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RE: T19 Mud slows things down

 
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RE: T19 Mud slows things down - 12/8/2013 3:22:41 AM   
hfarrish

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Toidi

You will not get guards till well into blizzard.



Is this a situational specific comment or a general one? In general, one can get a lot of guards units prior to blizzard if one fights forward, which the new rules thankfully encourage. Have a game going in T24 where I have taken about 3.3M in losses but also have fought the Germans hard and have about 10 Guards divisions pre-blizzard...they will form the core of any assault.


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RE: T19 Mud slows things down - 12/8/2013 3:27:02 AM   
M60A3TTS


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I had a combined 30 guards cavalry and rifle divisions in my game against Mehring the turn before blizzard.

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RE: T19 Mud slows things down - 12/8/2013 3:35:00 AM   
Tom Hunter


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Its situation specific. I took on Saper222 to learn the game, so I was not optimizing for counter attacks in the first 12 or so turns. I also took many losses that will not occur in my second game. Toidi is right, and he is also foreshadowing my blizzard strategy.

I have no opinion on the subject of me winning or losing the game, I don't have the experience to tell, and this AAR is not playing out like the ones I read. My goal is to get better at the game. Saper222 is an excellent teacher, Toidi has provided a lot of useful commentary, and a few others have been helpful as well. Right now my strategic thinking seems to be running 3 turns ahead of Toidi's observations, though he is commenting from the side, and might very well have the same thoughts at the same time if he was looking at the game, and not the AAR.

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Question - 12/8/2013 1:08:34 PM   
Tom Hunter


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If you overbuild a Soviet front, so it has negative CP, but put a portion of the troops far in the rear, say 30 or 40 hexes, does it still lose the ability to send support? Anyone know?

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RE: Question - 12/8/2013 1:22:30 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

If you overbuild a Soviet front, so it has negative CP, but put a portion of the troops far in the rear, say 30 or 40 hexes, does it still lose the ability to send support? Anyone know?


Yes, the malus is for units under the HQ, not just for units under the command range. I tend to do one of two things with stuff I send to the deep rear to recover. Either transfer to one of those 3 rear area Military Districts or over to Stavka. Since both are free of AP cost when you swap back, its quite efficient. The first trick is handy for keeping things organised (ie I have a quick clue as to what I was thinking about 4 turns ago - useful if like me you can forget why you have just walked up the stairs )

< Message edited by loki100 -- 12/8/2013 2:23:44 PM >


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RE: Question - 12/8/2013 2:29:50 PM   
Flaviusx


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Unlike MT, I do not buy into this absurd anglo saxon notion that thrashings are good for the soul. (This is right up there with rum, sodomy and the lash.) The best way to learn the game is to play it against someone at or near your own level and gradually improve along the way.

Getting steamrolled is neither pleasant nor edifying nor even very interesting for the person who is doing the steamrolling. (Unless they are like, you know, sadists.) A good competitive match is the best gaming experience.

You are not going to be able to stuff the experience of many games into one "good" thrashing.

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RE: Question - 12/8/2013 6:11:20 PM   
Shupov


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Speaking from first-hand experience there is something to be learned playing Sapper. Not all the lessons learned are fun and I would not play him again without house rules. I believe the fewer house rules the better and only a couple are definitely needed:

Spam bombing Osinovets to cut off Leningrad from supply - Soviets must put 4xPVO AA there by turn 4 but I don't know if that would provide enough protection. The house rule against spam bombing ports is probably necessary.

After isolating Leningrad Axis must kill the surrounded units by November (if possible) to allow them to come back as reinforcements.

Prohibit both sides using suicide paratroopers to cut rail lines to Leningrad (early game) and AGS (mid-game). (Sapper didn't do this)

I did learn a couple of valuable lessons:

Soviets must put an airbase with each HQ for protection or lose 1-2K men each from a few Stukas every turn. A house rule can be used but it isn't absolutely necessary.

The best play-balancer is random weather. It won't help in June but certainly makes Germans think twice about over-extending supply.

Like it or not, Sapper's extended Lvov opening will become standard until 2x3 does more to prevent it. Until then the Soviets must run away with the remnants of Southern and Southwestern fronts or face defeat in Barbarossa.




< Message edited by Shupov -- 12/8/2013 7:19:01 PM >


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T20 - 12/8/2013 6:40:47 PM   
Tom Hunter


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@Shupov

Iím against house rules, Iím more in the if its built its ok camp. The game does not play historical, look at the late war AARs with the huge numbers of forts. More on that later.

