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Supply consumption - explanation

 
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Supply consumption - explanation - 10/6/2013 10:26:38 AM   
Yaab


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OK, I think I have misunderstood supply consumption.

Below are some numbers. The numbers are for a static situation with no fighting, construction, army expansion etc.

Let's, say total Chinese production of supply per month is 131,000 supplies.

Bases (or rather LCUs and airgroups stationed in the bases) in China require 36,700 supplies. Bases try to gather three times as much, so they hold about 110,000 supplies per month.

But I have also LCUs outside bases. Their supply need is 35,000. They seem to gather just the number needed, not twice or thrice that much as is the case with bases. I guess this number is per month too.

Thus, total supply consumption for bases and LCUs in the field would be 145,000 (110,000 + 35,000). It seems I have a deficit of - 14,000 supplies each month (131,000 produced - 145,000 consumed = -14,000 supplies lacking). Wow!

But the deficit is no a deficit at all.Why?

LCUs in bases cost 36,700 per month. The ones in the field cost 35,000. Together the upkeep cost for both is almost 72,000 supplies. This amount is lost each month (mostly food, some medicine, some bullets etc.)

So each month, I produce 131,000 supplies and 72,000 is lost for good. I have 59,000 left. How? Bases just try to collect x 3 the amount needed by the LCUs in bases, but the supplies are just gathered and not consumed by LCUs in bases.

Now, it means I have actually 59,000 supplies left each month in China. That amounts to 710,000 supplies per year. Remember, this is for hypothetical situation with no fighting, army expansion, construction etc.

Given the above, is my math correct?

Thanks.

< Message edited by Yaab -- 10/6/2013 12:00:46 PM >
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RE: Supply consumption - explanation - 10/6/2013 10:34:18 AM   
Cannonfodder


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Seems to be correct yes.

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RE: Supply consumption - explanation - 10/6/2013 12:28:34 PM   
PaxMondo


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When units don't have enough supply, devices will change from ready to disorganized, and eventually will "die". In china the allies suffer from this a lot due to the supply deficit. You have all these huge corps sitting around with low AV as they have not enough supply to repair devices. One of the early war allied challenges in China is to get the supply in balance with the number of troops; either fewer troops or more supply. If you are able to solve this, China becomes over-powering against the IJ. Rarely happens though until late war ... kinda historically accurate in that way.

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RE: Supply consumption - explanation - 10/6/2013 12:54:25 PM   
Yaab


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But if situation is static (no fighting at all, no bases changing hands, no reinforcements etc.) I will have accumulated a surplus of 2,400,000 supply points by June 1945 ( 3,5 years x 710,000 supply) as the Chinese.


< Message edited by Yaab -- 10/6/2013 1:30:19 PM >

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RE: Supply consumption - explanation - 10/6/2013 2:40:51 PM   
PaxMondo


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units consume supply every day to stay active ..

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RE: Supply consumption - explanation - 10/6/2013 2:58:57 PM   
Cannonfodder


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Yaab, you also have to consider the supply you lose by just moving it around in China..

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RE: Supply consumption - explanation - 10/6/2013 4:52:48 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Yaab, you also have to consider the supply you lose by just moving it around in China..

+1

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RE: Supply consumption - explanation - 10/6/2013 4:59:33 PM   
pompack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Yaab, you also have to consider the supply you lose by just moving it around in China..


+1.

Of course first you have to ground everybody (movement uses a lot more supply than sitting), ground all a/c (no training allowed either), and especially no replacements (sorry about all of those empty Chinese formations). Now supply will accumulate until it has to move to less fortunate locations and thus pays a LOT in supply movement attrition. Of course any that doesn't move will suffer spoilage attrition.


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RE: Supply consumption - explanation - 10/6/2013 5:06:58 PM   
Mike Solli


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Man, you guys are full of all kinds of good news.

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RE: Supply consumption - explanation - 10/6/2013 6:35:33 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Man, you guys are full of all kinds of good news.

Yeah, allies in China in '42 is challenging. Kinda like IJ in China in '45.

