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Weapons That Wait And Wait And Wait

 
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Weapons That Wait And Wait And Wait - 8/22/2013 12:57:34 AM   
witpqs

 

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http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htpeace/articles/20130820.aspx

quote:

Weapons That Wait And Wait And Wait

August 20, 2013: A World War II American naval mine was recently found in the straits that separate the Japanese islands of Honshu and Kyushu. It was an American MK25 naval mine, one of thousands delivered by submarine and air in 1945, in a successful effort to completely shut down Japanese shipping. These were all influence mines, meaning that they were built to detonate when metal, water pressure, or noise were detected. In those days, each mine did not have all three sensors and a mix of mines with different sensors were usually planted in crucial areas.

One reason that mines were so effective was that much of Japanese shipping was actually carried by very small vessels along the shallow coastal waters. At first the U.S. used aircraft and warships to try and interdict this traffic. Much of Japan's foodstuffs was moved in small craft of 80 tons or less. These small ships avoided the warplanes and warships by running along the coast at night and hiding in bays, rivers, and other inlets by day, where they could be camouflaged against American aircraft. Mines shut down this coastal shipping and the Japanese could find no effective way to deal with the many “weapons that wait.” Some of those mines are still waiting.

When the U.S. began to mine Japanese waters in 1945, the effects were devastating. Because it was so expensive to build roads and railroads in mountainous Japan, much of the domestic transportation was via small coastal freighters. These ships were more often sunk, rather than damaged, by mines. Once this coastal shipping system was shut down, essential items like food and fuel could not be moved. As a result, Japan began running short of food. Had Japan not surrendered in August 1945, millions of Japanese would have starved or frozen to death before the warm weather arrived in early 1946.

The Japanese Navy was called in to deal with the recently discovered old mine. While elderly, these mines are often still viable (able to explode) and for that reason they are, whenever possible, destroyed where they are found. The explosives were carefully placed near the MK25 and detonated by remote (very remote) control. The explosion of the 545 (1,200 pounds) of explosives in the 880 kg (1,935 pound) MK25 sent up a pillar of water a hundred meters (310 feet) high.

Some 25,000 naval mines were placed (by aircraft or submarine) around Japan in 1945. Only about half were cleared after the war. Much of this work was done by demobilized Japanese sailors operating their old mine clearing ships as civilian contractors. The clearing was greatly aided by the U.S. providing the general location of all the mines put in place by aircraft and subs. Half the mines, that were dropped in rarely trafficked waters, were left in place because by the end of 1945 their sensors no longer worked and they were no longer a danger unless violently disturbed. Since this was the pre-GPS era, a lot of the mine locations were approximate and over the following decades tides, currents, and storms moved a lot of these mines (all in shallow coastal waters) and some ended up in more heavily used waters where they are being rediscovered. If one of these old mines is discovered in shallow, well trafficked waters, they have to be destroyed before a ship (or a ship anchor) disturbs it. Sport divers are another danger, even though local divers are usually warned about old mines.

There are many other old World War II explosives found off Pacific islands. Three years ago, some 800 meters off the coast of Okinawa, a phosphorus bomb drooped over sixty years ago finally went off. Without any human intervention. The bomb had been dropped into shallow coastal waters in 1945, when U.S. troops invaded the Japanese island. Decades of tidal action and storms moved the bomb to shallower waters, until, exposed to the air, the phosphorous ignited, surprising people on the nearby beach with a column of white smoke. Japanese bomb disposal teams showed up to deal with it and found another unexploded bomb nearby, as well as a 105mm artillery shell. This was not the first time such a delayed bomb went off, but the last occurrence was 38 years ago and there may not be another. But there will be unexploded bombs, shells, and grenades found on Okinawa for decades to come.

