OT-I think the majority of people here can pass this. Iknow T can!

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OT-I think the majority of people here can pass this. Iknow T can!

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OT-I think the majority of people here can pass this. I... - 9/23/2013 7:19:43 PM

AW1Steve

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I honestly think the majority of forumites can pass this test. And that includes those who are not Americans. I'd bet money T can!

http://news.yahoo.com/video/whoknew-american-history-know-us-060000812.html

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RE: OT-I think the majority of people here can pass thi... - 9/23/2013 8:00:03 PM

obvert

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Being an educator, these kinds of survey results are difficult to hear about, but not unexpected.

In the UK anyone applying for indefinite leave to remain must take a 25 question test on the civics, culture and history of the UK. The questions are not easy. (Things like; 'What is the percentage of Sihks in the UK according to the 2010 census?' Or 'What are the patron Saints of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and when are their feast days?')

.

I passed this last year after two stressful weeks of study, and my fiancee, who also holds a masters degree, was studying about five hours a night for several weeks just this past month to get through this. We know several people who are well educated and didn't take it seriously, and so failed their first try.

Some practice tests (unofficial and with some odd wording)
http://www.theuktest.com/life-in-the-uk-test/1

The US equivalent is a set of 100 questions of which ten are chosen to be responded to orally during the citizenship interview. Not quite as intensive, but there are some tough ones if you don't get the benefit of multiple choice.

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.d72b75bdf98917853423754f526e0aa0/?vgnextoid=afd6618bfe12f210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=afd6618bfe12f210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD

In my photo classes I always link to history when I can, and it's amazing what students don't know even in a good school. The Crimean War (photographed by Roger Fenton, the first photography during a war), was a real stumper. Not one knew who fought who or when it was. They all have trouble with dates and periods of time earlier than the 20th century.

< Message edited by obvert -- 9/23/2013 8:11:47 PM >

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RE: OT-I think the majority of people here can pass thi... - 9/23/2013 8:20:40 PM

catwhoorg

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From: Uk expat lving near Atlanta
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I got 3 right.

Don't know the order of presidents well enough (yet).

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RE: OT-I think the majority of people here can pass thi... - 9/23/2013 8:43:20 PM

Feltan

Posts: 797
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From: Kansas
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If an American adult fails that test, they should not be allowed to reproduce.

Regards,
Feltan

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Post #: 4

RE: OT-I think the majority of people here can pass thi... - 9/23/2013 8:45:45 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 7904
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Status: online

The US citizenship test has been made harder in the past few years. In the mid-2000s I volunteer-taught a prep course for immigrants and then it was the infamous "50 questions." Very simple, often one word answer, questions and the same for everyone. No essay type. All verbal. The test now requires discourse with the examiner to answer the questions and thus a lot more exposure of a lack of English fluency.

In most US schools history and civics are long gone, replaced with Social Studies. It is what it is and we get what we teach. Or don't.

I looked at the first two pages of the UK test. I could get about 70% probably with some of the old "eliminate-two-and-guess." One thing that struck me was how many questions are directly or tangentially on religious issues and topics. I know why that is in the British system and history, but it's still jarring.

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RE: OT-I think the majority of people here can pass thi... - 9/23/2013 8:46:57 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan

If an American adult fails that test, they should not be allowed to reproduce.

Regards,
Feltan

But passing would demonstrate that they know such a law would be unconstitutional.

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RE: OT-I think the majority of people here can pass thi... - 9/23/2013 9:14:44 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan

If an American adult fails that test, they should not be allowed to reproduce.

Regards,
Feltan

But passing would demonstrate that they know such a law would be unconstitutional.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

I looked at the first two pages of the UK test. I could get about 70% probably with some of the old "eliminate-two-and-guess." One thing that struck me was how many questions are directly or tangentially on religious issues and topics. I know why that is in the British system and history, but it's still jarring.

The actual tests of course don't have the overlap and not nearly so much fluff (Christmas dinner is there, but not so often) and there are a plethora of the harder statistics questions. To study for the test i took these and other practice tests and passed probably 95% of the time. Taking the actual test though I was pressed to answer the necessary 18 questions with a definitive feeling of knowledge (out of 24 total). The others I may have also gotten right, but i really wasn't sure> Strangely they don't give a score or answers after the test.