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RE: Supply consumption - explanation - 10/6/2013 9:00:35 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Man, you guys are full of all kinds of good news.

Yeah, allies in China in '42 is challenging. Kinda like IJ in China in '45.


I think the goal is that there is no China in 1945...

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RE: Supply consumption - explanation - 10/6/2013 10:53:38 PM   
Cannonfodder


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The China game is turning into "let's hide in Chungking or we all die" if you play without stacking rules..

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RE: Supply consumption - explanation - 10/6/2013 11:16:18 PM   
Alfred

 

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Yaab,

Your OP is too simplistic if you really want to know how supply consumption operates as it conflates consumption with movement. As a starting point I suggest you read my Logistics 101 thread:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2878790&mpage=1&key=supply�

supplemented by the following points.

1. The supply requirement listed in bases and LCUs is an estimate of the monthly requirement. It is not really an accurate prediction of what will be consumed over the following 30 days.

2. The listed supply requirement can and does fluctuate daily.

3. Command HQs add a "secret" 25k to the listed supply requirement. It is well known that such HQs try to draw an additional 25k supply to the base but players tend to overlook it is coded as adding to the supply requirements thresholds.

4. A base will only export to another base if it has an excess of supply. The threshold for excess is 3x the listed supply requirement.

5. A base which is short of 3x it's listed supply requirement may import supply from a base which has an excess. How often it can import is determined by the supply path cost.

6. Supply which moves overland between bases can be lost up to 20%. Again the supply path cost comes into play.

7. Bases with [(2x) + (100)] their listed supply requirements become supply depots for LCU replacements. Hence a base which holds between 2x and 3x it's listed supply requirements can see a fluctuation in its supply depot as supply is consumed in providing replacements. LCUs in a friendly base taking replacements will only draw down supply from that single base but LCUs out in the field or in an enemy base can draw down from any friendly base which meets the threshold and the supply path cost (minimum supply path = 10).

8. Any combat involving an LCU will see that LCU's supply consumption increase. Even a LCU which has no flak but is air bombed, in other words is is purely the recipient of an attack and does not fight back, is considered to be in combat. The additional consumption depends on the severity of combat but can amount up to a maximum of double it's normal non active supply consumption.

9. As LCUs recover disabled devices, their supply consumption increases.

Alfred


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RE: Supply consumption - explanation - 10/7/2013 6:24:11 AM   
Yaab


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Many thanks for your thoughts and ideas.

The reason I have started this thread is because I mistook supply requirements with supply consumption. Looking from the point of supply requirements, China is starving, but looking from the point of supply consumption the situation isn't that bad. It seems that supply distribution is a bigger problem in China than supply production.

Is the below situation optimal setting for China?

a) move as many of your LCUs to the front as possible. Any unit sitting in a base between the production centers and the front creates a supply bottleneck (base gathers x 3 supply needed) - less supply at the battlefront. If there is a garrison requiremnt in a base, garrison tha base with units that have smallest supply footrpints - BFs, construction regts, light corps etc.

b) create as much supply as close to the frontline ( it may be beneficial to repair i.e LI in Changsha) and commit to defend those places

c) at the frontlines, move as many units to defend outside bases, so frontline bases can easily push the supplies to them (possibly sit in a hex with a good road next to a base).



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RE: Supply consumption - explanation - 10/7/2013 4:43:54 PM   
Numdydar

 

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In a word No.

You seem to forget that supply that moves around has a percentage of that supply 'lost' simplly by moving. So you will actually lose MORE supply by doing what you suggest. This is why units sit in bases so that the supply they need does not increase because they are out in the wilds somewhere due to the transportation costs of just getting the supplies to them..

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RE: Supply consumption - explanation - 10/7/2013 6:03:17 PM   
Yaab


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I guess there is no easy way to see how much supply is lost during movement, that is why I forget about it.

If I produce 130,000 supplies per month in China, how much will be lost on average due to movement? Is 10% of monthly produce a good guess?

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RE: Supply consumption - explanation - 10/8/2013 4:54:02 AM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

I guess there is no easy way to see how much supply is lost during movement, that is why I forget about it.

