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Looking for Books with lots of stats - 9/14/2013 10:16:55 PM   
Gary Childress


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Looking for some good books with LOTS of warship stats, including some of the more subjective stats like maneuverability. Currently I have both Conway's 1906-1921 and 1922-1946 but the stats are a bit slim. Things like range, fuel bunkerage etc are not covered. Ideally I'd like to find comprehensive stats for all the different ship types of pretty much every navy from 1920-1946 or so.

I'm currently eyeing M J Whitley's series of books on each warship type but I think he only covers Battleships, Cruisers and Destroyers. Ideally I'd like to get a bit more comprehensive. I have "Warships of the Imperial Japanese Navy 1869-1945 by Jentshura, Jung and Mickel and it seems to give most of the stats I need. Can anyone suggest other books out there that might be comparable or even better?

Thanks in advance!



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Favorites and/or other Great Games from Matrix :

1. War in the Pacific/ Admiral's Edition
2. Panzer Corps
3. Commander: Europe at War
4. John Tiller's Campaign Series
Post #: 1
RE: Looking for Books with lots of stats - 9/14/2013 11:30:08 PM   
SenToku

 

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Jane's Fighting ships of WWII, also you might find some old Jane's annuals somewhere, but WWII and older are pretty much collector's items. Besides, they weren't that accurate; 1949 Jane's listed Yamoto as 45'000 tons and 16 in guns.

(in reply to Gary Childress)
Post #: 2
RE: Looking for Books with lots of stats - 9/15/2013 12:22:17 AM   
Gary Childress


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SenToku

Jane's Fighting ships of WWII, also you might find some old Jane's annuals somewhere, but WWII and older are pretty much collector's items. Besides, they weren't that accurate; 1949 Jane's listed Yamoto as 45'000 tons and 16 in guns.


Thanks SenToku, I have Jane's Fighting Ships of WWII. Unfortunately it appears to have many inaccuracies. So ideally I'm looking for something better.

EDIT: Not sure but I'm guessing that most of the inaccuracies are due to military secrecy of the time and that the stats haven't been since updated as military information from WW2 has become declassified.

< Message edited by Gary Childress -- 9/15/2013 12:33:17 AM >


_____________________________

Favorites and/or other Great Games from Matrix :

1. War in the Pacific/ Admiral's Edition
2. Panzer Corps
3. Commander: Europe at War
4. John Tiller's Campaign Series

(in reply to SenToku)
Post #: 3
RE: Looking for Books with lots of stats - 9/15/2013 12:44:52 AM   
John 3rd


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If you can afford it buy Jentshura's Warships of the Imperial Japanese Navy, 1869-1945. FABULOUS but very expensive since it is not in print.


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RE: Looking for Books with lots of stats - 9/15/2013 12:55:39 AM   
Gary Childress


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

If you can afford it buy Jentshura's Warships of the Imperial Japanese Navy, 1869-1945. FABULOUS but very expensive since it is not in print.



Already have that one too. See OP. I'm really pretty tempted to get M J Whitley's books. I've seen part of the Battleships edition on Google books. Looks pretty informative. Anyone have info on his Cruisers and DDs books? Are they about the same as the BB book?

EDIT: I actually found Jentshura's book in the gift shop at the Pensacola Naval Air Museum back about 5 years ago when I went for a vacation.

< Message edited by Gary Childress -- 9/15/2013 12:57:13 AM >


_____________________________

Favorites and/or other Great Games from Matrix :

1. War in the Pacific/ Admiral's Edition
2. Panzer Corps
3. Commander: Europe at War
4. John Tiller's Campaign Series

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 5
RE: Looking for Books with lots of stats - 9/15/2013 1:50:52 AM   
Gary Childress


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Now for the German Navy I'm looking at two possible books currently. I don't really want to get both of them but rather the better of the two from a statistics standpoint. Both are published by Naval Institute Press which I have the highest esteem for:

The German Navy in World War Two: a reference guide to the Kriegsmarine, 1935-1945, by Jak P. Mallmann Showell

or

German Warships, 1815-1945, by h Gröner, Dieter Jung, Martin Maass

Anyone familiar with either of these? I know MateDow recommended the latter one to me. What about the former? which is the better book from a statistical standpoint?

Thanks.

