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RE: Pricing Suggestion

 
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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/29/2013 7:58:11 AM   
Hertston


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

Except that more and more studios/developers are being acquired by Matrix. Outright bought.


Like who? The only actual acquisition,ironically, seems to have been that of Matrix itself.

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/29/2013 8:06:30 AM   
warspite1


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Aurelian I think we’ve been here before…

The same old arguments just go round and round in circles. The one about “it’s a fact that if you reduce prices you get more customers” sums up the pointlessness of the thread. If life was that simple why doesn’t every company do that? Hey great, no retailer ever goes out of business!! Right…….

Matrix is a private company, no doubt with investors, shareholders (maybe the bank) all of whom they have to keep happy. They are NOT a charity. They also live in the free world and we have a free market. This means they have to balance price with consumer demand, competition, the size of the market place etc.

If they get it wrong there may be no Matrix in future, if they get it right, they will hopefully be around for some time yet. But it’s the right of the people who invest their cash and hold the risk to set the price. Our investment is limited to what we pay for games. If we don’t like it, then we shouldn't invest.

As for the Beta tester point, come on! We’ve all been around long enough to know the reality. Clearly enough people buy product day 1 for the practice to continue. If we didn’t then maybe it would stop and you wouldn’t have issues like Rome II or Empires in Arms or … just about every game I know (how many do not need patches exactly?). But that’s our (the consumers) choice and enough of us continue to buy day 1. If we become unpaid Beta Testers as a result, well, buyer beware!


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/29/2013 8:09:03 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

Except that more and more studios/developers are being acquired by Matrix. Outright bought.


Like who? The only actual acquisition,ironically, seems to have been that of Matrix itself.



Here's a list of their partners: http://www.slitherine.com/company

(in reply to Hertston)
Post #: 693
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/29/2013 8:18:16 AM   
Challerain

 

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Those are just companies they work with. I think Slitherine acquired Matrix and then Slitherine/Matrix acquired AGEOD. The others are developers that signed on with the company. At least this is my take.

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/29/2013 8:24:36 AM   
flanyboy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Challerain

Those are just companies they work with. I think Slitherine acquired Matrix and then Slitherine/Matrix acquired AGEOD. The others are developers that signed on with the company. At least this is my take.


I believe you're right. They DEFINITELY don't own the History Channel or they are doing way better than we thought, and we also need to start demanding a return to actual Historical shows and none of this reality trucking lumberjack garbage.

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/29/2013 10:28:12 AM   
Alchenar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Aurelian I think we’ve been here before…

The same old arguments just go round and round in circles. The one about “it’s a fact that if you reduce prices you get more customers” sums up the pointlessness of the thread. If life was that simple why doesn’t every company do that? Hey great, no retailer ever goes out of business!! Right…….

Matrix is a private company, no doubt with investors, shareholders (maybe the bank) all of whom they have to keep happy. They are NOT a charity. They also live in the free world and we have a free market. This means they have to balance price with consumer demand, competition, the size of the market place etc.

If they get it wrong there may be no Matrix in future, if they get it right, they will hopefully be around for some time yet. But it’s the right of the people who invest their cash and hold the risk to set the price. Our investment is limited to what we pay for games. If we don’t like it, then we shouldn't invest.


True, but even if we drop the price argument completely there's things like 'you need a demo', 'get some free advertising by getting some mainstream reviews', 'use the massive customer base that Steam opens up for you' which would not be substantial costs but which would probably be successful to some degree. But instead we just get an insistence that even that effort would be wasted.

The thing is that if a company refuses to let me demo a product and also hides their product from the industry journalists, that sets off pretty big alarm bells in my head that something is very wrong under the covers and they want to hide it until it's too late for me to back out of a purchase.

If you trust Matrix absolutely then their pricing strategy is fine. I have a demand for wargames and the supply is very limited. But if you get burned just once with a game that turns out to be far more expensive than it's entertainment value justified then it becomes very difficult to be a returning customer. And that's a problem.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 696
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/29/2013 10:54:17 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alchenar


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Aurelian I think we’ve been here before…

The same old arguments just go round and round in circles. The one about “it’s a fact that if you reduce prices you get more customers” sums up the pointlessness of the thread. If life was that simple why doesn’t every company do that? Hey great, no retailer ever goes out of business!! Right…….

Matrix is a private company, no doubt with investors, shareholders (maybe the bank) all of whom they have to keep happy. They are NOT a charity. They also live in the free world and we have a free market. This means they have to balance price with consumer demand, competition, the size of the market place etc.