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RE: OT-I think the majority of people here can pass thi... - 9/23/2013 9:24:01 PM

geofflambert

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Columbus did not prove the world was round, everyone knew it was who had any education, and the sailors certainly knew. It was widely known all the way back to the ancient Greeks. They taught us that myth about flat earthers in abundance when I was a kid. It was bull then. This guy was remarkably close in his calculation of Earth's diameter.

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RE: OT-I think the majority of people here can pass thi... - 9/23/2013 9:25:14 PM

mike scholl 1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan

If an American adult fails that test, they should not be allowed to reproduce.

Regards,
Feltan

I Second that motion...

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RE: OT-I think the majority of people here can pass thi... - 9/23/2013 9:56:57 PM

AW1Steve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Columbus did not prove the world was round, everyone knew it was who had any education, and the sailors certainly knew. It was widely known all the way back to the ancient Greeks. They taught us that myth about flat earthers in abundance when I was a kid. It was bull then. This guy was remarkably close in his calculation of Earth's diameter.

That all depends on who you were as to what you knew.

Sailors DID NOT know. Some did. Many did not. Most theorized. But in a time before it was possible to calculate accurate longitude and latitude , the only way to navigate was by "dead reckoning". The trouble with that is it was often accurate. As in DEAD accurate. If you hadn't gone there , you didn't know the way (recorded in a log called a RUDDER , which was closely guarded as a state and guild secret) you might well wind up dead.

Like Jimmy Buffet says "don't try to describe the ocean if you haven't seen it!".

So if you were a Portuguese navigator , or their English allies you'd KNOW it was round. Others suspected or believed it was round.

But I agree a lot of teachers then, as now , are not qualified (at least the way we would want them to be) for what they teach. I recall trying to explain to a pair of high school history teachers that the USA was allied with the SOUTH KOREANS , not the North in the Korean war. Then a few minutes later having to explain that the USA was aligned with the SOUTH VIETNAMESE , not the north , during Vietnam. They did however get the parties right in the American Civil War.

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RE: OT-I think the majority of people here can pass thi... - 9/23/2013 10:13:35 PM

AW1Steve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Columbus did not prove the world was round, everyone knew it was who had any education, and the sailors certainly knew. It was widely known all the way back to the ancient Greeks. They taught us that myth about flat earthers in abundance when I was a kid. It was bull then. This guy was remarkably close in his calculation of Earth's diameter.

I'm sorry. I didn't think to ask. Were you talking about everyone on GORN knowing the earth was round in Columbus time?

Why didn't you just land and eat us?

Bad navigation?

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RE: OT-I think the majority of people here can pass thi... - 9/23/2013 10:14:46 PM

AW1Steve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan

If an American adult fails that test, they should not be allowed to reproduce.

Regards,
Feltan

Then how would ever get any politicians?

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RE: OT-I think the majority of people here can pass thi... - 9/23/2013 10:45:09 PM

Treetop64

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History isn't the only thing many of my fellow citizens have trouble with.

Just saying the word "math" strikes paralyzing fear in many. I've tutored math at community colleges, and have often found the issue isn't that students aren't smart enough to "get it" - because they are for the most part, but they have been taught from a young age to fear anything mathematical, no matter how simple, and have an ingrained psychological barrier as a result. They treat math as though it's some mystical black art that only a precious few will ever understand.

Back on topic, to learn that such a percentage didn't know that the United States' adversary during the Cold War was the Soviet Union is alarming.

IMO, I think students would do a better job of learning history if more emphasis was placed on the "how" and "why" of events, instead of just rigidly memorizing a list of dusty old dates and names. One would think that learning the relevancy of events and the drama associated with them would make remembering the names and dates come much more naturally.

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RE: OT-I think the majority of people here can pass thi... - 9/23/2013 11:03:15 PM

AW1Steve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Treetop64

History isn't the only thing many of my fellow citizens have trouble with.