Meanwhile, there are plenty of other Pacific battlefields where bombs are also being found. Three years ago, on another Pacific island (Guam, a U.S. territory), construction workers discovered a World War II era thousand pound (455 kg) bomb, when their backhoe hit it. The bomb didn't go off, and bomb disposal technicians determined that it was safe to leave it alone until the weekend, when they would try to remove the fuze and then move the bomb. If the bomb could not be moved, it would be detonated where it was found. A bomb that size has about 295 kg (650 pounds) of explosives. Thus when the bomb technicians went to work on the bomb, all people living or working within a thousand meters (3,100 feet) had to move so they are at least 1,600 meters from the bomb. Or move away at least 1,000 meters and stay indoors while the defusing was underway.

The bomb disposal teams on Guam are still called out 4-5 times a week, seven decades after World War II ended. It's worse in Europe, where hundreds of World War II explosives are unearthed each year in Germany alone. Usually there are no casualties, as bomb disposal technicians are well trained and get lots of practice. But the fuzes that did not go off in the 1940s are now getting old and more prone to detonation while being disabled. Detonating bombs in place is often expensive because it means evacuating lots of people and exposing homes and businesses to bomb damage.

It’s not just aircraft bombs. Most of the explosives unearthed are smaller items like grenades, mortar shells, rockets, and mines. Many bombs, artillery, and mortar shells (over ten percent, for some manufacturers) did not explode when they were supposed to but just buried themselves into the ground. These shells are still full of explosives and often have a fuze that, while defective, is often still capable of going off if disturbed. Other munitions were left in bunkers, or elsewhere on the battlefield, and got buried and lost. Most of these lost munitions eventually get found by farmers, or anyone digging up the ground for construction. Most large cities, in Europe and the Pacific, that were heavily bombed during World War II still suffer from construction crews unearthing unexploded bombs.

The problem goes back farther than World War II. Unexploded munitions from the World War I (which ended in 1918), and the American Civil War, which ended in 1865, are still showing up, and some of them are still deadly. Currently, over a thousand World War II munitions are discovered each year in Europe.


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RE: Weapons That Wait And Wait And Wait - 8/22/2013 2:31:25 AM   
Warrant officer 0/0

 

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Interesting article. On a related note,why are bombs & mines not
subjected to duds in the game? Defective torpedoes are certainly well
represented.


WO 0/0

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RE: Weapons That Wait And Wait And Wait - 8/22/2013 3:17:35 AM   
geofflambert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Warrant officer 0/0

Interesting article. On a related note,why are bombs & mines not
subjected to duds in the game? Defective torpedoes are certainly well
represented.


WO 0/0


How do you know they're not? I don't happen to know, but you're making an assertion, you must know something. What is it?

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RE: Weapons That Wait And Wait And Wait - 8/22/2013 3:18:01 AM   
witpqs

 

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AFAIK they are subjected to duds. Check in the scenario editor to be sure.

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RE: Weapons That Wait And Wait And Wait - 8/22/2013 3:34:20 AM   
Warrant officer 0/0

 

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quote:

you must know something. What is it?


I have never seen a dud bomb message. Has anyone else?

I just checked the scenario data thru the editor.
All bombs have a dud rate of 0. This is with Babeslite A.




WO 0/0

< Message edited by Warrant officer 0/0 -- 8/22/2013 3:51:06 AM >

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RE: Weapons That Wait And Wait And Wait - 8/22/2013 3:38:31 AM   
geofflambert


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I'm not trying to pick on you, but I don't see a lot of dud torpedo messages that reflect the 50% dud rate of US torpedoes early on. Most of the time you just don't know.

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RE: Weapons That Wait And Wait And Wait - 8/22/2013 4:13:56 AM   
Quixote


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With torpedoes, you have the unfortunate ability to see the duds. I say unfortunate because regardless of which side you play, torpedoes are never duds when fired against harmless xAKLs (you'll get 4 working torpedoes in a row every time here.) They only dud against targets you really want to hit. (CVs, BBs, high value transports that you just know have troops aboard, etc, etc.)

1. I personally find this to be extremely frustrating.
2. It's also a great part of the game.

I usually transition from number one to its polar opposite number 2 in about 30 seconds. I'm not sure I could handle this same level of "fun" if every piece of ordnance used in the game also gave these same "dud" messages though...


