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RE: Pricing Suggestion

 
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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/25/2013 3:12:47 AM   
thewood1

 

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Achtung Panzer is as complex, but they completely screwed up distribution and patching. For a while you could get it for $5. It has actually stabilized where all the DLC comes to about $110. Again, not as broad as Command, more on the scale of CMBN. Sales are less frequent now that they have only a single distributor.

The ATF series. There have been a few sales and bundles, but all up running over $100. They have done a little discounting, but not much on a 10 year old product.

Strategic Command 2 with all the addons and sequels is probably running about $80 now. They were discounted recently when some of the addons came out and there is a lot of bundling also. But note they have now come over to Matrix. I have to assume that is one of the reasons why.

ARMA 2 took 2 years to discount. I got ARMA 2 and all the expansions for $75. That was sold through multiple channels, but until Steam, it held its price. They went to Steam after a couple years. But even after Steam, it was not too cheap to get everything. If you want to wait a few years, that is the model to follow. It's new version is what drove it pricing.

Steel Beasts - $115, now down from the original $125. It has been around that price since I can remember, plus they charge $20-$30 for upgrade. Just before 3.0 came out they lowered the entry price to $80, but 3.0 upgrade was $40. Now the overall price is back to $115.

I think Histwar Grognards is still running over $70 for download only. A lot more for boxed.

I don't count Wargame:European Escalation and Total War. These are low fidelity mass market games, not what I define as wargames. They are more RTS with a war flavor.

I know there are some more out there...just can't think of them right now. The ones I listed are very complex simulations excepting SC2.

edit...I checked the euro/US $ exchange rate. That brings itdown to $55. I bought Histwar a while ago and the exchange rate sucked so it cost be $68



< Message edited by thewood1 -- 9/25/2013 3:29:47 AM >

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/25/2013 3:15:14 AM   
thewood1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555


quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

So you never answered my question...is the $95 for CMBN inaccessible?

So $65 plus the $10 upgrade is $75...only $5 cheaper than Command. So either you aren't going to buy anymore CMBN modules, or you will end up spending more than on Command. Even if MG discounts to $25 in a year, that is still more than Command will ever be totaled up.

I am totally confused by your logic. Even after 4 years if they discount to CMSF levels, your most likely still talking $65-$70. Not only that, BFC charged for an upgrade, something some people are fired up that it might be a possibility with Command.


You're confused that I continue to buy additional parts of an ever-expanding series (when they reach a price point I find acceptable), as opposed to a single purchase product with a price I find awe-inspiring?

There is a philosophy, held by many even within the Matrix community, that the higher Matrix prices things, the more sales they lose, and the more people they scare away from the hobby. And pricing a new release at $90 absolutely guarantees that anyone who is entertaining the idea of entering the PC wargaming hobby will take a pass. And left with the impression that the hobby is that expensive, they will most likely walk away for good.



So what if COmmand came out in three pieces scattered over three years. Better. You prefer waiting 2-3 years to complete the game like CMBN?

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/25/2013 3:22:03 AM   
Aurelian

 

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nvm.

Not much point in complaining about the price. It isn't going to change any time soon.

And it isn't going to change because of the complaining.

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 9/25/2013 3:28:36 AM >


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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/25/2013 3:34:59 AM   
Rob322

 

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I don't think that's the point of this thread anymore

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/25/2013 3:51:46 AM   
thewood1

 

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It is to discuss pricing right...did I miss that?

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/25/2013 4:02:41 AM   
Rob322

 

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I thought it was to complain about it . Seems like its wandered into other games ...

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/25/2013 4:18:40 AM   
Aurelian

 

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It wandered due to comparing two different companies.

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/25/2013 4:35:45 AM   
Rosseau

 

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I would "wander" over to the Matrix store and buy this game.

Now, considering I have hardly played ANW and HCE, can anyone tell me why I should bother? With all due respect to those classics of the 1990s.

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/25/2013 4:42:02 AM   
mjk428

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

Actually its the only way to deflate the pricing arguments. Command is not over-priced when compared to other complex wargames.


