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Overlapping units..thoughts.

 
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Overlapping units..thoughts. - 8/10/2013 10:53:52 PM   
wodin


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Was thinking about this today. Looking at how neat a hex based game is and how chaotic this game looks. It then got me thinking is it right it looks so chaotic (I know hex based gaming is totally different)with units ontop of each other, I mean that means the footprint overlaps and in effect the coy's are getting all mixed up on the ground. So maybe the game should stop any unit getting to close to the next one if the footprint overlaps, obviously friendly units only. The only time the units would mix is if in a retreat or poorly led..maybe the game could be coded for this.

< Message edited by wodin -- 8/10/2013 10:54:57 PM >


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RE: Overlapping units..thoughts. - 8/11/2013 12:20:35 AM   
danlongman

 

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Have you played this wodin? In my experience units retain disgression and identity quite nicely. If you unzoom the map it look jumbly but otherwise is fine...

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RE: Overlapping units..thoughts. - 8/11/2013 12:28:27 AM   
wodin


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Have you played this wodin..hmm..doesn't deserve an answer. Thats twice now you've said this the other time about CoH. You got an issue with me or something? If so speak up and say what it is..

Anyway I will say it's been awhile...and due to a small monitor I'm rarely zoomed right in. SO if unit footprints don't overlap I have to say I'm pretty shocked..just looking at some screenshots to make sure I wasn't going mad makes me very skeptical that unit footprints don't overlap. If they don't then I take it back. On some screenshots the coy counters are more or less ontop of each other.

It isn't anything I've thought about until now and just occurred to me earlier. I'm getting a new monitor..going from a 19ich TFT to a 24inch, picked one up very cheap from Amazon..Will help loads and then I can zoom in bit more!!

Anyway was just a thought.

Edit: Been thinking about it more..one minute I think yes when attacking on the obj it's right units will overlap..but then I thought about the officers on the ground and whether they'd let that happen for command and control reasons..once they know they have encroached on the coy next to them area they'd pull away abit. Tricky one.

< Message edited by wodin -- 8/11/2013 12:42:55 AM >


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RE: Overlapping units..thoughts. - 8/11/2013 12:39:53 AM   
Perturabo


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Another thing is the lack of ability to set up reinforcements to come in some reasonable formation. For example if I put a division on the map at the start using reinforcements or make division enter the map, it ends up occupying a tiny amount of space.

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RE: Overlapping units..thoughts. - 8/11/2013 1:31:33 AM   
navwarcol

 

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I think that you cannot program in to avoid this, as it does happen(usually not on purpose) in real life. I do believe (not sure though?) that density of forces is accounted for. In general, the reasons you would want to avoid that overlap in real life is because jumping that density up too high is a sweet target for artillery. I would have to run a few tests to see if it increases artillery lethality here if we overlap.

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RE: Overlapping units..thoughts. - 8/11/2013 1:57:20 AM   
danlongman

 

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I just asked because in both cases your play experience was different from mine. In the first case you had played a demo, in the second at a resolution level which would
certainly give that impression of jumbly. Doesn't deserve an answer indeed. If you play at an appropriate level or on an inappropriate monitor setting you get what you get.
No mystery here to me. When your compare your impression of a demo to projected value of another completely different game I am just wondering why. I have no issue with you.
I have an issue with people who "don't like the way the picture looks" unless its Baptism of Fire (damn fugly as '70's D+D art) or compare an existing game with a proposed game
or play on a laptop and complain about the music quality. Or like my nephew and saying he hates Skyrim because it makes his neighbours all pissy when he does his
dragon shouts at 4 am. Not really applicable to the world in general. I say "have you played it wodin?" And I mean when and how and how much and what version? Why is your
experience different? And you reply "a demo" some unspecified time ago or at a poor resolution a long time ago and ask me why. I mean i was trying to play Sturmovik on my 7/11
cell fone in an area with poor coverage and it sucked mustard man!!!! I hate that game and will never buy it. Yeah. I love Advanced Tactics Gold but I HATE having engineers that
look like hockey players!!! What happened to the little guys with a pick axe? And the infantry that look like ballerinas with trouser issues!! Those are legitimate beefs but
hardly relevant to anyone but me. I did post about the hockey player thing cause i hates that. Have a beer.
BTW one classic problem in WW2 grand tactical level combat was controlling attacking units. Many an attack bogged due to traffic problems, congestion and command control being lost
as units jumbled up like in your complaint... If you have ever seen what happens when two infantry companies run into or over each other in poor visibility or terrain (fog, night, forest)
in RL the result can be comic, tragic or catastrophic. I also think of the very ancient Highway To The Reich SPI boardgame where if stacking units were violated even for an instant
entire units would be rendered ineffective for hours. I hate good models when they give bad (for me) results.

