Mining???!!!!

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grumpy181155
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Mining???!!!!

Post by grumpy181155 »

I must admit I am not having fun anymore. I have mined every planet, gas cloud, asteroid and barren rock in my sphere of influence and I am still stuck with half my star bases not upgrading or building because they have material shortages of one sort or another. Half my fleet decided to refuel at a star base that was upgrading but has stalled because it has a shortage of Aculon and they are stuck there not doing anything. It is frustrating and annoying!
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turtlefang
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RE: Mining???!!!!

Post by turtlefang »

You have over expanded and overloaded the "freighters". They are running around like a chicken with their head cut off trying to fulfill all your construction projects.

And, usually, at that point they aren't carrying anything but the emergency supplies or something similar. Which means they are mostly empty which just aggravates the situation.

Each new base your building seems to cause the AI to recheck freighter routes and rerouting to handle the new request. So it becomes a very difficult death spiral to break. You have to slow down and let the logistics tail catch up.

A few things, if you have the money:

1) Try to get protection agreements with each of the pirate factions. This makes it more likely that a pirate faction will complete a smuggling mission.

2) Then set a smuggling mission to each planet or star port that has a shortage.

3) Slow down new base construction to let your logistics catch up.

4) Check your treaties. You might need to restrict or stop trading with other empires for a while. This will prevent any leakage across the borders and keep your freighters in territory.

5) If possible, keep new ship construction down for a while, including upgrades.

6) Each colony has a certain amount of resources that are required to make it work. These seem to get priority over base building. If you are adding colonies too fast, this overloads the system as the base resources can't be supplied - again, resulting in catch up. (The flip side, expand too slow and the colonies will meet you with guns blazing as someone else has settled on them).
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Shark7
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RE: Mining???!!!!

Post by Shark7 »

You can also design an escort with mining engines and cargo bays and use them to make up shortfalls. State ships (warships) with a mining engine can be chosen singly and when you hover the cursor over a planet, you will get the option 'Mine this Planet' (or something similar). The ship will then mine till full then drop off at the nearest starport.

It is tedious, but also useful if you have shortages.
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Plant
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RE: Mining???!!!!

Post by Plant »

It sounds like you tried to build a lot of bases at the same time instead of trying to steadily build up your bases. resulting in a sudden and large demand for resources.

Perhaps you simply have forcibly built too many mining bases relative to your private income to the extent that your private sector can't afford any frieghters'

Screen shots of galaxy map and main econ screen would be helpful.
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grumpy181155
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RE: Mining???!!!!

Post by grumpy181155 »

Thanks for the feedback guys. Normally I let the AI manage the mining and yes this happens when I expand but this is a game where you are expected and need to expand to win ...right????

Plant I would love to post some images but I don't know how. The FAQ says check the box "Embed picture in Post" but I can't find the box to do that. [&:] Some details are though 91 colonies in 71 systems; approximately 1300 freighters; 40 ea mining and gas mining ships; 36 mining and 58 gas mining stations plus 164 military ships and 80 space ports. Money is not an issue as I have a sufficient cash flow frequently injecting cash into research.

Turtlefang in reply to your points;
1. I rarely use protection agreements preferring to use my own fleet for protection because after all my intention is to wipe out the pirates not provide them with a steady income and a cushy job.

2. EVERY planet has a smuggling contract. It seems to be the only way to get enough resources to actually build things.

3. How do I know when I am getting ahead of my logistics tail? Is the first indicator prolonged shortages at new planets or star base build?

4. I actually have a few Free Trade Agreements but these are good....right? And free trade goes both ways doesn't it. If I have shortages of a particular commodity doesn't free trade allow my trading partner to sell me that commodity?

5. I do this already. Keeping a minimal fleet until I think I am going to war. I also tend to delay upgrades until I have several critical that I want to implement.

6. I understand that but I am supposed to be expanding. How do I know I am expanding at the optimal rate?
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turtlefang
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RE: Mining???!!!!

Post by turtlefang »

1. I understand the issue about protection agreements but if you have a protection agreement, your smuggling operations have a higher chance of success. So you have to decide - hold off on killing pirates or use pirates to help supply your shortages?

2. If you getting ahead, things start getting build, and new planets are the only ones that will be suffering shortages. Virtually all new planets and space ports will experience shortages as soon as they are built. The question is - are you experiences widespread shortages? Its a balancing act and you have to judge it.

3. Free trade agreements sent resources to other empires and you get money in return. They send resources to your private economy and get money in return. But the resources typically don't go toward building. It is usually a big net loss as your empire is bigger than theirs.