If I produce 130,000 supplies per month in China, how much will be lost on average due to movement? Is 10% of monthly produce a good guess?


Already answered in post #13.

Alfred

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RE: Supply consumption - explanation - 10/8/2013 5:49:00 AM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Many thanks for your thoughts and ideas.

The reason I have started this thread is because I mistook supply requirements with supply consumption. Looking from the point of supply requirements, China is starving, but looking from the point of supply consumption the situation isn't that bad. It seems that supply distribution is a bigger problem in China than supply production.

Is the below situation optimal setting for China?

a) move as many of your LCUs to the front as possible. Any unit sitting in a base between the production centers and the front creates a supply bottleneck (base gathers x 3 supply needed) - less supply at the battlefront. If there is a garrison requiremnt in a base, garrison tha base with units that have smallest supply footrpints - BFs, construction regts, light corps etc.

b) create as much supply as close to the frontline ( it may be beneficial to repair i.e LI in Changsha) and commit to defend those places

c) at the frontlines, move as many units to defend outside bases, so frontline bases can easily push the supplies to them (possibly sit in a hex with a good road next to a base).





Yes and no.

Distribution is a major issue due to the relatively poor transportation network in China. Mind you, Symon has developed an even poorer internal transportation network intended for use with the DaBabes family of mods.

1. Look at Urumchi. It is one of the three Chinese bases which produces oil and refines it to fuel. It is 24 main road hexes away from the nearest "industrial" city which is Lanchow. Because the supply path between the two cities is 100 - 72 = 28, excess supply and raw materials would move only once per week. In reality it doesn't even move that often because Lanchow has no heavy Industry, thus no need to import fuel and its own raw material production adequately covers the necessary feedstock for its own industry. Thus Urimchi's surplus supply and raw materials would be required much further away than Sian (which is the next nearest industrial city to Urimchi but like Lanchow, adequately serviced by its own domestic raw material production and if absolutely required, can import from Lanchow). Note that the additional distance beyond Lanchow to Sian is a further reduction in the supply path from 28 down to only 15.

The fuel and excess oil produced in Urumchi is therefore too far away to be used in the industrial heartland of China which is Chungking/Chengtu/Kunming/Changsha.

2. You cannot just simply vacate the cities.

(a) Garrison requirements not met do cut the supply path completely, thus worsening the distribution problem.

(b) Airbases are found only in cities, not in the countryside. You cannot afford to completely cede total control of the air to the enemy. Enemy air assets must be forced to remain in China and not be sent off to other theatres where their contribution to the enemy war effort may be considerably more valuable. Plus the Chinese airforce is not a complete loss; it can be, and it should be, used intelligently; not just to create CAP traps but also to provide recon and achieve other tasks.

(c) Not all terrain outside cities is good for fighting a defensive campaign. Quite often the best terrain plus the usual better base fortifications than that achievable out in the field, means that the stand should be made in the city itself.

(d) Much of the Chinese supply comes from daily auto generation and this is automatically lost if the city falls. Units within the city have first call on this auto supply.

3. I have said for a long time that the mantra which is commonly trotted out about repairing facilities and the need to have a 500 day repayment period otherwise it isn't worthwhile to repair them, is too simplistic and often just wrong. There are many factors which need to be taken into account in determining whether to repair industry, so yes, there are circumstances where it does make sense to repair industry even if the 500 pay back period does not apply. Maybe one day I'll detail just how complex the issue of repairing industry really is.

4. I have already pointed out in post #13 above that as disabled devices repair, the consumption of supply increases accordingly. The more you position your Chinese forces to improve their access to supply, the more supply they will need. This is completely independent of any manoeuvring you undertake, or any combat imposed upon you by the enemy. You just have to accept that the Chinese theatre is unlike all other Allied theatres where availability of supply is usually not a problem.


There are many threads extant which discuss how to handle China. This current thread, notwithstanding it's title and how the OP was framed, is really just another thread on the same subject. One cannot just divorce supply from all the relevant factors in assessing the problems posed by the Chinese theatre. More importantly, one cannot devise a good plan without taking into account what the opponent is doing.