Why do you feel the need to deflate the argument that others are making? Better to inflate your own argument if you want to sway people into the buy column. You won't convince anyone they're wrong on your word alone.

The price is high. No doubt about it. Matrix concedes that when they call it a premium game. The people concerned about the price aren't necessarily saying the game is over-priced. They just don't want to risk learning it's over-priced after paying a premium. At this early stage the jury is still out on whether the game is "worth it" or not. No matter how promising the first impression might be.

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/25/2013 5:01:14 AM   
kvob

 

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Matrix can set any price they want but, ultimately, it's the customer who decides if it is right or wrong. On this occasion, I have decided it is wrong and won't be buying this game.

It may seem like whining to come here just to say that I won't be buying, but I think it's important that Matrix can look at this thread and make a comparism on sales gained against sales (potentially) lost.

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/25/2013 5:11:20 AM   
mjk428

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kvob

It may seem like whining to come here just to say that I won't be buying, but I think it's important that Matrix can look at this thread and make a comparism on sales gained against sales (potentially) lost.



As long as you're polite about it nobody should take exception. If you why it's too high then that's valuable customer feedback that I expect Matrix takes into consideration.

I bought it only because the subject matter is irresistible for me. Even then I had to ponder it and take the bite out of it with a $20 gift card. At $60 I'd have bought without hesitation. Matrix is confident that they priced it right and with me they ultimately did - but just barely. And having now paid for a Premium Game I'm going to be far less forgiving of any faults.

< Message edited by mjk428 -- 9/25/2013 5:12:45 AM >


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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/25/2013 5:11:39 AM   
dutchman55555

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

Achtung Panzer is as complex, but they completely screwed up distribution and patching. For a while you could get it for $5. It has actually stabilized where all the DLC comes to about $110.


If you buy it at full price. I acquired the whole thing (minus the DLC released in the last couple of days) at a Christmas sale for (I kid you not) $10. What are the chances Matrix will put Command on sale for $10 in the next few years, or ever?


quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

Again, not as broad as Command, more on the scale of CMBN. Sales are less frequent now that they have only a single distributor.


There's that single distributor thing again. I agree that it's terrible for sales, so why has Matrix adopted it? (And the AP series has at least two distributors, and their own site.)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

The ATF series. There have been a few sales and bundles, but all up running over $100. They have done a little discounting, but not much on a 10 year old product.

Strategic Command 2 with all the addons and sequels is probably running about $80 now. They were discounted recently when some of the addons came out and there is a lot of bundling also. But note they have now come over to Matrix. I have to assume that is one of the reasons why.


I have no knowledge of these, so I'll take your word for it. I do note that ATF is Shrapnel Games, and from the look of their site the company is all but dead (most recent forum posts are several years old), and there's the All American: The 82nd Airborne vapourware fiasco, so I'd hardly consider it a viable or credible model for a business, especially when their discounts are infrequent (although there's one wrapping up right now).


quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

ARMA 2 took 2 years to discount. I got ARMA 2 and all the expansions for $75. That was sold through multiple channels, but until Steam, it held its price. They went to Steam after a couple years. But even after Steam, it was not too cheap to get everything. If you want to wait a few years, that is the model to follow. It's new version is what drove it pricing.


But the point is that Arma did discount, and not after 3 or 4 years. And while they had incredible luck with that zombie mod catching on, if they hadn't had wide distribution and a decent price point they would never have lifted off the ground.


quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

Steel Beasts - $115, now down from the original $125. It has been around that price since I can remember, plus they charge $20-$30 for upgrade. Just before 3.0 came out they lowered the entry price to $80, but 3.0 upgrade was $40. Now the overall price is back to $115.


Steel Beasts is less hobbyist, and more cheap alternative training for 3rd World nations. Certainly not massive sales. Poor example.


quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I think Histwar Grognards is still running over $70 for download only. A lot more for boxed.


