you to create ANY battle in ANY era????


To question #3, I think that perhaps a kickstarter or similar campaign could raise funds given enough gamer interest.

As for buying TOAW 3 AGAIN, I've decided after reading all this that it is a complete colossal waste of time to pay for something AGAIN and discover that it is not patched or that there is limited resources available to see patches completed... or interest from Matrix management to push for it.

It used to be that there were teams of game designers on these titles... programmers, graphics people... now all I read is some lone (Ralph) soul tapping away code every chance he gets. It seems complete utterly futile.

The same lack of push and management happened on many games I was "beta tester" or "scenario designer" including the Combined Arms/Battlefield game that is all but vapor ware.

You simply cannot ignore new OS and programming developments. Lack of financial and management push has made a lot of these games obsolete or "under development" for 15+ years!!!



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Post #: 134
RE: Patch news (3.5) - 2/27/2015 4:21:34 AM   
Lobster


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You have bought the same game 3 times? Why would you do that? If you lost the disk or the download just download it again. Support will help you with that. There is no need to buy the game multiple times.

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Post #: 135
RE: Patch news (3.5) - 2/27/2015 12:41:36 PM   
geozero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

You have bought the same game 3 times? Why would you do that? If you lost the disk or the download just download it again. Support will help you with that. There is no need to buy the game multiple times.


Yes over the course of years, moving, PC upgrades and crashes.

I've PM'd Erik... nada.

I don't see a way to d/l it again. I don't have the email confirmations anymore. If this was Steam I'd simply click on it... but there's no info that I can see on my purchase history. The whole Matrix web site is stuck in 1995.



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Post #: 136
RE: Patch news (3.5) - 2/27/2015 12:53:37 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geozero
Yes over the course of years, moving, PC upgrades and crashes.

I don't see a way to d/l it again. I don't have the email confirmations anymore. If this was Steam I'd simply click on it... but there's no info that I can see on my purchase history. The whole Matrix web site is stuck in 1995.

I've had crashes and new PC's and new operating systems that required a hard disk wipe etc. and I'm glad I bought TOAW in a
brick and mortar store in about 2003 or so and I've had to refer to it more than once. Please don't feel like I'm trying to rub it
in here, I assure you that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm just wondering if they still sell it somewhere so you could have a hard
copy of it?

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Post #: 137
RE: Patch news (3.5) - 2/27/2015 1:17:02 PM   
geozero


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Trust me I've looked for my CD copy... the latest which I bought probably less then 2-3 years ago directly from Matrix. Someone at Matrix should be able to see my purchasing history. There should be a way to get the d/l again at the very least. No answer from Matrix.

Like I said, maybe we should wait for TOAW 4, assuming that they can actually get people working on it and this millennium.

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Post #: 138
RE: Patch news (3.5) - 2/27/2015 4:19:58 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geozero

Trust me I've looked for my CD copy... the latest which I bought probably less then 2-3 years ago directly from Matrix. Someone at Matrix should be able to see my purchasing history. There should be a way to get the d/l again at the very least. No answer from Matrix.

Like I said, maybe we should wait for TOAW 4, assuming that they can actually get people working on it and this millennium.


Hey geozero. I've had my pc killed by lightening, hard drives deaths, pc meltdowns, new machines and all I've ever had to do was make a support ticket for a download. You might want to talk to these guys: http://www.matrixgames.com/support/issue.asp

The one thing that you really want to keep a hard copy of next time is your serial number.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 2/27/2015 5:20:52 PM >


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Post #: 139
RE: Patch news (3.5) - 2/27/2015 5:49:41 PM   
geozero


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I think I will send a support ticket... yippee.

As for hard copy... I can't find mine due to moves and probably got thrown out. yeah that sucks.



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Post #: 140
RE: Patch news (3.5) - 2/27/2015 5:53:43 PM   
geozero


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Can't login to the support page - apparently it doesn't remember that I am already logged in. I have to now reset the password and wait for an email. What a crappy server system that can't remember I am logged in here already. Wish they'd just update the whole thing so it is easy to retrieve one's games. I'm done with this crap. Seriously. Get your act together.

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Post #: 141
RE: Patch news (3.5) - 3/5/2015 9:34:14 PM   
Lobster


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So, at one time, long, long ago, we were told that the bmp graphics will no longer be supported. Is this still true?