On a serious note, mines are completely abstracted. If it makes you feel better, imagine running through a minefield without hitting anything as being identical to running through that same field and hitting a dud. With the rest of the ordnance in game, look at duds as simply being included in with the misses or non-penetrating hits if you want to. I'm guessing the devs decided the game could only have so much chrome before it might start to get in the way. (I personally think they hit the sweet spot with this, but everyone's opinion on this will be different.)

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RE: Weapons That Wait And Wait And Wait - 8/22/2013 4:17:41 AM   
Quixote


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I'm not trying to pick on you, but I don't see a lot of dud torpedo messages that reflect the 50% dud rate of US torpedoes early on. Most of the time you just don't know.


The early US dud rate is quite a bit higher than 50%, and I see it all the time when playing with them. It won't show up on Combat Reports, though - you'll only see it when watching the replay when the Allies hit (insert IJN CV name here) and get the "torpedo failed to detonate" message.

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RE: Weapons That Wait And Wait And Wait - 8/22/2013 4:32:51 AM   
geofflambert


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I can't tell you how many times my torpedo failed to detonate!

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RE: Weapons That Wait And Wait And Wait - 8/22/2013 4:49:44 AM   
witpqs

 

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Well at least is isn't going off early...

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RE: Weapons That Wait And Wait And Wait - 8/22/2013 4:51:01 AM   
Lokasenna


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I've seen penetrating bomb hits deal less than 5 System damage, which I assume to mean the bomb passed through the armor but didn't explode. It wasn't that uncommon in the war, really. Shells from guns, too.

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RE: Weapons That Wait And Wait And Wait - 8/22/2013 6:51:32 AM   
koniu

 

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WWII explosives are problem all over world. Biggest problem is in cities
In Warsaw, city is building new subway line. So far they made ~6km tunnel.
In that time they need stop working over 600 times because they find WWII explosives. So in average they find something every 10 meters. Note that they building that tunnel 10-20 meters below surface. If You building something in cities like Warsaw, Berlin, London etc, You can be sure that at lest ones You will need sappers.

I found statistic of one of Sapper unit in Poland from 2012. Under that unit is 10% of Poland territory. They destroy

-72 540 rifle rounds
- 411 air bombs
- 617 mortar round
- 31 mines
- 2622 artillery shells




< Message edited by koniu -- 8/22/2013 7:04:39 AM >


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RE: Weapons That Wait And Wait And Wait - 8/22/2013 10:09:15 AM   
Banzan

 

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Bremen wasn't hit as hard as for example Hamburg in WW2, but we still have one to three evacutations a year due bombs being found (mostly at street works/construction works) and getting disarmed. Most bombs can be disarmed, but as already said in the article, its getting more and more difficult.

One of the most worse "disarms" happend in Munich in 2012, where they had to blow one off. Video
No people were harmed, but despite of using a lot of sandbags to protect the surroundings, there was a lot of damage.

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RE: Weapons That Wait And Wait And Wait - 8/22/2013 10:32:35 AM   
LargeSlowTarget


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Warrant officer 0/0

Interesting article. On a related note,why are bombs & mines not
subjected to duds in the game? Defective torpedoes are certainly well
represented.


WO 0/0



On another related note - where are all the small craft of 80 tons or less in the game?


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RE: Weapons That Wait And Wait And Wait - 8/22/2013 10:49:58 AM   
String


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quote:

ORIGINAL: koniu

WWII explosives are problem all over world. Biggest problem is in cities
In Warsaw, city is building new subway line. So far they made ~6km tunnel.
In that time they need stop working over 600 times because they find WWII explosives. So in average they find something every 10 meters. Note that they building that tunnel 10-20 meters below surface. If You building something in cities like Warsaw, Berlin, London etc, You can be sure that at lest ones You will need sappers.