Just saying the word "math" strikes paralyzing fear in many. I've tutored math at community colleges, and have often found the issue isn't that students aren't smart enough to "get it" - because they are for the most part, but they have been taught from a young age to fear anything mathematical, no matter how simple, and have an ingrained psychological barrier as a result. They treat math as though it's some mystical black art that only a precious few will ever understand.

Back on topic, to learn that such a percentage didn't know that the United States' adversary during the Cold War was the Soviet Union is alarming.

IMO, I think students would do a better job of learning history if more emphasis was placed on the "how" and "why" of events, instead of just rigidly memorizing a list of dusty old dates and names. One would think that learning the relevancy of events and the drama associated with them would make remembering the names and dates come much more naturally.

I couldn't agree with you more! Despite a high school diploma , I found myself as new Navy recruit with horrible math skills. Before I began my class "A" school I found myself in the hands of Petty officer Bell from Georgia , also a high school graduate. I two very crammed weeks I found more proficientcy in basic math skills then anything I acquired in years of public (and some private) education. What he called "basic farm math" .

And I can tell you distinctly where I developed a absolute passion for history. In my sophomore year in high school I had a history teacher who was we would today call a "re-enactor". Revolutionary war , civil war , the frontier, and all the periods in between , he'd show up in the appropriate costume , ready to make history live and breath. No one missed class when he did "the mountain men" in every gory detail!

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RE: OT-I think the majority of people here can pass thi... - 9/24/2013 12:30:14 AM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 7904
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

The actual tests of course don't have the overlap and not nearly so much fluff (Christmas dinner is there, but not so often) and there are a plethora of the harder statistics questions. To study for the test i took these and other practice tests and passed probably 95% of the time. Taking the actual test though I was pressed to answer the necessary 18 questions with a definitive feeling of knowledge (out of 24 total). The others I may have also gotten right, but i really wasn't sure> Strangely they don't give a score or answers after the test.

If it weren't multiple choice I think my score would go below 25%. On the history stuff multiple answers make it more possible to get into date ranges. For the Hadrian's Wall one helps if you can recognize Latin proper nouns. And so on. But feast days? Nope. And the minutae of British election laws and procedures and the like I would be similarly out to lunch.

It seems from this test that they really want a long-term visitor (I assume this is for a green-card equivalent?) to fit into the dominant culture and not just be able to navigate contact with government agencies.

Not giving a score probably violates accepted pedagogical norms. OTOH, if you know you only missed by two answers you don't study as hard for next time.

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RE: OT-I think the majority of people here can pass thi... - 9/24/2013 12:37:16 AM

Terminus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

I honestly think the majority of forumites can pass this test. And that includes those who are not Americans. I'd bet money T can!

http://news.yahoo.com/video/whoknew-american-history-know-us-060000812.html

4 out of 4. But all the answers are in the text block above the questions, so that's not saying much.

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RE: OT-I think the majority of people here can pass thi... - 9/24/2013 12:55:08 AM

AW1Steve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

I honestly think the majority of forumites can pass this test. And that includes those who are not Americans. I'd bet money T can!

http://news.yahoo.com/video/whoknew-american-history-know-us-060000812.html

4 out of 4. But all the answers are in the text block above the questions, so that's not saying much.

So T, when do you look into getting a green card?

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RE: OT-I think the majority of people here can pass thi... - 9/24/2013 1:20:26 AM

Terminus

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I'm not emigrating anywhere any time soon.

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RE: OT-I think the majority of people here can pass thi... - 9/24/2013 2:49:48 AM

Gunner98

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

And I can tell you distinctly where I developed a absolute passion for history. In my sophomore year in high school I had a history teacher who was we would today call a "re-enactor". Revolutionary war , civil war , the frontier, and all the periods in between , he'd show up in the appropriate costume , ready to make history live and breath. No one missed class when he did "the mountain men" in every gory detail

As can I! There was a war game club in my high school, mentored by a geography teacher! I didn't take a single history class in high school but have spent my life studying it and could probably teach it now! War games did that

B

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RE: OT-I think the majority of people here can pass thi... - 9/24/2013 6:33:49 AM

Chris H

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quote:

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

I got 3 right.

Don't know the order of presidents well enough (yet).