If you need money or improved relations, trade agreements are good. They reduce tension in the galaxy and generate income. But you need resources, not money. Again, you have to decide what is more important. The balancing act.

4. As far as expansion, it is a trade off and you just have to learn how to judge fast expansion versus too much. There is no right answer here. If your against a fast expanding race, you don't have much choice. If your not, you can stage your expansion. But, for example, if you up grade your mining bases, and you have a lot of them, it will require a lot of resources to upgrade. Same with space ports. And same with the civilian fleet.

And the larger your economy becomes, the "slower" it expands. And the slower it expands, the fewer new freighters that get built. Bigger empires actually have fewer freighters "per capital" to support it do to the expansion rate. So shortages may increase especially if you have created a backlog.

Time will cure it - if you control expansion and handle things. The question I would have is, do you need any more mining bases except for one new fuel mining base per new colony in the new colony system? (I believe each colony should have a fuel source in the colony).

If you stop building new mining stations, you will decrease the amount of new resources you need.
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grumpy181155
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RE: Mining???!!!!

Post by grumpy181155 »

Thanks turtlefang. I have a reasonable handle on the early game but I am having trouble in the latter stages. I will try and slow down my expansion a bit which going from your advice should help a lot. I remember that I started having real problems after I researched a new colonisation tech (can't rember which) and I had a dozen new planets to colonise within my systems. I appreciate the help.
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Darkspire
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RE: Mining???!!!!

Post by Darkspire »

This does seem to be an issue, as much as I really do like the fact that mines are now retro fitted it really is a nightmare late game when the last designs are up dated, I play on a 400 15x15 and have to really plan the last updates if not then I get the same problem, the freighters were reduced in 05 and the steel usage was reduced in 07 but I do not think it was enough to combat the problem in longer games, by late game I have well over 400 mines and it really screws the game up if I update the designs, it is so frustrating looking at sources over 100 and stock well in the five figure area and seeing an unfilled amount of 200+ and then seeing 20-30 in transit. It really needs the AI to break the upgrading and retrofitting into smaller chunks, EG, you have 100 mines, so the AI selects 10, upgrades 10 then selects the next ten etc, at present it seems to want to upgrade everything at once and the freighters can not keep up.

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grumpy181155
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RE: Mining???!!!!

Post by grumpy181155 »

I have been playing on a 10 x 10 and I have over 90 mines. I like setting my victory conditions fairly high because to me galaxy domination means DOMINATION!!! Not just a bit more than 50% [:D] I agree that it would be good if the AI would introduce upgrades, especially on auxilliary items like mines, slowly.
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skigrinder
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RE: Mining???!!!!

Post by skigrinder »

Would it be possible to add a simple 'transfer' dialog to move resources between bases, planets and ships?
The ability to manually satisfy shortages with a resupply ship (i.e. a very large, manual freighter) would eliminate a lot of gnashing of teeth.
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RE: Mining???!!!!

Post by Jeeves »

PLUS PLUS PLUS!!! So long as I get to specify how much of each cargo type is loaded at a source, and how much is transferred ship to base at the destination. Everybody comment plus or minus, maybe we can get this added...

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jimhsu
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RE: Mining???!!!!

Post by jimhsu »

Look at the Resource extraction rates in 1.7.0.7 thread (sorry can't post links for some reason) and my posts to see everything you could possibly want to know about mining. To summarize: more mining engines does not help, "stacking" starbases (which is pseudo-exploity) does work, and colonies suck at getting resources. All of these things should be fixed.
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RE: Mining???!!!!

Post by Shark7 »

ORIGINAL: Darkspire

This does seem to be an issue, as much as I really do like the fact that mines are now retro fitted it really is a nightmare late game when the last designs are up dated, I play on a 400 15x15 and have to really plan the last updates if not then I get the same problem, the freighters were reduced in 05 and the steel usage was reduced in 07 but I do not think it was enough to combat the problem in longer games, by late game I have well over 400 mines and it really screws the game up if I update the designs, it is so frustrating looking at sources over 100 and stock well in the five figure area and seeing an unfilled amount of 200+ and then seeing 20-30 in transit. It really needs the AI to break the upgrading and retrofitting into smaller chunks, EG, you have 100 mines, so the AI selects 10, upgrades 10 then selects the next ten etc, at present it seems to want to upgrade everything at once and the freighters can not keep up.

Darkspire

As a general rule, I stop updating the mining stations by mid game. Just not worth it in the end, plus by mid game I have a strong enough navy that they don't have to defend themselves with no hope of back-up.
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turtlefang
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RE: Mining???!!!!