Alfred

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RE: Supply consumption - explanation - 10/8/2013 6:36:53 AM   
Yaab


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Ok, there is a well stocked base. Its supply requirement is 500, because there is a static LCU inside a base. Base tries to collect 1500 (500 x 3) supplies. The base has a total stockpile of supply of 4500.

In a hex next to the base there is another LCU. The hex is a mountain hex with no road/railine connecting it to the base. I hit "5" on computer keyobard and the game shows "75" in the mountain hex, thus the unit in the field should be getting supplies three time per week - medium pull(45 -89 range) and long pull (0-10).

Now, how much supplies does a base move? It has an excess of 3000 supplies, the LCU needs 1500. Does it move 1500 supplies in one go or is there some capacity limit (let's assume the base has no max draw limits)? Does it send supply in increments of 100, 500, 1000? Since the LCU needs 1500 supplies and get supplies three times a week, maybe it gets supplies 10 times a month in increments of 150 (150 x 10 = 1500)?

With each such supply movement how much supply is lost? Manual p.189 gives me a terrain supply cost of 25. That corresponds to "75" (100 - 25 =75) I see on the map hovering over that mountain hex. If the base sends i.e 100 supplies three times a week to the LCU, how much supply will be lost each time? 25%? 20% (maximum threshold as per post 13 point 6) or some random between 1-20%?


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RE: Supply consumption - explanation - 10/8/2013 3:34:51 PM   
Yaab


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quote:

2. You cannot just simply vacate the cities.

(a) Garrison requirements not met do cut the supply path completely, thus worsening the distribution problem.


Alfred, I think I have misunderstood the supply routine once again. Let's see.

The Chungking basin is the industrial heartland of China. Let's assume I want to move as much supply from the Chungking basin to to the Changsha area where heavy fighting takes place. I thought that vacating a string of bases between Chungking and Changsha would be the best way to achieve that. Why? Every unit sitting in a base between Chungking and Changsha means such a base will collect x 3 supplies, thus releasing fewer supplies to the front (bases only export supplies to another base if they have more than x3 on hand). Once vacated, all bases between Chunkging and Changhsa should move supplies every day (they are all on rail and main road hexes), which can be seen by pressing "5" for each base along the the Chungking - Changsha road - the cost is just in 91-95 range.

I thought I was creating a supply superhighway, yet you say, that if there is no supply need in the intermediary bases NO supply will move at all? That I have to indicate ( probably by posting some small LCUs or aircraft detachemnts in those cities) that there is a supply need? My thinking was that if I have producer (Chungking) > empty bases' supply highway > terminus (Changsha) + LCUs around Changsha, more supply can be realeased for the frontline. If it is your reasoning which is correct , then the Chinese will not be able to use their supply surplus to the fullest, because some of the supply will inevitably be trapped in the bottleneck bases along the road with bases happily gathering supplies for idle garrisons whose only role is to indicate to the code, that the supplies should be pushed in their direction.


BTW, if Chungking is selected and "5" is pressed, then tha value in Changsha hex is 69, meaning Chungking should push its supplies to Changsha three times a week even if no intermediary bases were present. Is there a hex limit to how far supply can be pushed? Do we need intermediary bases between Chungking and Changsha for successful delivery of supply in Changsha?


< Message edited by Yaab -- 10/8/2013 3:50:48 PM >

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RE: Supply consumption - explanation - 10/8/2013 3:58:42 PM   
Numdydar

 

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The issue is that unless a base has an excess of supply, nothing gets pushed out anywhere. You have to accept that you as the player have very little actual control to get supplies and resources to move around.

As Alfred has also stated, if there is no demand, nothing will move or if the need is too far away. As Japan I have captured Urumchi. I am constantly getting messages that the oil stockpile there is maxed out. Why? Because even though I have 'created' a demand for oil at Shanghi by assigning a tanked TF to load oil there, it is too far away for the oil from Urumchi to supply more that a few points a week (if that). The same applies to supplies.