They are hardly a frequent or noticeable contributor. Not exactly a business success, or likely to breathe life into the hobby. Beautiful looking games, though.


quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I don't count Wargame:European Escalation and Total War. These are low fidelity mass market games, not what I define as wargames. They are more RTS with a war flavor.


Agreed. They are, however, immensely successful, frequently on sale, and show no signs of lagging sales. One month of the sales of just one of them would surely add up to several years of Matrix sales.

The Wargame and TW RTS series are not the future of the hobby, at least not if we wish the hobby to remain history focused (I know I do).

But the fear that many in the community have is...is Matrix the future? Are massively uncompetitive prices the way to attract new blood, or keep current blood involved? Again, I see lots of posts here from customers wishing the developers luck, but it's too rich for their blood. They. Are. Not. Buying. Solely due to price. I'm of the same opinion. How does this phenomena foster the hobby?

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/25/2013 5:13:46 AM   
dutchman55555

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

So what if COmmand came out in three pieces scattered over three years. Better. You prefer waiting 2-3 years to complete the game like CMBN?


And Command has taken how many years to develop? Do you actually know? Check out the Wargamer if you're uncertain.

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/25/2013 7:03:05 AM   
kvob

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mjk428

quote:

ORIGINAL: kvob

It may seem like whining to come here just to say that I won't be buying, but I think it's important that Matrix can look at this thread and make a comparism on sales gained against sales (potentially) lost.



As long as you're polite about it nobody should take exception. If you why it's too high then that's valuable customer feedback that I expect Matrix takes into consideration.


I agree. My reasoning is quite simple (and hopefully polite): this game is just not worth the gamble at that price (and gamble it is until you install and find yourself satisfied with the product). Matrix have said in the past AARs are the way to go but, quite often, I've bought a game on the strength of an AAR to find it was not nearly as good as it seemed and that much of what persuaded me was the quality of prose rather than product. To me, AAR is as subjective as price where the customer is concerned. That all being said, it brings me full circle to the fact that every game bought is a gamble of some sort. i'm not even sure that demos can give you the full flavour of a game.

I am much more likely to take a punt on cheaper games (not necessarily dirt cheap...after all I still buy AGEOD games despite there now being no real outlet to discount versions since the Matrix/Slitherine/AGEOD merger) but this price is just too high.


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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/25/2013 8:11:18 AM   
Xornox

 

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I have the most of Matrix, Battlefront and Paradox games. This tells how fanatic war gamer I am. However, during the last year I have stopped to buy their games. Why?

Paradox has created DLC hell. Eventually their all games have so many DLCs that you are just horrified to re-install the game. It may be whole day task to check what is correct installation procedure and even if you know it, it takes hours and hours to download and install everything. It is like work day...

Battlefront has odd DRM system. I have not really understood it well ever. There are sometimes sudden bugs and errors and you have to ask help from support to solve them. I fear that I lose all games when they go out from business.

Matrix has the best customer support, but they seem to have insane price level nowadays for new games.

It is sad that in this great gaming genre, the best companies have also the worst business practices ever seen in gaming companies. They seem to try to drive customers who have given them huge amount of money out from the market. I can just go to play GTA V or old games from these companies (luckily I have enough them for many coming years).

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/25/2013 8:13:24 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mjk428


quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

Actually its the only way to deflate the pricing arguments. Command is not over-priced when compared to other complex wargames.


Why do you feel the need to deflate the argument that others are making? Better to inflate your own argument if you want to sway people into the buy column. You won't convince anyone they're wrong on your word alone.

The price is high. No doubt about it. Matrix concedes that when they call it a premium game. The people concerned about the price aren't necessarily saying the game is over-priced. They just don't want to risk learning it's over-priced after paying a premium. At this early stage the jury is still out on whether the game is "worth it" or not. No matter how promising the first impression might be.


It's the same argument made in the other thread linked here. The company explained everything in the other price thread. And yet here we are again, with the same arguments. Futile arguments, as the business model isn't going to change as far as pricing.