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Post #: 142
RE: Patch news (3.5) - 3/5/2015 10:18:49 PM   
Telumar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

So, at one time, long, long ago, we were told that the bmp graphics will no longer be supported. Is this still true?


No, they will be supported in the patch.

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Post #: 143
RE: Patch news (3.5) - 3/6/2015 6:43:13 AM   
berto


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Good to hear. I continue to prefer the classic, traditional game graphics.

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RE: Patch news (3.5) - 3/24/2015 1:12:03 AM   
jakobscalpel

 

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I'm not Ralph and I've never seen the code for this game, but I'm a professional programmer and I've read Ralph's posts carefully, as we all have. I've also donated time to an old text based baseball simulator that has similar "problems" to those Ralph described so I have a bit of background. My opinions below.


quote:

1) Why are we trying to update TOAW 3 at this point? PC's, OS, graphics, monitors, etc. have all progressed in leaps and bounds. It's like trying to retool a 2 barrel carburetor for a 1979 VW. WHY?


When the UI and game engine code bases are not separated completely, sometimes modifying within the confines of the existing game code is easier and faster than re-writing from scratch. Rewriting from scratch is an *incredibly* tempting decision to make when presented with old code but it often is not the correct choice. It is hard to describe how many hours of work usually go into a game like TOAW.

quote:

2) You (Ralph, Erik, et al) probably cannot or will not speak about TOAW 4 (due to NDA's etc) yet it would seem to me that since TOAW 3 was written by someone else (Norm K.) and he's not involved AFAIK, and Ralph is trying to reverse engineer the game's DNA, then wouldn't the time, money and resources be better spent on creating a WHOLE NEW GAME that captures the essence of TOAW 3 but in BRAND NEW game engine, graphics, etc????????


Budgets for any game the size and complexity of TOAW are almost certainly far beyond what Matrix would be willing to pay. This stuff is hard and time consuming!

quote:

3) What would it take in terms of money and resources to write a completely NEW game engine that allows easy mods and that has similar features right out of the box??? Not some watered down limited "East Fron" game with 16 future modules, but a WHOLE NEW GAME like TOAW 3 was that allows you to create ANY battle in ANY era????

To question #3, I think that perhaps a kickstarter or similar campaign could raise funds given enough gamer interest.


My complete wild-ass guess? 300k minimum, with dedicated programmers, testers, etc that are willing to work long hours for less than full market value simply because they love the game. Perhaps the TOAW engine is simpler than I suspect and this number is high. But it won't be high by much.


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Post #: 145
RE: Patch news (3.5) - 3/24/2015 3:16:07 AM   
ralphtrick

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jakobscalpel
I'm not Ralph and I've never seen the code for this game, but I'm a professional programmer and I've read Ralph's posts carefully, as we all have. I've also donated time to an old text based baseball simulator that has similar "problems" to those Ralph described so I have a bit of background. My opinions below.
quote:

1) Why are we trying to update TOAW 3 at this point? PC's, OS, graphics, monitors, etc. have all progressed in leaps and bounds. It's like trying to retool a 2 barrel carburetor for a 1979 VW. WHY?


When the UI and game engine code bases are not separated completely, sometimes modifying within the confines of the existing game code is easier and faster than re-writing from scratch. Rewriting from scratch is an *incredibly* tempting decision to make when presented with old code but it often is not the correct choice. It is hard to describe how many hours of work usually go into a game like TOAW.

The code was pretty good. There were only a couple of really bad areas caused by it's DOS origins requiring the use of polling in the dialog boxes and a global mouse variable. I remember that I patched one area where the AI behavior was determined by the mouse location! There were only a few areas like the pathfinder which used global variables abusively.
quote:


quote:

2) You (Ralph, Erik, et al) probably cannot or will not speak about TOAW 4 (due to NDA's etc) yet it would seem to me that since TOAW 3 was written by someone else (Norm K.) and he's not involved AFAIK, and Ralph is trying to reverse engineer the game's DNA, then wouldn't the time, money and resources be better spent on creating a WHOLE NEW GAME that captures the essence of TOAW 3 but in BRAND NEW game engine, graphics, etc????????