As stated before, China has too many troops and too little supplies to support all of them. Japan has a differnt problem in that not as many troops (so can easily be supported) but any offensive operations require huge amounts of supplies to be sent in. Which of course takes supplies away from other areas of the war.I remember taking two TFs of 100K supplies each into China and thinking that should hold them for a while . I was very suprised to see several turns later that the ports I unloaded them in were back under 20K . So neither side, especially the Chinese, really never has the supplies that they need to be 100% operational. The only reason Japan can make inraods in China if they commit to it is that the Chinese are worse off than they are

You will not be any to do anything with China unlil, a) the Burma road reopens and/or b) you recapture a major port so the Allies can dump the huge number of supplies China needs. As this normally will not happen until 1944, you just need to accept that China needs to make the best of a bad situation as best it can.

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RE: Supply consumption - explanation - 10/9/2013 3:36:06 PM   
Yaab


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Well, at least in China the Japs can dump their supplies via ships in Wuchow and Hankow.

Since I cannot control the supply movement, the best thing would be just to create as much supply as possible close to the frontlines. Repairing damaged supplies would be one way to achieve that. Another would be to keep garrisons in those frontline bases as small as possible. Around Chnagsha , those three bases next to it have the supply requirement of 10,000 supplies, while they could easily live with 3,000 supplies and release the remaining 7,000 supplies to Changsha and neigbouring hexes. Their starting garrisons are just idle supply-hogs.

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RE: Supply consumption - explanation - 10/9/2013 4:18:05 PM   
Numdydar

 

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Actually the best way is to not put supplies at the front at all. Unless you are playing against the AI of course .

The best way to defend China is to pull back (so supply has less travel loss) and defend behind rivers whenever possible. Once you get your defensive line set, don't move as this causes attrition and again a loss of supply replacing equipment (unless you turn replacements off for your troops.)

Also do not pack China with planes either since every time they do anything it is a supply loss. CAP is the best mission your planes in China can do. While you can fly sweeps and kill some planes, I find not worth the supply cost. At least with CAP you only use supply when they fly so the supply is used at the right time

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RE: Supply consumption - explanation - 10/11/2013 6:45:50 AM   
Yaab


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Given the above, supplying China by Ledo-China airlift seems futile. You bring supplies from Ledo to Tsuyung, Kunming and Chengtu ( shortest routes) but you cannot count on these supplies actually leaving Kunming mountains and Chungking basin for the front cities like Changsha or Sian. The supplies will simply accumulate away from the front. Seems you would need transport planes within China itself to help distribute this stockpiles.

< Message edited by Yaab -- 10/11/2013 7:27:36 AM >

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RE: Supply consumption - explanation - 10/11/2013 10:26:16 AM   
Alfred

 

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The Ledo-Kunming airlift is not futile. You should back up your statements with some concrete facts.

1. Unless you do something quite irregular, such as sending many Chinese divisions to live in Kunming, the listed supply requirement at Kunming should be around the 1000 mark (give or take a 100 points).

2. Kunming is already, without any assistance provided by airlifting supply in from Ledo, a net exporter of supply. Look at the figures.

(a) whilst the Burma Road remains open, the daily auto dumping of 500 supply points into Tsuyung is largely surplus to requirements there, and therefore the excess supply will generally move towards Kunming and beyond

(b) Kunming itself generates daily 360 supply points: 80 from auto supply, 80 from Light Industry and (subject to having sufficient fuel), 200 from Heavy Industry

Assuming Kunming's listed supply requirement is 1200 (usually it should be much closer to 1000), that means the units located there only consume 40 supply points daily. That leaves a minimum net daily surplus of 120 supply points (just from auto supply and Light Industry) and whenever sufficient fuel is present (which it often is) an additional 200 points from Heavy Industry. Any additional supply flown in merely adds to the substantial excess supply capacity of Kunming.

3. Even if you were correct, which you are not, it would still make sense to fly in supply to Kunming to provide another rear area "rally" point, in addition to Chungking, for Chinese units to recover disabled devices and fill up their TOE relatively safe from Japanese air raids. Having 2 or more "rally" points considerably complicates the task before the Japanese player.