If they get it wrong there may be no Matrix in future, if they get it right, they will hopefully be around for some time yet. But it’s the right of the people who invest their cash and hold the risk to set the price. Our investment is limited to what we pay for games. If we don’t like it, then we shouldn't invest.


True, but even if we drop the price argument completely there's things like 'you need a demo', 'get some free advertising by getting some mainstream reviews', 'use the massive customer base that Steam opens up for you' which would not be substantial costs but which would probably be successful to some degree. But instead we just get an insistence that even that effort would be wasted.

The thing is that if a company refuses to let me demo a product and also hides their product from the industry journalists, that sets off pretty big alarm bells in my head that something is very wrong under the covers and they want to hide it until it's too late for me to back out of a purchase.

If you trust Matrix absolutely then their pricing strategy is fine. I have a demand for wargames and the supply is very limited. But if you get burned just once with a game that turns out to be far more expensive than it's entertainment value justified then it becomes very difficult to be a returning customer. And that's a problem.
warspite1

But that's where our choice as consumers comes into the equation. If we are not happy with price and/or demo and/or quality then we can choose to walk. If enough people do that then Matrix, like any company, has to react - or die.

I don't say I trust Matrix absolutely. I neither trust nor distrust them - they are a company that (thankfully) provides me with an opportunity to wargame, but I take each game now as it comes - I would not buy or not buy just because it's from Matrix. Instead I will look at the comments on the forum and make my decision. No doubt sometimes I will ignore my own advice and just go straight for it on day one. But if I do and it's a bad decision, then I have only myself to blame.

I have had good and bad experiences with their product. I got burned with Empires in Arms, but I blame myself. If I had waited a bit longer I would have known the extent of the issues and not purchased - but I did not wait.

I personally think the forums are just as good as a demo. Provided the forum rules are abided by, Matrix allows people to say what they want about a game - good and bad. This feedback is from fellow forumites that many of us know and trust - I would prefer to hear what they have to say than some reviewer who I have never heard of.




_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




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Post #: 697
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/29/2013 11:22:01 AM   
parusski


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I hear there are plans for a program similar to "Obama Phones", it will be called "Obama games". Everyone will get free games.

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/29/2013 1:08:28 PM   
Alchenar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I personally think the forums are just as good as a demo. Provided the forum rules are abided by, Matrix allows people to say what they want about a game - good and bad. This feedback is from fellow forumites that many of us know and trust - I would prefer to hear what they have to say than some reviewer who I have never heard of.


But if you look at the COMMAND forum, the biggest issue right now is a mystery performance problem for people with more than capable rigs.

That's a pretty massive problem; not only is it questionable whether the game will 'click' for me, there's a big question mark over whether it'll play nicely with my hardware. I need a demo. It's that simple. I might drop money on a punt if it looks good enough and everyone agrees it's great. I can't when there's an appreciable risk that it might not even work properly.

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/29/2013 1:37:57 PM   
aaatoysandmore

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: flanyboy

To be fair not EVERY game is priced incredibly high. The SOW games are pretty reasonable ($29.99) for the stand alones, especially if you get the bundle which is $20 cheaper than the combined price of all the titles, CW2 is what? $39.99 at release for digital and while the Panzer Corps games are lighter they are also reasonably priced imho.



To you maybe, but not to everyone and you are just a general consumer like the rest of us. I'd like to see all releases be $19.99 but I'm sure someone would even have issue with that especially if they are bargain bin hunters. Look at all the games Matrixgames has given away for free and some of you still want more. They even gave you Steel Panthers W@W and you only want to give them a small amount back. That's just a laugh. I look at it that pricing is what it is, it's their baby and their right to price the way they see fit. Now of course it's our right to complain about it but I can assure you that you aren't going to make their pricing decisions for them. Erik once told us that only 2% of gamers actually use their forums for discussions so how much influence do you think you really have? It's like DSLwargamer she really thinks she has influence about no ai in computer games. It's almost a riot of laughter to think one small voice has such a large impact. If I were Erik I'd be laughing my a.ss off with her antics. lol

So, get your wallets out and pay up remember what happened to Avalon Hill and SPI. (and don't go blaming it on pricing it was you not buying enough of their products. )

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/29/2013 2:51:56 PM   
wodin


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It's unlikely CM:MANO will attract new blood, and it could have attracted ALOT of new blood. Though the developers and publishers really don't seem to care about that at all. SHame.