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RE: Overlapping units..thoughts. - 8/11/2013 11:05:07 AM   
phoenix

 

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I think it wouldn't necessarily mean the footprints overlap if the counters overlap at certain zoom levels, Wodin (like when you're zoomed right out). I agree that it can be sometimes fiddly to click through units to get an idea of what's there (let alone to give orders to them - try making an ad hoc battle group with elements buried under each other) and this especially applies when the reinforcements arrive, as has been noted. I haven't checked whether on closest zoom level the footprints overlap when they shouldn't (I assume they could legitimately overlap for a wide variety of reasons, including those you've mentioned). But I've never thought of the counters and the footprints as anything more than a rough guide to the actual location of the units (as you might indeed get were you a commander at this level staring at a map with your units marked on it, even a digitised map). Maybe the idea of coding against footprint overlap would only come into play if your (Wodin) idea of fluid lines representing footprints was implemented. But then you have to think about what the conception of it is here - some kind of view of a battle with a lot more detail than a real operational level commander would have, or something closer to the real life experience (whatever that actually is). I prefer the latter (or that I'm fooled into thinking it's the latter), so the issue hasn't bothered me that much. Hex based games, of course, look even more abstracted. Would be nice to see an animation type graphic, however, as I've seen elsewhere, where, if you click on overlapping units they separate out for a bit so you can see who is there.

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RE: Overlapping units..thoughts. - 8/12/2013 11:54:05 PM   
jimcarravallah

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Was thinking about this today. Looking at how neat a hex based game is and how chaotic this game looks. It then got me thinking is it right it looks so chaotic (I know hex based gaming is totally different)with units ontop of each other, I mean that means the footprint overlaps and in effect the coy's are getting all mixed up on the ground. So maybe the game should stop any unit getting to close to the next one if the footprint overlaps, obviously friendly units only. The only time the units would mix is if in a retreat or poorly led..maybe the game could be coded for this.


Well, first off, war is typically chaotic. Games may not be so since the programmers adjust the reality of war to suit their capabilities to emulate the conflict.

If Command Ops happens to appear chaotic, perhaps it means the system mirrors real war (adjusted to a 100-meter defining grid).

Battle maps from World War II combat descriptions I've seen show the boundaries between major units in the battle (suited to the combat echelon story the map is supposed to support). Doesn't mean that wing / flank units didn't stray over the line, but that the commander for each formation subject to a line is supposed to align the commander's operational objectives / command initiative to areas in the zone assigned.

So, in Command Ops, footprint overlap for the human commander depends much on how the commander defines frontages for units he / she controls, and where he / she sites the unit assembly point in relation to others while issuing in orders within his / her command.

If a whole division is assigned an attack task on an objective, there's guaranteed unit overlap during the approach / attack, since a division's footprint generally exceeds the area that is defined as an objective.

If that same division is assigned a defend task, units will spread to support the footprint width and depth defined by the commander (or the automatic footprint if the commander isn't interested).

In all, I'm not always happy with unit overlap, but in the end, that overlap depends on how I assign tasks within my command as opposed to a fault of the game.

I don't look for the software to bail me out with a hex grid system (which also includes overlap if more than one unit is assigned to a "hex.").

I'd like maps defined at a more refined measure than 100-meter separation between terrain sampling points for the map to help with my control decisions, but 100-meters is typically the front assigned to a squad, and Command Ops typically doesn't provide for an order of battle with units much below the platoon level.






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