I found statistic of one of Sapper unit in Poland from 2012. Under that unit is 10% of Poland territory. They destroy

-72 540 rifle rounds
- 411 air bombs
- 617 mortar round
- 31 mines
- 2622 artillery shells





It's similar in Estonia. There are areas where extinguishing wildfires is still dangerous because of various UXO's lying close to the surface. And the bottom of the gulf of finland is still full of unexploded mines left over from the massive mine belts used to seal the soviet fleet into kronstadt.

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RE: Weapons That Wait And Wait And Wait - 8/22/2013 4:02:39 PM   
tc464


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I once read that if every EOD tech was used just for cleanup around the world...there would be work for 300 years. I know the work has paid my bill since 1984.

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RE: Weapons That Wait And Wait And Wait - 8/22/2013 4:27:29 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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I read a news report last week about a housewife in Britain who found a small bomb in the garden and brought it into the house, against her husband's protests, and washed it off in the kitchen sink. Seeing then what it was they called the police who called the bomb squad. They detonated the very-live munition in a safe manner. Her husband, with typical British understatement, pronounced himself "not happy" with her.

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RE: Weapons That Wait And Wait And Wait - 8/22/2013 4:31:23 PM   
catwhoorg


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Yep. There is a whole lot of ordinance scattered all throughout Europe. It will be literally be centuries before its mostly gone.

Was watching a program a few weeks ago about some Dutch EOD experts. They had some nasty buggers to deal with.

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RE: Weapons That Wait And Wait And Wait - 8/22/2013 4:52:05 PM   
Lokasenna


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I was just out hiking in the Dolly Sods area in West VA a couple of weeks ago. (Un)fortunately, I did not find any WW2 munitions of which to take pictures, but apparently they're still around.

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RE: Weapons That Wait And Wait And Wait - 8/22/2013 5:07:39 PM   
Warrant officer 0/0

 

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quote:

where are all the small craft of 80 tons or less in the game?


I am guessing that you are referring to the canoe in your sig?
What kind of crew rating do you think that boat has? Not
much space for type 2 DC's from the look of it.



WO 0/0

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RE: Weapons That Wait And Wait And Wait - 8/22/2013 5:10:01 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I was just out hiking in the Dolly Sods area in West VA a couple of weeks ago. (Un)fortunately, I did not find any WW2 munitions of which to take pictures, but apparently they're still around.


My B-I-L spent part of the 90s hiking into that area with a team of contractors and digging up and disposing of WWII stuff, mostly mortar shells. They used ground radar to find it. Some was pretty near marked hiking trails I think.

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RE: Weapons That Wait And Wait And Wait - 8/22/2013 6:45:35 PM   
Lokasenna


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The more interesting part of that trip to me was going to Seneca Rocks, where I learned that it was used for "assault climbing" training in WW2. Something like 1800 men were trained and did their final climb test at night, in the dark, on unfamiliar rock formations...with no injuries or major incidents. This was after I'd climbed the scrambles to the "peak" on the north side, while the southern half is inaccessible unless you have legit climbing equipment and even then...it looks daunting. It was very impressive. Apparently the highest sheer rock faces in the Eastern US.

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RE: Weapons That Wait And Wait And Wait - 8/23/2013 12:40:47 AM   
Quixote


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

The more interesting part of that trip to me was going to Seneca Rocks, where I learned that it was used for "assault climbing" training in WW2. Something like 1800 men were trained and did their final climb test at night, in the dark, on unfamiliar rock formations...with no injuries or major incidents. This was after I'd climbed the scrambles to the "peak" on the north side, while the southern half is inaccessible unless you have legit climbing equipment and even then...it looks daunting. It was very impressive. Apparently the highest sheer rock faces in the Eastern US.


You're right - Seneca does have the highest point on the East Coast you have to climb to get to (no driving, hiking, or cable cars.) Back when I was young, I climbed it twice. It does look daunting (I was a good climber back then, and I still remember looking up at it from the ground the first time) but technically it's not a super hard climb. Easily my most rewarding climb though - the view from the summit of the valleys on both sides was awesome from almost 1000 feet up. (I never climbed Yosemite. I knew my limitations, even back then...)