Also how come this thread got moved out of the Command forum?

DSwargamer?? A woman? Really?

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/29/2013 4:43:42 PM   
aaatoysandmore

 

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at the risk of sounding like a wom.....stup.... and dumb.....what is CM:Mano?: Wodin?

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/29/2013 5:18:06 PM   
Panman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

It's unlikely CM:MANO will attract new blood, and it could have attracted ALOT of new blood. Though the developers and publishers really don't seem to care about that at all. SHame.

Also how come this thread got moved out of the Command forum?

DSwargamer?? A woman? Really?


It got moved because it became about pricing strategies and business instead of the game. Eric moved it around page 22 I think.








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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/29/2013 5:36:46 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Aurelian I think we’ve been here before…

The same old arguments just go round and round in circles. The one about “it’s a fact that if you reduce prices you get more customers” sums up the pointlessness of the thread. If life was that simple why doesn’t every company do that? Hey great, no retailer ever goes out of business!! Right…….

Matrix is a private company, no doubt with investors, shareholders (maybe the bank) all of whom they have to keep happy. They are NOT a charity. They also live in the free world and we have a free market. This means they have to balance price with consumer demand, competition, the size of the market place etc.

If they get it wrong there may be no Matrix in future, if they get it right, they will hopefully be around for some time yet. But it’s the right of the people who invest their cash and hold the risk to set the price. Our investment is limited to what we pay for games. If we don’t like it, then we shouldn't invest.

As for the Beta tester point, come on! We’ve all been around long enough to know the reality. Clearly enough people buy product day 1 for the practice to continue. If we didn’t then maybe it would stop and you wouldn’t have issues like Rome II or Empires in Arms or … just about every game I know (how many do not need patches exactly?). But that’s our (the consumers) choice and enough of us continue to buy day 1. If we become unpaid Beta Testers as a result, well, buyer beware!



Warspite1, yes we have :)

And they bring nothing to back up their "facts".

To quote Ian from another thread:

1) Follow a business plan based on 13 years of running a successful company and over 20 years in the games industry.
2) Follow a business plan based on what a journalist and our fans (none of whom to my knowledge have ever made a game or run computer game publisher) suggest because we don't have the guts to follow our beliefs.

I know which option I will be choosing :)


< Message edited by Aurelian -- 9/29/2013 5:43:37 PM >

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/29/2013 5:46:37 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

It's unlikely CM:MANO will attract new blood, and it could have attracted ALOT of new blood. Though the developers and publishers really don't seem to care about that at all. SHame.


And you have all the data to back that up, right?

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/29/2013 6:06:41 PM   
Alchenar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
Warspite1, yes we have :)

And they bring nothing to back up their "facts".

To quote Ian from another thread:

1) Follow a business plan based on 13 years of running a successful company and over 20 years in the games industry.
2) Follow a business plan based on what a journalist and our fans (none of whom to my knowledge have ever made a game or run computer game publisher) suggest because we don't have the guts to follow our beliefs.

I know which option I will be choosing :)



It's just as fair to say that if your business plan hasn't changed substantially in the last 13 years then you are horribly behind the times. Especially given that the difference between now and 13 years ago is the availability of cheap, widely accessible digital distribution.

A business plan that with a few anomalous exceptions the entire industry has abandoned in favour of something that appears to be far more successful.

Sure, we're both just making assertions in the dark, but it seems the more suspect assertion is that the wargames genre is somehow fundamentally different to other niche and non-niche genres and that's what I'd like to see elaborated on.

< Message edited by Alchenar -- 9/29/2013 6:10:39 PM >

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/29/2013 6:16:26 PM   
Hotschi

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alchenar

It's just as fair to say that if your business plan hasn't changed substantially in the last 13 years then you are horribly behind the times. Especially given that the difference between now and 13 years ago is the availability of cheap, widely accessible digital distribution.



Hmm, why change a business plan when it works?

A company puts a prize tag on a product; as (potential) customer, one has two choices; to buy, or not to buy. That simple. And I think this is called "free market economy". Or "capitalism".


_____________________________

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- Air Marshal Arthur Harris to Adm Tom Phillips

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/29/2013 6:24:14 PM   
Perturabo


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I bought BftB because of the demo.

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/29/2013 6:40:28 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alchenar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
Warspite1, yes we have :)

And they bring nothing to back up their "facts".