And why not deflate an argument when it's based on an old game series that's been out for awhile vs a brand new one. And the comparison isn't even valid as BF does not have anything comparable. Might as well compare WiTP-AE to their SC: Pacific.

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/25/2013 9:14:13 AM   
Budge4


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Was really looking forward to this game after a stint with the awful Naval War: Artic Circle, but seeing the cost has definitely curbed my enthusiasm. Think im going to have to read a lot of reviews\feedback on this game though before I part with the amount it costs. People mentioning in other posts a lot of lag (Bad Memory of Naval War: Artic Circle) when playing it wont help any future decision to maybe get it either. Know Matrix will support this game a lot better so will just wait and see I think.

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/25/2013 9:24:27 AM   
Tempest5

 

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I'll pass.
I see a $50 game.
And that's not the sale price.
Demo. Yeah okay. I played the Command Ops demo-and loved it. But I'm not paying their price either.


There's enough niche wargames I own, that are out there, and will buy/edit/mod to keep me busy.

Good luck to Matrix and the developer.



< Message edited by Tempest5 -- 9/25/2013 9:25:00 AM >

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/25/2013 9:34:26 AM   
flanyboy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Xornox

I have the most of Matrix, Battlefront and Paradox games. This tells how fanatic war gamer I am. However, during the last year I have stopped to buy their games. Why?

Paradox has created DLC hell. Eventually their all games have so many DLCs that you are just horrified to re-install the game. It may be whole day task to check what is correct installation procedure and even if you know it, it takes hours and hours to download and install everything. It is like work day...

Battlefront has odd DRM system. I have not really understood it well ever. There are sometimes sudden bugs and errors and you have to ask help from support to solve them. I fear that I lose all games when they go out from business.

Matrix has the best customer support, but they seem to have insane price level nowadays for new games.

It is sad that in this great gaming genre, the best companies have also the worst business practices ever seen in gaming companies. They seem to try to drive customers who have given them huge amount of money out from the market. I can just go to play GTA V or old games from these companies (luckily I have enough them for many coming years).


If you're playing GTA V you're paying $60 for a game so that's not exactly a cheap game either. Just saying...

Yea the price here will probably cause me to hold out but I can respect the decision, I may not buy the game but as with any product it's the developers choice what they need to charge to recoup costs. Who are we to DEMAND someone who made a product lower the price? It's totally their call and we have no justification in demanding a lower price. We can let them know we'd buy it if it was cheaper but we have no right to expect them to price it as we want, it's a business and it's 100% fair for them to do what they feel they need to do. I'm sure I'll buy it someday on a holiday sale and you'll get my money someday.

< Message edited by flanyboy -- 9/25/2013 9:35:53 AM >

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/25/2013 9:37:44 AM   
IainMcNeil


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

Really. A list of comparably priced, current, equally complex, non-Matrix PC wargames would be appreciated.


This is the fundamental point. Nobody else is making a game like this. It is completely unique. There is nothing else that is even vaguely similar so any price comparisons are meaningless.

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/25/2013 10:04:08 AM   
Xornox

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: flanyboy
If you're playing GTA V you're paying $60 for a game so that's not exactly a cheap game either. Just saying...


True, actually I was not buying GTA V as well because of the high price, but my wife wanted it and bought it. Development of GTA V has also cost couple of hundred millions. It's quality is just in completely another level. I also saw tens of reviews praising the game - it was not blind purchase.

quote:

ORIGINAL: flanyboy
Yea the price here will probably cause me to hold out but I can respect the decision, I may not buy the game but as with any product it's the developers choice what they need to charge to recoup costs. Who are we to DEMAND someone who made a product lower the price? It's totally their call and we have no justification in demanding a lower price. We can let them know we'd buy it if it was cheaper but we have no right to expect them to price it as we want, it's a business and it's 100% fair for them to do what they feel they need to do. I'm sure I'll buy it someday on a holiday sale and you'll get my money someday.