4. There is already a transport unit located in China.


Air lifting of supplies into China will never make China awash with supplies and heavy operational losses to the transports often ensues, although the operational losses can be mitigated to a certain extent if the pilots have been trained up, a task seldom undertaken by players for transport aircraft pilots.

Alfred

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RE: Supply consumption - explanation - 10/11/2013 1:58:54 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
Air lifting of supplies into China will never make China awash with supplies and heavy operational losses to the transports often ensues, although the operational losses can be mitigated to a certain extent if the pilots have been trained up, a task seldom undertaken by players for transport aircraft pilots.

Alfred

Which, BTW, is entirely consistent with RL. There were huge losses, but they did do it, and it did keep the Chinese army from starving and held their morale sufficiently high to survive until the road was re-opened and trucks were making the delivery's again. The Devs got this aspect, along with many others, extremely well done. Kudo's to the Dev Team!

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RE: Supply consumption - explanation - 10/11/2013 2:34:01 PM   
Banzan

 

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Its quite time consuming to get transport crews up in experience, but once they are past 50 exp, the op losses are reduceed a lot. Still bad, but not as bad as with 45-50 exp crews. Nowdays i don't send any transport crew into duty before they reached 51+ exp. Same for long range partol and 4E bomber crews.

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RE: Supply consumption - explanation - 10/11/2013 5:02:37 PM   
1EyedJacks


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

quote:

2. You cannot just simply vacate the cities.

(a) Garrison requirements not met do cut the supply path completely, thus worsening the distribution problem.


Alfred, I think I have misunderstood the supply routine once again. Let's see.

The Chungking basin is the industrial heartland of China. Let's assume I want to move as much supply from the Chungking basin to to the Changsha area where heavy fighting takes place. I thought that vacating a string of bases between Chungking and Changsha would be the best way to achieve that. Why? Every unit sitting in a base between Chungking and Changsha means such a base will collect x 3 supplies, thus releasing fewer supplies to the front (bases only export supplies to another base if they have more than x3 on hand). Once vacated, all bases between Chunkging and Changhsa should move supplies every day (they are all on rail and main road hexes), which can be seen by pressing "5" for each base along the the Chungking - Changsha road - the cost is just in 91-95 range.

I thought I was creating a supply superhighway, yet you say, that if there is no supply need in the intermediary bases NO supply will move at all? That I have to indicate ( probably by posting some small LCUs or aircraft detachemnts in those cities) that there is a supply need? My thinking was that if I have producer (Chungking) > empty bases' supply highway > terminus (Changsha) + LCUs around Changsha, more supply can be realeased for the frontline. If it is your reasoning which is correct , then the Chinese will not be able to use their supply surplus to the fullest, because some of the supply will inevitably be trapped in the bottleneck bases along the road with bases happily gathering supplies for idle garrisons whose only role is to indicate to the code, that the supplies should be pushed in their direction.


BTW, if Chungking is selected and "5" is pressed, then tha value in Changsha hex is 69, meaning Chungking should push its supplies to Changsha three times a week even if no intermediary bases were present. Is there a hex limit to how far supply can be pushed? Do we need intermediary bases between Chungking and Changsha for successful delivery of supply in Changsha?



If you are trying to move supplies to the Changsha area you might consider moving HQ units into the area...

I've always thought the lemming principle might work to the advantage of the China theatre. By that I mean pick a Japanese weak spot away from the areas in China you consider vital and attack with low-quality troops. Units destroyed goto Chungking @ 1/3rd their level? Set them to no replacement. Rinse/repeat until your assets no longer strip you of your supplies.

I like Alfred's thoughts on the air bridge. I'd never really looked at the numbers for that type of operation as I pretty much exclusively play the side of Japan.

If you haven't read the logistics thread Alfred is referring to I suggest reading it... It's nice when someone gives you a fish to eat. It's empowering when you learn to catch your own fish.