To quote Ian from another thread:

1) Follow a business plan based on 13 years of running a successful company and over 20 years in the games industry.
2) Follow a business plan based on what a journalist and our fans (none of whom to my knowledge have ever made a game or run computer game publisher) suggest because we don't have the guts to follow our beliefs.

I know which option I will be choosing :)



It's just as fair to say that if your business plan hasn't changed substantially in the last 13 years then you are horribly behind the times. Especially given that the difference between now and 13 years ago is the availability of cheap, widely accessible digital distribution.

A business plan that with a few anomalous exceptions the entire industry has abandoned in favour of something that appears to be far more successful.


warspite1

Because something is old does NOT always mean it is necessarily obsolete or "horribly behind the times" - maybe it still works?

On what basis do you say Matrix are not as successful? Why does it appear otherwise? Successful on what basis?


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/29/2013 6:44:36 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hotschi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alchenar

It's just as fair to say that if your business plan hasn't changed substantially in the last 13 years then you are horribly behind the times. Especially given that the difference between now and 13 years ago is the availability of cheap, widely accessible digital distribution.



Hmm, why change a business plan when it works?

A company puts a prize tag on a product; as (potential) customer, one has two choices; to buy, or not to buy. That simple. And I think this is called "free market economy". Or "capitalism".



He isn't aware, but it did change. Haven't seen physical copies in any of the stores I used to buy computer wargames in.

Downloading from here is also cheap and widely accessible.

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 9/29/2013 6:52:03 PM >

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/29/2013 7:04:57 PM   
Xornox

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hotschi

Hmm, why change a business plan when it works?

A company puts a prize tag on a product; as (potential) customer, one has two choices; to buy, or not to buy. That simple. And I think this is called "free market economy". Or "capitalism".



And that is what we are doing and that is the subject of the discussion.

They lost a good customer. That is the fact. I purchased earlier almost all games they relesed. None nowadays... The pricing is only reason. Probably there are too few of us, but at least they should now know that some of us are leaving. I accepted high prices for WITE, Command Ops and WITP AE, but they were high quality products, I was able to read reviews and test cheaper corresponding products. In this case, the high price is ridiculous. The game is new, it is buggy, the quality is low (graphics and UI). At the minimum they should have been released first a cheap version and extend it later. That way it is possible at least test the product at reasonable costs before purchasing.

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/29/2013 7:39:10 PM   
Alchenar

 

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I think the graphics and UI for CANO actually look about 5 years ahead of most of the pack.

Unfortunately that just means a standard appropriate for 2000 rather than a standard appropriate for 1995. This is just another thing the genre suffers from by not keeping up with what the rest of the video game industry is up to - it isn't just that there isn't the development budget isn't able to match mainstream games, it's that choices in UI implementation are made that simply don't match up to what everyone recognises as best practice.

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/29/2013 8:26:02 PM   
dutchman55555

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Xornox

They lost a good customer. That is the fact. I purchased earlier almost all games they relesed. None nowadays... The pricing is only reason.

At least a dozen people in this discussion have passed on purchasing solely due to price. Most have not even been malevolent, wishing the developers the best of luck.

The ones to watch out for are the ones who can easily afford the price, like yourself, but who will not pay it. That should be setting off alarm bells in Matrix meetings. I'll bet you it isn't, though.

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/29/2013 8:38:32 PM   
Panman


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I pass on a Lexus, BMW, and Mercedes due to the price. Nope ... no alarm bells ....

Bet if they lowered their prices they would corner the market.

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/29/2013 9:08:59 PM   
Alchenar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panman

I pass on a Lexus, BMW, and Mercedes due to the price. Nope ... no alarm bells ....

Bet if they lowered their prices they would corner the market.


This just isn't really analagous for... well every reason really. Nothing about the car analogy even remotely makes sense. You aren't even talking about an entertainment product.

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/29/2013 9:12:21 PM   
Vyshka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

So, get your wallets out and pay up remember what happened to Avalon Hill and SPI. (and don't go blaming it on pricing it was you not buying enough of their products. )


I'd say the stupid lawsuit over Civilization had a lot more to do with the demise of Avalon Hill than anything else. SPI had some really poor business practices as well that set them up for failure.

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/29/2013 9:16:10 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panman

I pass on a Lexus, BMW, and Mercedes due to the price. Nope ... no alarm bells ....

Bet if they lowered their prices they would corner the market.


Possibly. http://www.dw.de/bmw-best-selling-luxury-auto-brand/a-16510066 from last year.