I did see Saper222 ground bombing my troops and killing lots of them earlier in the game, there is less of that going on now, in fact he hit just one hex this turn, as you will see I launched 59 attacks on him. Iím afraid he killed more of my troops in one attack than I did in 59 but at least my experience level is growing.

T20 Lots more bombing, Iíve been experimenting with the way I attack, and I think I am seeing some patterns in the air combat model. For example units which will no longer ground bomb will hit airfields, and vice versa, the AI air commanders hold some of their planes back for other types of missions.

A second observation, I bombed airbases early in the South, and the Axis fighters were winning even when heavily outnumbered. In the North I bombed ground units and some airbases early, but mostly ground units first. Then I hit the airbases, and did quite a bit better, the Germans still shot down more of my planes in air combat, but between air victories and blowing up HS126bs on the ground I did ok. I bombed ground targets 59 times and airbases 17 times. Total losses were 154 to 38, which is not great but its being driven by ground bombing

Iíve also noticed that some ground bombing targets get Luftwaffe help. Iíve started looking for these, flying a single bombing group to hit a hex that can be hit by many groups, and seeing if the enemy fighters show up. I experimented with this in T20, I am going to do it in a more systematic way in T21.

The Germans moved air back to the front, Saper222 is showing 3100 planes again. I pounded the Slovakians last turn, and they are off map, I assume their moral got hurt when they lost 12% of their airforce in a week.

All armies continue to grow, the Red Army is up to 4.77 million men, 40,000 guns, 2600 tanks and 6900 planes. The Wermatcht has 3.4 million men, 33k guns, and 3000 tanks.





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T20 - 12/8/2013 6:47:39 PM   
Tom Hunter


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Iíve been doing a lot of reorganizing during the mud, and also during the turns prior to mud when Saper222 slowed down. This is the area in front of Moscow, in Winter I am going to push with NW front into the difficult terrain North of Moscow, and have Western and Bryansk push South of the city. My strategic goal for all this is keep Saper222ís armies in Moscow from leaving. Iíve put a Stavka army in the front line to allow me to concentrate forces.

The amount of time it takes to get all this done is pretty high, I spend hours on it. I'm enjoying the game, but not sure about the practicality of something that takes that much time. I'm certainly not going to run more than one of these at a time.






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< Message edited by Tom Hunter -- 12/8/2013 7:50:06 PM >

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More T20 - 12/8/2013 6:58:41 PM   
Tom Hunter


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I counter attacked in Crimea. Saper222 is far from his railhead, I have naval supply, the Rumanians are not very good and out of supply. With a bit of luck Iíll bag a couple of divisions. The other thing I want to do is set up the Sea of Azov as an area for flank attacks during the winter. Iíve got airbases on trains heading down South, and more armies forming in the Stalingrad and Caucasus area. I think I can get 4 and maybe even 6 brigade equivalents onto the North coast in one turn if I use paras and amphibious invasion.

Iím having problems because I do not have enough fronts, Iím trying to stack them one behind another to give my offensive more momentum, and I really need one more. Instead, the N. Caucasus MD is filling in for a front.





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More T20 - 12/8/2013 7:05:33 PM   
Tom Hunter


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In the center Iím setting up two armies to try to punch through and hopefully threaten Saper222s position in the South. Iíve got 5 turns to get them in place, and Saper has not flown recon over the Kalinin Front troops. Stalin put Budenney in charge last turn, I will swap him out before things get hot. I think Saper222 is planning to pull back here, his forces are kind of light and it makes sense. I want the area for the rail lines, the crossing south of Voronezh is very important if I want to take back very much of the South.

Iíve pushed my front up to contact with Saper222 and this has helped me advance the rail line 2 or 3 hexes, and had the nice side effect of boosting my manpower from 2080 to 2113 over the last few turns. You can see that on this map.






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More T20 - 12/8/2013 7:15:29 PM   
Tom Hunter


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In the South I found the German rail head. This is one of the few big successes of my recon, which is still low quality. Iíve lost the Pnzers and there are large areas that I can fly over without seeing anything, but that does not mean nothing is there, it just means my pilots do not know what to look for.

When winter comes I am going to try to force the Donets crossing, but I suspect that the attacks further North will be what forces Saper222 back. I would really like to push his railhead back if I can. Itís a long way, so I am not sure if that will work or not.

Iím hoping for some comments on the strategy here, the armies are not in the tactical positions they need to be at the start of the snow period, so pointing that out will be redundant.

Iíve also got Stavka armies building in the rear, partly because the Frontís are filling up fast and have no more capacity, and partly because reserves are good to have. Iím beginning to think that I should set up a reserve army in each front and either have Stavka take a portion of the line, or have those troops even further back in the chain. Thoughts?