_____________________________

TTFN,

Mike

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 28
RE: Supply consumption - explanation - 10/11/2013 8:10:32 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 655
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poznan, Poland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The Ledo-Kunming airlift is not futile. You should back up your statements with some concrete facts.

1. Unless you do something quite irregular, such as sending many Chinese divisions to live in Kunming, the listed supply requirement at Kunming should be around the 1000 mark (give or take a 100 points).

2. Kunming is already, without any assistance provided by airlifting supply in from Ledo, a net exporter of supply. Look at the figures.

(a) whilst the Burma Road remains open, the daily auto dumping of 500 supply points into Tsuyung is largely surplus to requirements there, and therefore the excess supply will generally move towards Kunming and beyond

(b) Kunming itself generates daily 360 supply points: 80 from auto supply, 80 from Light Industry and (subject to having sufficient fuel), 200 from Heavy Industry

Assuming Kunming's listed supply requirement is 1200 (usually it should be much closer to 1000), that means the units located there only consume 40 supply points daily. That leaves a minimum net daily surplus of 120 supply points (just from auto supply and Light Industry) and whenever sufficient fuel is present (which it often is) an additional 200 points from Heavy Industry. Any additional supply flown in merely adds to the substantial excess supply capacity of Kunming.

3. Even if you were correct, which you are not, it would still make sense to fly in supply to Kunming to provide another rear area "rally" point, in addition to Chungking, for Chinese units to recover disabled devices and fill up their TOE relatively safe from Japanese air raids. Having 2 or more "rally" points considerably complicates the task before the Japanese player.

4. There is already a transport unit located in China.


Air lifting of supplies into China will never make China awash with supplies and heavy operational losses to the transports often ensues, although the operational losses can be mitigated to a certain extent if the pilots have been trained up, a task seldom undertaken by players for transport aircraft pilots.

Alfred



Alfred, I totally agree with your analysis. Ledo-China airlift works well if you want to create a festung in mountains around Kunming or a staging area for a foray into Burma. Still,Kunming can live reasonably well on its own produce and Burma Road subsidy and airflifted supply is a bonus. I would like these bonus supplies to be moved to other parts of China, and if they cannot be pushed further on overland, than the airlift is of marginal significance.

This is also a problem with the Chungking basin, which produces lots of supply. Ideally, I would like the supply produced there to be moved into three directions: Kunming, Changsha and Sian. These three routes are long but at least one of them has great potential, namely Changsha, which consist entirely of main road-major railine hexes. But, since we cannot control supply movement overland, then a lot of what Numdydar says makes sense: pull back, shorten your lines and get closer to your supply sources in Chungking.

As for transport planes, if I understand correctly, they use 1/3 supply point per mission. You get some transport aircraft early which can carry 3 supply points per plane (those planes have 6000 capacity). Thus, an airlift inside China may make sense. 30 such planes carry 90 supply points, and use 10 supplies for their mission. I guess it is less wasteful than pushing supplies overland.


< Message edited by Yaab -- 10/11/2013 8:13:03 PM >

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 29
RE: Supply consumption - explanation - 4/15/2014 8:12:48 AM   
Yaab


Posts: 655
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poznan, Poland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

3. Command HQs add a "secret" 25k to the listed supply requirement. It is well known that such HQs try to draw an additional 25k supply to the base but players tend to overlook it is coded as adding to the supply requirements thresholds.


OK, let me see if I understand this correctly.

Chungking has the base requirements of 3000 supply points. It tries to gather 3000 x 3 = 9000 supplies.

In Chungking, there is a command HQ. It tries to gather 25,000 supplies at the base. Is this 25,000 supplies added to the 9000 supplies already gathered by the base, resulting in 34,000 supplies at the base or is the 9000 supplies already included in the HQ demand and the HQ only looks for additional 16,000 supplies ( 25,000 needed by HQ - 9,000 supplies already gathered by the base = 16,000 supplies "missing")?

Also, when is Chungking exporting its supply to other bases? Once it has more than 9,000 supplies (base requirement) or 25,000 supplies (command HQ requirement)? If it is the latter, then Chungking represents a major bottleneck in pushing supplies the to frontlines in China.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 30
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