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RE: Weapons That Wait And Wait And Wait - 8/23/2013 12:47:10 AM   
Treetop64


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Warrant officer 0/0

Interesting article. On a related note,why are bombs & mines not
subjected to duds in the game? Defective torpedoes are certainly well
represented.


WO 0/0


They are.

Play the game long enough and, for example, you will see aircraft dropped dud bomb hits on ships. The combat animation comment won't say it's a dud, but the bomb will hit the ship, and even penetrate, but not explode.

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RE: Weapons That Wait And Wait And Wait - 8/23/2013 3:12:15 AM   
desicat

 

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"Duds" may have saved the RN during the Falklands War. "Duds" may be an incorrect way to state the problem, the fuses were not adequate for the low level drops being made.

"The record of the FAS in the Falklands War is impressive. The pilots of the Skyhawk, Dagger, Mirage, and Etendard squadrons demonstrated remarkable piloting and navigation skills. The low-level attacks were exceptionally difficult and dangerous. One flight of Skyhawks flew so low during their ingress to attack the British fleet that on arrival at their home base they had to make instrument approaches to landing because a coating of salt (deposited by the spray off the ocean’s waves) obscured their canopies. Argentine official historians continue to claim that the Argentine airmen inflicted far more damage on the British fleet than the British officially admit. However, the losses the British do document are still impressive considering the FAA’s limitations and lack of antishipping training before the war. The destroyers HMS Sheffield and HMS Coventry, the frigates HMS Ardent, HMS Antelope, the support ship Atlantic Conveyor, the landing ship RFA Sir Galahad, and the landing craft LCU F4 were all sunk by Argentine bombs and Exocets. The destroyers HMS Glasgow and HMS Antrim, the frigates HMS Argonaut and HMS Plymouth, and landing ship RFA Sir Tristram all sustained heavy damage, and another six ships received minor damage. In all, the Fuerza Aerea Sur inflicted the heaviest damage and casualties suffered by the British task force. For that, the FAS paid a very heavy price, losing 22 Skyhawks—19 from Grupos 4 and 5 and three more from a naval Skyhawk squadron. Grupo 8 lost two Mirages, and Grupo 6 lost 11 of its 30 Daggers. The 2d Bomber Squadron lost two Canberras. In all, the FAS lost 41 percent of its aircraft to combat and operational accidents. This is an astounding attrition loss—but it never broke the FAS’s high morale and fighting spirit."

More available here.

< Message edited by desicat -- 8/23/2013 3:16:47 AM >

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RE: Weapons That Wait And Wait And Wait - 8/23/2013 6:21:07 AM   
Commander Cody


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A Canadian buddy of mine has stumbled on a 155 shell and a land mine while hiking with his son in Korea (figuratively, not literally, stumbled). Those discoveries gave the ROK Army something to do. On his last hike, he stumbled on an abandoned Humvee marked "8 BDE 94 MP" in the woods (i.e. 94th MP Battalion of the 8th MP Brigade, Yongsan Base).

Cheers,
CC

< Message edited by Commander Cody -- 8/23/2013 6:29:20 AM >


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RE: Weapons That Wait And Wait And Wait - 8/23/2013 12:22:21 PM   
catwhoorg


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HMS Antelope was destroyed by a 'dud' that detonated during the defusing efforts.

The Armed forces were livid at a comment on the BBC about how the bombs weren't detonating correctly. Not quite as bad as the slip about troops marching on Goose Green before that action took place, but still gave useful;l information to the enemy.

OPSEC doesn't come easily to journalists of any variety.

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RE: Weapons That Wait And Wait And Wait - 8/23/2013 12:30:33 PM   
Bo Rearguard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

HMS Antelope was destroyed by a 'dud' that detonated during the defusing efforts.

The Armed forces were livid at a comment on the BBC about how the bombs weren't detonating correctly.


Reminds me a bit of US Congressmen Andrew May, who in 1943 blabbed about the Japanese fuzing their depth charges too shallow.

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