Budgets for any game the size and complexity of TOAW are almost certainly far beyond what Matrix would be willing to pay. This stuff is hard and time consuming!

There are also more games that end up in the graveyard than get completed.
http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2014/01/kickstarter_research_highlights_low_delivery_rates_of_game_projects
TOAW also was NOT the first game, it's based on Norm's earlier works.
If you wanted to recreate it, you'd be a lot better of starting with a smaller game with a single focus, then expanding.
quote:


quote:

3) What would it take in terms of money and resources to write a completely NEW game engine that allows easy mods and that has similar features right out of the box??? Not some watered down limited "East Fron" game with 16 future modules, but a WHOLE NEW GAME like TOAW 3 was that allows you to create ANY battle in ANY era????

To question #3, I think that perhaps a kickstarter or similar campaign could raise funds given enough gamer interest.


My complete wild-ass guess? 300k minimum, with dedicated programmers, testers, etc that are willing to work long hours for less than full market value simply because they love the game. Perhaps the TOAW engine is simpler than I suspect and this number is high. But it won't be high by much.

At the Gates is funded with $100K from kickstarter and is currently on Steam pre-sales. Jon Shafer was also the lead designer for Civ 5 for a game with broader appeal, so was able to get funding. I believe that he's still the only developer, hiring artists as needed.
$100-150K is probably more reasonable if you could find a developer/designer willing to work for that. I doubt they'd get that much from kickstarter, though.
If you want to understand the complexity, Quake 3 has nearly 310K lines (including comments and blank lines) TOAW has about 170K.



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Post #: 146
RE: Patch news (3.5) - 3/24/2015 8:05:11 PM   
jakobscalpel

 

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quote:


quote:


My complete wild-ass guess? 300k minimum, with dedicated programmers, testers, etc that are willing to work long hours for less than full market value simply because they love the game. Perhaps the TOAW engine is simpler than I suspect and this number is high. But it won't be high by much.

At the Gates is funded with $100K from kickstarter and is currently on Steam pre-sales. Jon Shafer was also the lead designer for Civ 5 for a game with broader appeal, so was able to get funding. I believe that he's still the only developer, hiring artists as needed.
$100-150K is probably more reasonable if you could find a developer/designer willing to work for that. I doubt they'd get that much from kickstarter, though.
If you want to understand the complexity, Quake 3 has nearly 310K lines (including comments and blank lines) TOAW has about 170K.


Interesting. I must have been in the recent crazy world of silicon valley too long. Those amounts seem so low!

BTW, I love how mouse locations determined the AI behavior. Stuff like that happens to every programmer, even one as good as Norm!

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Post #: 147
RE: Patch news (3.5) - 3/24/2015 11:12:15 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jakobscalpel

quote:


quote:


My complete wild-ass guess? 300k minimum, with dedicated programmers, testers, etc that are willing to work long hours for less than full market value simply because they love the game. Perhaps the TOAW engine is simpler than I suspect and this number is high. But it won't be high by much.

At the Gates is funded with $100K from kickstarter and is currently on Steam pre-sales. Jon Shafer was also the lead designer for Civ 5 for a game with broader appeal, so was able to get funding. I believe that he's still the only developer, hiring artists as needed.
$100-150K is probably more reasonable if you could find a developer/designer willing to work for that. I doubt they'd get that much from kickstarter, though.
If you want to understand the complexity, Quake 3 has nearly 310K lines (including comments and blank lines) TOAW has about 170K.


Interesting. I must have been in the recent crazy world of silicon valley too long. Those amounts seem so low!

BTW, I love how mouse locations determined the AI behavior. Stuff like that happens to every programmer, even one as good as Norm!

Chris,

In case you're a resident of the Mid-Atlanctic region of the colonies, I am still drumming up for more participants of the 3rd annual TOAW meeting. With a tad of luck even the master of Ardennes '44 and Road to Moscow... Rob 'The Doc' Kunz might give us the honour of his presence!

Klink, Oberst

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Post #: 148
RE: Patch news (3.5) - 3/25/2015 1:44:58 AM   
jakobscalpel

 

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Thanks for the offer but I'm about as far from the Mid-Atlantic region as you can be and still be in the continental US

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Post #: 149
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