I do not demand anything. I just try to inform the company that there would be much more people buying the product if the price would be in normal level (I would have bought it for 40-50 dollars). I want that developers get their well-earned compensation (I am developer as well) and I want Matrix be successful company. In many cases, lower price means just much more money and happier customers which will buy products in the future also.

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/25/2013 10:25:30 AM   
delenda

 

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Hi All,

I've been following Command/RP for many years and couldn't wait for yesterday. Even though it was my wife's birthday, I managed to sneak in a quick hour :)

After debating with myself for hours, I finally bought the game - the price made it a difficult decision. I was willing to go up to £50, no questions asked and being content with trading that much money for something that I've been looking forward to for so long.

I admit that an hour isn't a long time but my first impressions are that £65 is a ridiculously high price. The UX isn't as polished as it should be - and I don't doubt for a second the completeness and veracity of the game DB - it feels like someone has tacked on a .NET interface.

You've completely priced out a large group of your customer base. I'd be shocked if there weren't any dodgy copies floating around within a week that the majority of your potential customers will use instead. Your 'niche genre' customers are being punished the most.

I'm going to play more over the next few days but C:MANO has a lot of work to do to convince me that it was worth the massive expenditure.

Thanks,

Andrew

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/25/2013 10:27:04 AM   
Hexagon


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Steam and Iron is other unique game, nobody is working in other game like this and game cost 35$ and if you want a campaign add-on you pay 20& extra, total 55$ a fair price enough to made then continue working in the serie (RJW on the way and plans for a WW2 game).

I have a lot of games from matrix and i planed buy 4 games in this release period (i plan invest 150 euros or a little more) but at this moment i discard 2 and look like i am going to discard the other 2 with this prices.

Maybe SC is here because battlefront DRM made they lose sales... and they dont have specially low prices, lower than matrix??? yes but DRM made diference irrelevant, this made me put here another example of company fail, do you know Eagle Storm naval games??? they star with high prices and draconian DRM later they decide create their own Steam clone waste a lot of resources but dont fix the game... now practicall every 3-4 months they launch discounts between 50-70% but look like nobody buy even whit attractive prices because they kill the potencial cliente base.

We are not going to change prices??? yes and no is hard say it when are more than 1 guy on this but in my case i dont plan pay for overpriced games specially when in the extra money i pay for them have serious doubts that goes to the company that made the game.

OOOO something i need say, games like CMANO has 50% of their value (even more) in the comunity, 38 scens is a good number but the value of the game depends a lot of how many scens can create guys that have it and this very important value of the game is 0 cost for sellers and i doubt they pay something to guys that expand the game value.

EDIT: GTA... a stupid question, how many money waste to sell CMANO??? i dont see a marketing strategy for it, no TV spots around the world, no interviews in game webs etc etc, when we talk about "generalist" games we need reduce from their final price 2 things, taxes (they include taxes on game price, you dont see xx$ + taxes) and the money used in marketing... wargames dont have marketing, dont include taxes on their prices but are at or over these games prices.

Yea, i am a whiner, a whiner that move from invest 150 euros in Matrix games to invest 0

< Message edited by Hexagon -- 9/25/2013 10:31:24 AM >

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/25/2013 11:22:15 AM   
Dimitris


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexagon
OOOO something i need say, games like CMANO has 50% of their value (even more) in the comunity, 38 scens is a good number but the value of the game depends a lot of how many scens can create guys that have it and this very important value of the game is 0 cost for sellers and i doubt they pay something to guys that expand the game value.


I am not going to say anything about the price but I wanted to reply to this.

Making a game, particularly a complex game/sim like this one, friendly to modding & community content is most definitely not a free action. You have to structure the code accordingly, you have to add a truckload of checks for data inputs you have absolutely no control over, you have to compensate for the performance penalties of loading external content (almost always less efficient than packing said content internally during development) and in general you have to worry about a million extra things that you wouldn't be concerned with in a closed system.