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< Message edited by Tom Hunter -- 12/8/2013 8:17:30 PM >

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RE: T19 Mud slows things down - 12/8/2013 9:55:39 PM   
M60A3TTS


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It would be helpful if you could take a screenshot of the production screen with the scroll bar pulled down so we can see ___SPECIAL____

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For M60A3TTS - 12/8/2013 10:44:51 PM   
Tom Hunter


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Screenshot from the very end of Saper222s T20




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RE: For M60A3TTS - 12/8/2013 11:11:07 PM   
Pelton


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Something to remember its not how many your have, but the level of your morale.



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RE: For M60A3TTS - 12/8/2013 11:35:34 PM   
M60A3TTS


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An army with great morale and no food or bullets won't fare well.

Ok, so you've lost about a quarter of your vehicle fleet. Vehicles in the units look good, vehicles in the motor pool look fine too with twice as many available as what you currently need. Supply-wise you should be in good shape. You will lose some trucks as you advance during blizzard and as your army grows so will demand on the truck fleet.

Manpower at 2100 isn't great but it will do for the time being. Keep your forward elements that are doing the fighting refitted and don't be afraid to let other units go without.

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RE: For M60A3TTS - 12/8/2013 11:54:19 PM   
Pelton


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Lol thk M60 thk

An army with all the food and bullets don't fare well with poor morale.

There are 2 sides to every coin, not one.

Morale is 75% of this game if not more, that has never changed.



< Message edited by Pelton -- 12/9/2013 12:55:49 AM >


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RE: For M60A3TTS - 12/9/2013 12:03:14 AM   
M60A3TTS


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Yes Pelton, but over on the Third Reich side, it's all milk and honey when it comes to logistics. When have you ever had to be concerned with how many trucks are in your motor pool? A big Red Army has other concerns it has to deal with in addition to morale.

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RE: For M60A3TTS - 12/9/2013 12:28:43 AM   
Michael T


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The Hvy IND losses are terrible. Even if he survives he will have supply problems from 43 on.

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RE: For M60A3TTS - 12/9/2013 12:49:56 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Yes Pelton, but over on the Third Reich side, it's all milk and honey when it comes to logistics. When have you ever had to be concerned with how many trucks are in your motor pool? A big Red Army has other concerns it has to deal with in addition to morale.


I don't know much about SHC (1 game), but MT's advise on SHC is always (99%) right.

Germany did more with less, HISTORICAL.


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@ Micheal T - 12/9/2013 12:14:06 PM   
Tom Hunter


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I read on the forums to find out what to evacuate. I used Walloc's guide when possible, and by T5 (or maybe 4, I don't really remember) was doing things in the optimal way.

The forums are full of posts that say Heavy Industry does not matter.

Can you post why you think it does matter? That would be very helpful to know for future games. Thanks for your post and your thoughts on the subject.

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RE: @ Micheal T - 12/9/2013 1:09:48 PM   
Pelton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

I read on the forums to find out what to evacuate. I used Walloc's guide when possible, and by T5 (or maybe 4, I don't really remember) was doing things in the optimal way.

The forums are full of posts that say Heavy Industry does not matter.

Can you post why you think it does matter? That would be very helpful to know for future games. Thanks for your post and your thoughts on the subject.


At first we ( MT-Flaviusx and many others) thought it did not matter, but after some people started getting late into the war it was discovered it does matter.

Some HVY industry should be railed out, how much we are not really sure.

Flaviusx has always left 50 arm pts west of rivers for GHC to destroy. Why? Because vs a good GHC player you need to rail some ground units and you will get behind the curve so to speak. In my 2 current on going games because of a poor rail strategy I destroyed 150+ in one game by blizzard and 100 so far in the other and its only turn 9.

The huge down fall many undefeated SHC players make is not assuming someone is really good as GHC.

If you assume the GHC player is one of the best you should be leaving behind 50 arm pts, you will be able to save everything else easly plus some HVY industry.




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RE: @ Micheal T - 12/9/2013 1:25:54 PM   
loki100


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I can't find it back, but someone did a brilliant schematic guide to how industry and production works in WiTE. I had it downloaded but it got lost when I had to reformat my laptop.

If I recall, primarily, HI generates supply. And you have a fair bit off map or in the deep rear. Given the cost of HI vs AP for rail, I suspect people leave it due to the rough feeling of not losing more than 50 APs but still having some capacity for operational redeployments.

In effect, a lack of AP has a very immediate cost - all those things that require 'A' (incl the vital 42 squad upgrades) won't happen. Usually with the Soviets the big issue is supply delivery (ie trucks).