(in reply to Panman)
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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/29/2013 10:59:12 PM   
Panman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alchenar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panman

I pass on a Lexus, BMW, and Mercedes due to the price. Nope ... no alarm bells ....

Bet if they lowered their prices they would corner the market.


This just isn't really analagous for... well every reason really. Nothing about the car analogy even remotely makes sense. You aren't even talking about an entertainment product.


Really? The way people are carrying on with this you'd think it was more than an entertainment product.

OK ... just to make it analogous ... I spent more on dinner with my wife last night than this title costs. It wasn't what I would consider a high end restaurant and they didn't provide a demo.

Just because you don't think the price point is correct for the value of this title, doesn't mean that others don't (hence the luxury car reference). The marketplace will dictate what people are willing to pay. What good is there in expounding the fact that it doesn't fit your value/price point? Do you think the luxury car dealers care about my preferences? Are those cars really that much higher quality? A matter of opinion and personal preference. More people think they have that value. I don't think they are right or wrong ... I don't think the luxury car dealers are either ... it's just not at my price/value point. Seems to be simple economics.

Could they sell more for cheaper? Sure. Enough to make up the loss? Hard to say. Why should I care? If it gives value to me, and I feel it is a fair price for that value, then the price is right for me. YMMV


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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/29/2013 11:45:41 PM   
dutchman55555

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panman

Just because you don't think the price point is correct for the value of this title, doesn't mean that others don't (hence the luxury car reference). The marketplace will dictate what people are willing to pay. What good is there in expounding the fact that it doesn't fit your value/price point?

Actually the marketplace does not dictate what people are willing to pay. The marketplace should dictate what companies can charge. And only if they're focused on their customers.

Luxury cars have a specific market, primarily those who have money to burn, appreciate a product made with extra care and quality, and wish to flaunt status (I call it the Upper Class Twit factor). Even then such companies have to be focused on price, for if they raise it beyond their target market's income, they're in deep trouble. You can bet if they find a model isn't selling because the target market considers it too pricey that price will drop immediately.

So yeah, the Lexus analogy isn't a terrible one. As I've said earlier, Matrix only has a minimum cap on their prices, the sky's the limit in the other direction...as long as people are willing to pay it.

A better analogy might be the supercar market. Shipping out a few dozen units each year at £1 000 000 each. All you need is a few dozen people capable of purchasing them.

But that certainly doesn't do anything for bringing in new blood, or encouraging any but wealthy True Believers to stay. And that, when translated to our hobby, is seriously troubling.

And should that expected extra care and quality slip, or become absent, they will quickly find loyal customers turning on them and refusing to buy. I've seen several people, obviously long-term loyal fans, state exactly such a refusal here. So now it's not only the loss of potential new customers, but True Believers who have found their Kool-Aid to be quite sour-tasting.

(in reply to Panman)
Post #: 719
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/29/2013 11:50:05 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 2108
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Panman


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alchenar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panman

I pass on a Lexus, BMW, and Mercedes due to the price. Nope ... no alarm bells ....

Bet if they lowered their prices they would corner the market.


This just isn't really analagous for... well every reason really. Nothing about the car analogy even remotely makes sense. You aren't even talking about an entertainment product.


Really? The way people are carrying on with this you'd think it was more than an entertainment product.


Exactly!! That all this is when push comes to shove. You don't need it to live. It's a game

quote:

ORIGINAL: Panman
OK ... just to make it analogous ... I spent more on dinner with my wife last night than this title costs. It wasn't what I would consider a high end restaurant and they didn't provide a demo.


And if you want the same experience again, you have to pay again. With this game, you can play it over and over. The cost of ownership drops.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Panman

Just because you don't think the price point is correct for the value of this title, doesn't mean that others don't (hence the luxury car reference). The marketplace will dictate what people are willing to pay. What good is there in expounding the fact that it doesn't fit your value/price point? Do you think the luxury car dealers care about my preferences? Are those cars really that much higher quality? A matter of opinion and personal preference. More people think they have that value. I don't think they are right or wrong ... I don't think the luxury car dealers are either ... it's just not at my price/value point. Seems to be simple economics.

Could they sell more for cheaper? Sure. Enough to make up the loss? Hard to say. Why should I care? If it gives value to me, and I feel it is a fair price for that value, then the price is right for me. YMMV



That pretty much covers it.



(in reply to Panman)
Post #: 720
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