_____________________________

Favorites and/or other Great Games from Matrix :

1. War in the Pacific/ Admiral's Edition
2. Panzer Corps
3. Commander: Europe at War
4. John Tiller's Campaign Series

(in reply to Gary Childress)
Post #: 6
RE: Looking for Books with lots of stats - 9/15/2013 2:34:21 AM   
SenToku

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

quote:

ORIGINAL: SenToku

Jane's Fighting ships of WWII, also you might find some old Jane's annuals somewhere, but WWII and older are pretty much collector's items. Besides, they weren't that accurate; 1949 Jane's listed Yamoto as 45'000 tons and 16 in guns.


Thanks SenToku, I have Jane's Fighting Ships of WWII. Unfortunately it appears to have many inaccuracies. So ideally I'm looking for something better.

EDIT: Not sure but I'm guessing that most of the inaccuracies are due to military secrecy of the time and that the stats haven't been since updated as military information from WW2 has become declassified.


Actually, it was more like systematic underestimation of Japanese capabilities. Military intelligence classified Yamoto only in late 1944. They gave it beam about 10% less than Iowa and guns that were equal to older US 16in weapons.

Similar data was true with torpedoes; US intel gave IJN ship launched torpedoes values that were inferior when compared to Mk 15 and sub launched ones range and speed that were just bellow Mk 10. Type 93 was only tested in late 1943. Jane's got their intel from these reports (which become public extremely quickly). Same was true with aircraft. I think most mistakes found in book today have their roots in these "estimates".

(in reply to Gary Childress)
Post #: 7
RE: Looking for Books with lots of stats - 9/15/2013 3:45:15 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 11068
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline
Sorry...shows how fast I read your Posting...


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Post #: 8
RE: Looking for Books with lots of stats - 9/15/2013 3:59:18 AM   
Gary Childress


Posts: 5525
Joined: 7/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SenToku


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

quote:

ORIGINAL: SenToku

Jane's Fighting ships of WWII, also you might find some old Jane's annuals somewhere, but WWII and older are pretty much collector's items. Besides, they weren't that accurate; 1949 Jane's listed Yamoto as 45'000 tons and 16 in guns.


Thanks SenToku, I have Jane's Fighting Ships of WWII. Unfortunately it appears to have many inaccuracies. So ideally I'm looking for something better.

EDIT: Not sure but I'm guessing that most of the inaccuracies are due to military secrecy of the time and that the stats haven't been since updated as military information from WW2 has become declassified.


Actually, it was more like systematic underestimation of Japanese capabilities. Military intelligence classified Yamoto only in late 1944. They gave it beam about 10% less than Iowa and guns that were equal to older US 16in weapons.

Similar data was true with torpedoes; US intel gave IJN ship launched torpedoes values that were inferior when compared to Mk 15 and sub launched ones range and speed that were just bellow Mk 10. Type 93 was only tested in late 1943. Jane's got their intel from these reports (which become public extremely quickly). Same was true with aircraft. I think most mistakes found in book today have their roots in these "estimates".


Yes. "Systematic underestimation" because the real numbers were guarded secrets by the Japanese, Germans, Italians, etc. Essentially the same thing I'm talking about.

_____________________________

Favorites and/or other Great Games from Matrix :

1. War in the Pacific/ Admiral's Edition
2. Panzer Corps
3. Commander: Europe at War
4. John Tiller's Campaign Series

(in reply to SenToku)
Post #: 9
RE: Looking for Books with lots of stats - 9/15/2013 5:11:59 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 11068
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

Looking for some good books with LOTS of warship stats, including some of the more subjective stats like maneuverability. Currently I have both Conway's 1906-1921 and 1922-1946 but the stats are a bit slim. Things like range, fuel bunkerage etc are not covered. Ideally I'd like to find comprehensive stats for all the different ship types of pretty much every navy from 1920-1946 or so.

I'm currently eyeing M J Whitley's series of books on each warship type but I think he only covers Battleships, Cruisers and Destroyers. Ideally I'd like to get a bit more comprehensive. I have "Warships of the Imperial Japanese Navy 1869-1945 by Jentshura, Jung and Mickel and it seems to give most of the stats I need. Can anyone suggest other books out there that might be comparable or even better?

Thanks in advance!




Should have read this much more carefully!

I did not know Whitley did a book on DDs. Is it as good as his BBs and CAs?