From some AARs, I think there is a bit of a trade off, more HI allows you to support a bigger army in 43-45. But then that is all but a given, as that probably means you lost less (industry and units) in 41-42.

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RE: @ Micheal T - 12/9/2013 1:37:16 PM   
Pelton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

I can't find it back, but someone did a brilliant schematic guide to how industry and production works in WiTE. I had it downloaded but it got lost when I had to reformat my laptop.

If I recall, primarily, HI generates supply. And you have a fair bit off map or in the deep rear. Given the cost of HI vs AP for rail, I suspect people leave it due to the rough feeling of not losing more than 50 APs but still having some capacity for operational redeployments.

In effect, a lack of AP has a very immediate cost - all those things that require 'A' (incl the vital 42 squad upgrades) won't happen. Usually with the Soviets the big issue is supply delivery (ie trucks).

From some AARs, I think there is a bit of a trade off, more HI allows you to support a bigger army in 43-45. But then that is all but a given, as that probably means you lost less (industry and units) in 41-42.


I believe MT figured it out first, but when the Russian army gets over 9 million it becomes and issue.

In my game vs Huge it was a big factor as his army hit 9 million in June 1943. Huge did a good job not letting me get pockets, but he lost allot of land and industry.



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RE: @ Micheal T - 12/9/2013 1:40:54 PM   
Callistrid

 

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I still wish to find that guide. Could somebody give me a link?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

I can't find it back, but someone did a brilliant schematic guide to how industry and production works in WiTE. I had it downloaded but it got lost when I had to reformat my laptop.

If I recall, primarily, HI generates supply. And you have a fair bit off map or in the deep rear. Given the cost of HI vs AP for rail, I suspect people leave it due to the rough feeling of not losing more than 50 APs but still having some capacity for operational redeployments.

In effect, a lack of AP has a very immediate cost - all those things that require 'A' (incl the vital 42 squad upgrades) won't happen. Usually with the Soviets the big issue is supply delivery (ie trucks).

From some AARs, I think there is a bit of a trade off, more HI allows you to support a bigger army in 43-45. But then that is all but a given, as that probably means you lost less (industry and units) in 41-42.


I believe MT figured it out first, but when the Russian army gets over 9 million it becomes and issue.

In my game vs Huge it was a big factor as his army hit 9 million in June 1943. Huge did a good job not letting me get pockets, but he lost allot of land and industry.





< Message edited by Callistrid -- 12/9/2013 2:41:49 PM >

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RE: @ Micheal T - 12/9/2013 1:48:57 PM   
Flaviusx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

I read on the forums to find out what to evacuate. I used Walloc's guide when possible, and by T5 (or maybe 4, I don't really remember) was doing things in the optimal way.

The forums are full of posts that say Heavy Industry does not matter.

Can you post why you think it does matter? That would be very helpful to know for future games. Thanks for your post and your thoughts on the subject.


At first we ( MT-Flaviusx and many others) thought it did not matter, but after some people started getting late into the war it was discovered it does matter.

Some HVY industry should be railed out, how much we are not really sure.

Flaviusx has always left 50 arm pts west of rivers for GHC to destroy. Why? Because vs a good GHC player you need to rail some ground units and you will get behind the curve so to speak. In my 2 current on going games because of a poor rail strategy I destroyed 150+ in one game by blizzard and 100 so far in the other and its only turn 9.

The huge down fall many undefeated SHC players make is not assuming someone is really good as GHC.

If you assume the GHC player is one of the best you should be leaving behind 50 arm pts, you will be able to save everything else easly plus some HVY industry.



Well, not always. It was you who convinced me to sit down and figure out how to streamline an evacuation to deal with a grossly accelerated German advance. I concluded that the only way to get ahead of this was to write off everything west of the Dnepr and start railing out big concentrations from turn 3 on while you still had the rail cap to do it.

But yes at some point you can no longer ignore heavy industry. There's a lot of slack there (unlike armaments) but you can't throw it all away. Roughly speaking, you can write off everything west of Moscow and Rostov so far as heavy industry goes, but past that it's going to cause problems down the line.


< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 12/9/2013 2:53:32 PM >


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RE: @ Micheal T - 12/9/2013 4:51:45 PM   
gingerbread


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The 8-point HI in Leningrad is nice to have, but it is expensive.

There are a couple of 4-pointers that are choice evac targets. If you leave the Kharkov vehicles, you can move 3 of those 4xHI.

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Turn 21 is in, Mud is over - 12/9/2013 6:57:50 PM   
Tom Hunter


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T21 I moved the BA 10 Armored car factory, and 26 points of the T60 factory out of Stalingrad because I had some rail left over after troop movements.