Me to. Know idea who John Roberts is.

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RE: OT-I think the majority of people here can pass thi... - 9/24/2013 7:32:14 AM

Apollo11

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus
Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

I honestly think the majority of forumites can pass this test. And that includes those who are not Americans. I'd bet money T can!

http://news.yahoo.com/video/whoknew-american-history-know-us-060000812.html

4 out of 4. But all the answers are in the text block above the questions, so that's not saying much.

Same here... BTW, I only had to think harder about order of the first four US presidents...

I also agree with Kristian that having 4 possible answers below the question (i.e. 1 correct and 3 false) makes this very easy - if you have at least some knowledge you can always find the right answer from it... the sad truth is that education level has fallen almost everywhere... <SIGH>

Leo "Apollo11"

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RE: OT-I think the majority of people here can pass thi... - 9/24/2013 10:17:02 AM

Terminus

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I wasn't referring to the multiple choices, but the text block above them. If you read that, all the answers are there.

That "quiz" doesn't test historical knowledge, but ability to read.

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RE: OT-I think the majority of people here can pass thi... - 9/24/2013 12:13:16 PM

Terminus

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But that said, I knew 3 of the 4 answers in advance. Forgot that John Adams was Washington's successor...

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RE: OT-I think the majority of people here can pass thi... - 9/24/2013 12:33:21 PM

catwhoorg

Posts: 596
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From: Uk expat lving near Atlanta
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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Some practice tests (unofficial and with some odd wording)
http://www.theuktest.com/life-in-the-uk-test/1

I found an error in the very first question.
Vindolanda is not PART of Hadrians Wall. It is a supply fort situated a few miles back from it (and in fact predates the wall).

Having visited that site for over 30 years (most recently this summer), I am pretty sure of this.

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RE: OT-I think the majority of people here can pass thi... - 9/24/2013 1:03:23 PM

Feltan

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From: Kansas
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I'm not emigrating anywhere any time soon.

When you do, you should consider Newark, New Jersey. It is a lot like Denmark.

Regards,
Feltan

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Post #: 25

RE: OT-I think the majority of people here can pass thi... - 9/24/2013 1:22:20 PM

Terminus

Posts: 41050
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I'm not emigrating anywhere any time soon.

When you do, you should consider Newark, New Jersey. It is a lot like Denmark.

Regards,
Feltan

Let me guess, you've never visited either place?

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RE: OT-I think the majority of people here can pass thi... - 9/24/2013 3:19:53 PM

Feltan

Posts: 797
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From: Kansas
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I'm not emigrating anywhere any time soon.

When you do, you should consider Newark, New Jersey. It is a lot like Denmark.

Regards,
Feltan

Let me guess, you've never visited either place?

I've been to both, I was guessing you hadn't been to Newark.

Regards,
Feltan

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Post #: 27

RE: OT-I think the majority of people here can pass thi... - 9/24/2013 6:13:56 PM

SenToku

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Math is a major problem. At work I have had to teach more than one technician how to do basic triconometric function, like sin or cos value and Pythagoras. These guys are supposed to be able to read technical drawings, but are lost when there is a central angle and diameter drawn in there.

Once explained, the comments are usually "Oh, is that all? Why didn't they teach this at school?"
To which I am always tempted to answer "They did, you just weren't listening."

With history, I agree with Goethe; "He who can't make account of last three thousand years, is living fron hand to mouth."

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RE: OT-I think the majority of people here can pass thi... - 9/24/2013 6:50:21 PM

Terminus

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From: Denmark
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I'm not emigrating anywhere any time soon.

When you do, you should consider Newark, New Jersey. It is a lot like Denmark.

Regards,
Feltan

Let me guess, you've never visited either place?

I've been to both, I was guessing you hadn't been to Newark.

Regards,
Feltan

Just curious, which part of Denmark did you visit? Because there's not a lot of them that are as ****ed up as Newark.

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RE: OT-I think the majority of people here can pass thi... - 9/24/2013 7:23:25 PM

AW1Steve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I'm not emigrating anywhere any time soon.

I was suggesting that you could, not that you should.

It's good to always have options.

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