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Reluctant Admiral Mod:
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(in reply to Gary Childress)
Post #: 10
RE: Looking for Books with lots of stats - 9/15/2013 5:23:09 AM   
msieving1


Posts: 450
Joined: 3/23/2007
From: Missouri
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SenToku


Actually, it was more like systematic underestimation of Japanese capabilities.


There may have been some of that, but Jane's was not particularly accurate. I remember reading the 1917 edition, which reported that the British R class battleships had no armor belt and relied solely on bulges for side protection, and that the Repulse and Renown were capable of 40 knots speed.

(in reply to SenToku)
Post #: 11
RE: Looking for Books with lots of stats - 9/15/2013 5:28:49 AM   
Gary Childress


Posts: 5525
Joined: 7/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

Looking for some good books with LOTS of warship stats, including some of the more subjective stats like maneuverability. Currently I have both Conway's 1906-1921 and 1922-1946 but the stats are a bit slim. Things like range, fuel bunkerage etc are not covered. Ideally I'd like to find comprehensive stats for all the different ship types of pretty much every navy from 1920-1946 or so.

I'm currently eyeing M J Whitley's series of books on each warship type but I think he only covers Battleships, Cruisers and Destroyers. Ideally I'd like to get a bit more comprehensive. I have "Warships of the Imperial Japanese Navy 1869-1945 by Jentshura, Jung and Mickel and it seems to give most of the stats I need. Can anyone suggest other books out there that might be comparable or even better?

Thanks in advance!




Should have read this much more carefully!

I did not know Whitley did a book on DDs. Is it as good as his BBs and CAs?



Not sure. I tried looking it up on Google Books but there was no textual sample. The BB book had a sample of the first 60 pages or so and it looked good to me. Do you have the one on CAs? If so what do you think of it? Does it cover as many stats as the BB book?

_____________________________

Favorites and/or other Great Games from Matrix :

1. War in the Pacific/ Admiral's Edition
2. Panzer Corps
3. Commander: Europe at War
4. John Tiller's Campaign Series

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 12
RE: Looking for Books with lots of stats - 9/16/2013 4:44:52 PM   
kgp

 

Posts: 4
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From: Chapel Hill, NC
Status: offline
Have you looked at "Fleets of World War II" by Richard Worth?
Some statistics, but much commentary about the strengths and
weaknesses of various ship classes.

ken


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Post #: 13
RE: Looking for Books with lots of stats - 9/17/2013 5:41:25 AM   
MateDow


Posts: 217
Joined: 8/6/2002
Status: offline
My personal recommendations...

For the US:
Friedman's design series (US Carriers, US Battleships, etc) has a lot of data about US designs. They are a little pricey ($60ish new) but I have found them completely worth the money. They are also nice for showing the evolution of US designs with information on some of the unbuilt designs.

For battleships:
Garzke and Dulin's books on battleships. They are getting dated, but they are some of the best books for WW2 battleships. There are three books; one for Allied battleships, one for Axis & neutrals, and one for US. Once again, you are probably going to pay a fair amount ($100+ for the one at Amazon) for a used copy.

For Japan:
Jentschura's Warships of the Imperial Japanese Navy (as was mentioned earlier).
Watt's Japanese Warships of WW2

For British battleships:
Burt's battleships books are being republished in an updated version. There is one that focuses on WW2 ships. I like the whole series.

For other British:
Friedman has books on British Cruisers and Destroyers that are good.

For French:
Jordan's French Battleships and French Cruiser books are very good.

Hopefully, that is enough money spent for you. None of these have maneuverability data that I've noticed, but still have a lot of good information.

(in reply to kgp)
Post #: 14
RE: Looking for Books with lots of stats - 9/17/2013 5:09:40 PM   
John 3rd


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From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline
Thanks MateDow. I just bought a copy of Watt's Japanese Warships of WW2 off of Ebay. Don't have it and looks like a good resource to add to the collection.


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Post #: 15
RE: Looking for Books with lots of stats - 9/19/2013 3:39:16 AM   
wdolson

 

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From: Near Portland, OR
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This book is expensive in the dead tree edition (it weighs about 10 pounds), but since the data was compiled by the USN in 1945 you might be able to find a digital edition somewhere.

http://www.amazon.com/United-States-Naval-Vessels-Intelligence/dp/0764300903

Bill

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