Then there is the extra development to cater to community needs. A user (beta tester or customer) tells you he's making e.g. an awesome new scenario but he needs functionality-X to make it work. So you sit down and do your best to adjust your existing codebase to the new requirement. Write the code, make it work, make it work _fast_, make it work _reliably_, make it suffer problems gracefully, make it play nice with the existing code, quite often re-architect a part of the solution to avoid duplication and conflicts.... the list goes on. Then of course test it, get everyone to agree it works as desired (and revise it if it doesn't), then commit it and move on to the next.

Opening a game to community content, and adding functionality/features at the community's request, is often (almost always maybe) a good idea, and most of the time it pays back for the initial investment of the extra work I described, but at the end of the day it's still an investment, which means an upfront cost. Sometimes a big one. Definitely never free.

Thanks!

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/25/2013 11:31:28 AM   
CoffeeMug

 

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It's a pity to see so much hate and so many tears about a price difference of 20 to 30 USD ...

You will have hundreds of hours out of this game. Compare that to your cookie cutter style GTAx or CoDx games or whatever.

Avoid the starbucks about 10 times and you are good. :D

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/25/2013 11:39:59 AM   
stringue

 

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I was interested in this game for a while as I have a casual interest in modern military technology. I found the price completely shocking I am sorry so I will not be purchasing this game at this price point, it is probably a waste of time me registering and posting this as it doesn't change anything but £65!!!! that is very expensive versus other games out there.

I agreed with another earlier poster who compared the pricing of this game to GTA V, they were promptly swatted down by an admin who said there could be no comparison. For me personally a game is a game, each gives hopefully a great deal of entertainment over a period of time and I pay for that entertainment whether it be the sandbox environment of Skyrim, unit management in the recent Xcom, interacting with virtual systems in MS Flight series or pitting various modern surface combatants against each other etc etc. Many modern games have a great deal of coding complexity and game complexity and a great deal of development time and "man hours" invested, but of the games I have played this is very expensive, and I cannot see how I could justify its features offered against its price, compared to other games.

I feel that you have a captive audience of people that love this particular genre and as they unfortunately have no(?) alternative games within the genre, that you can elevate the price knowing that they will pay over the odds for their fix, which is a shame because people outside the genre with a passing interest won't.

(I am not knocking the game it looks good, but the pricing point £65 sheesh!)

(in reply to Hexagon)
Post #: 206
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/25/2013 11:51:15 AM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 4002
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline
Did I miss something...where was the swatting?

(in reply to stringue)
Post #: 207
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/25/2013 12:00:06 PM   
delenda

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 9/25/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CoffeeMug

It's a pity to see so much hate and so many tears about a price difference of 20 to 30 USD ...

You will have hundreds of hours out of this game. Compare that to your cookie cutter style GTAx or CoDx games or whatever.

Avoid the starbucks about 10 times and you are good. :D


I assure you - there's no hate on my part.

I've had 100s of hours out of FSX, DCS A10, ARMA, BF2, GTA4 etc individually. Nothing in that list cost £65.

I might get 100s of hours out of CMANO, then again, I might not. Either way, you can't use that argument to justify the price point.

I'm mindful of this thread turning in to a complain-fest but I'd hope that the take-away from this is that clearly people are unhappy with the pricing and instead of 'deal with it' responses, it'd be nice to see that the publishers are taking note of the potential loss of sales & the number of unhappy customers.

Besides, if I avoid Starbucks, I won't be able to do my job as well

Thanks,

Andrew

(in reply to CoffeeMug)
Post #: 208
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/25/2013 12:00:25 PM   
Joseph_Nevsky


Posts: 46
Joined: 7/28/2009
From: Spain
Status: offline
At the moment, I will not be able to buy at that price, although I´d like to have it in my wargames collection. Anyway, wait for the time of the sales...
All the good luck to the developers!!

_____________________________


(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 209
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/25/2013 12:03:07 PM   
Dimitris


Posts: 10776
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline
Thanks guys! No hard feelings either way. We'll be here.

_____________________________


(in reply to Joseph_Nevsky)
Post #: 210
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