Red Army has 4.8 million men, 42,000 guns, 2800 hundred tanks and 7100 aircraft, Germans are at 3.3 million men, 33k guns, 3100 tanks and 3200 planes. Ground losses were marginal.

Iíve filled out all my fronts except for Transcaucasus, which will be full soon. As you can see from the map I broke contact a bit so if Saper222 is planning to hit my lines he has to burn a few MPs to get there.

If Saper222 does not hit me in the snow I plan to start pushing forward in my turn. Anything I can do to move the rail up and start the meat grinder helps I think.

In the air took fairly heavy losses this turn, as with last turn my losses in my earlier attacks were greater than my losses in the later rounds of attacks. Saper222 keeps the Hs126s closer to the front, Iíve managed to destroy about 120 of the original 314, so maybe I am affecting his recon? He certainly flies less of it. Iím hitting him partly to train my airforce, but I may have stumbled into a useful strategy. Saper222 was doing a lot of recon and using it to make smarted decisions, if I am blinding him that should help me.

The massive bombing campaign is causing a significant increase in the quality and moral of the Red Airforce, Experience wise in the level bombers Iíve got two groups at 57, three at 56, and 14 at 55, Tac bombers have a different spread, 1x58, 1x57, 2x56 and 55, and 3 at 54. A month or two ago I had many groups with xp in the 30s now there is one. The fighter bomber groups are a much better picture, with three groups in the 80s, over a dozen in the 70s and many in the 60s.

On the ground my army is smaller than many, but the moral is getting better, a good chunk of the army is at 50 (one full screen) or higher, and only 18 of the 349 infantry units are below 40. The cavalry moral is even better, because cavalry.

First turn of snow coming up, the last turn of mud went to Saper222 a few minutes ago.







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RE: Turn 21 is in, Mud is over - 12/9/2013 8:12:38 PM   
jwolf

 

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Tom, I am worried about the snow turns.  You're gearing up for the winter offensive (at least that's the impression I got), but Sapper has all his mech divisions rested, refit, fueled and ready to hit you during the snow turns.  Granted he doesn't have a lot of time, but I wouldn't be shocked to see him pull off a couple of medium sized pockets or maybe even a disastrous, soul crushing mega pocket.  He can leave a skeletal force maintaining his defensive lines and forts while he hits you hard with everything else.  I'm particularly concerned because you admitted a few turns back that you lost track of the panzers, so he could be set up just about anywhere.

BTW kudos to you for persisting through this campaign in spite of the torrid Axis pace of advance, especially the miracle move through about 200 miles of heavy forest in one week to cut the northern RR.

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RE: Turn 21 is in, Mud is over - 12/9/2013 8:40:51 PM   
Tom Hunter


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@jwolf You are right of course, and I am even more worried about the missing pnz than you, trust me

So what I have done is scout his lines, there are no pnz in the jumpoff hexes, and there are none visible behind. There is some motorized inf at the North end of the top most stopline on the map I posted.

The huge blank area in the middle South really does seem to be empty. There is no air or ground there, which is what you would expect if you think Saper222 will pull back in the South. I think he will pull back in the South center, but the concentration of airpower at Moscow and Stalino makes me think he will try to hold both the far south and the center North around Moscows. I am pretty confident that there is no huge pnz army hiding at Voronezh.

He could potentially attack out of Moscow, or out of Stalino Rostov. Both Axis have valuable targets to grab, the Yaroslav-Gorki area, and Stalingrad. Most of the factories (a bit of heavy industry is still there) are gone from the area East of Moscow. Stalingrad has all its arm, but the vehicles and the T60s are out.

If he does launch a snow ball fight, it will likely be in the South.

I think if Sapper222 charges he will burn 10ish mp reaching my lines, and then burn much of the rest punching into them. The typical hex has 15-25k men, with lots of air close by and an L1 or 2 fort. All of this is easy for him to smash, but he will not have 20 mp left after he does. The armies in the front all have armies behind, infront of Stalingrad one army is forward, and a second is behind moving up (moving on the map) further North there are two armies forward, and a complete front behind.

I am increasingly confident that my land moves are able to prevent massive pockets (but not smaller ones) and Saper222 sent me a note about that when I abandoned Moscow. Paraphrasing he said: 'it looks like you have figured out how fast the pnz can move.' He had been setting up a giant pocket around Moscow, and I ran before the trap was finished.

So I think he can do a lot of damage, but not create big multi army pockets. He gets three turns of snow, if he times things wrong and I time them right he could be in the open in the blizzard. If I time things wrong and he takes the gamble I could lose a front worth of armies in the next few turns.

(in reply to jwolf)
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