Post by turtlefang »

I would support this change although it goes directly to more micro managing.

As for upgrades, I generally have moved to missiles for my bases so that upgrade automatically except for the change to heavy assault missiles. And the switch over to better shields. That means that I don't have to upgrade bases but twice (and I usually wait and just do it once). This helps avoid the shortfall issues.

But it is frustrating to say the least. Thousands or tens of thousands of units of resources and you can't get them to where you want them to go.
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RE: Mining???!!!!

Post by grumpy181155 »

I love what the developers have done with the series, with each expansion adding more depth and story. Love that with Shadows they have expanded the tech tree and allowed interaction with the pirates (we had interaction before but usually at the pointy end of a torpedo). But the revamped resources and logistics has taken a 4X game with some resource and logistical elements to a logistical and resource game with some 4X elements and I am not enjoying the end game. In fact I don't think I have actually finished a game since I installed Shadows. I just get so fed up with the shortfalls that I eventually stop playing and start another game.

I will probably delete Shadows and go back to playing Legends and keep checking back to the forums to see if this bug (if it is not a bug then it is a real restriction on how we play the game) has been fixed.

A game like this should be able to be played using many different strategies but with the current resource limitations we all have to play exactly the same way and that way has been predetermined by the developers.
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Erik Rutins
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RE: Mining???!!!!

Post by Erik Rutins »

ORIGINAL: grumpy181155
I must admit I am not having fun anymore. I have mined every planet, gas cloud, asteroid and barren rock in my sphere of influence and I am still stuck with half my star bases not upgrading or building because they have material shortages of one sort or another. Half my fleet decided to refuel at a star base that was upgrading but has stalled because it has a shortage of Aculon and they are stuck there not doing anything. It is frustrating and annoying!

Can you upload a save file for us to look at please? I assume from your description that these are not just short-term in transit shortages?

Regards,

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grumpy181155
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RE: Mining???!!!!

Post by grumpy181155 »

Hi Erik,

unfortunately I have started another game but I might have an old save file. Give me some time because I am work at the moment and in the middle of being busy [;)]

I am sorry but all the autosaves have been over written.

I noticed the problem when I went to war with someone and I started manouvering my fleets and I found the AI had sent two of them to a spaceport ostensibly for refuelling but the base was upgrading and the upgrade had stalled and so I could not move the fleets. At the time I had two or three planets / bases that were experiencing shortages. I continued to play the game for several hours and all this time the base did not upgrade and I could not move the fleets. My shortages where probably compounded because I took over one of the oppositions planets.
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grumpy181155
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RE: Mining???!!!!

Post by grumpy181155 »

Turtlefang, I believe that if the primary reason you are fitting missiles to your bases is to avoid the upgrade pains caused by restricted resources then that is an acknowledgement that there is something wrong with the mechanics.
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elliotg
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RE: Mining???!!!!

Post by elliotg »

ORIGINAL: grumpy181155
Thanks for the feedback guys. Normally I let the AI manage the mining and yes this happens when I expand but this is a game where you are expected and need to expand to win ...right????

Plant I would love to post some images but I don't know how. The FAQ says check the box "Embed picture in Post" but I can't find the box to do that. [&:] Some details are though 91 colonies in 71 systems; approximately 1300 freighters; 40 ea mining and gas mining ships; 36 mining and 58 gas mining stations plus 164 military ships and 80 space ports. Money is not an issue as I have a sufficient cash flow frequently injecting cash into research.
Judging from the description of your game you simply have too many spaceports.

Spaceports are your ship construction yards, so when you build a spaceport the AI will stock a large supply of strategic resources there for building new ships. Your freighters will transport these requested resources to the spaceport.

But when you have 80 spaceports and only 94 mining stations then your freighters will have dire trouble supplying those resources.

Ideally you should have around one spaceport for every 3-4 colonies. And you should have at least 5 times as many mining stations as spaceports. You should locate spaceports at strategically critical colonies throughout your territory.

So in your case I would reduce your number of spaceports to 20-25. And I would build a few more mining stations for the resources in highest demand - ideally building them near the areas where they are needed the most.

The other single most important thing to do to ensure efficient transportation of resources is to keep your transport routes safe from enemy ships, pirates and space creatures (to/from mining stations, spaceports and colonies).

Hope this helps,
Elliot
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grumpy181155
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RE: Mining???!!!!

Post by grumpy181155 »

Elliotg thanks for the suggestions. I am keeping, or trying to keep, my transport routes clear but I have been building a spaceport at every colony as soon as it is settled. I actually thought they were a benefit to trade and colony growth plus provided defence. Then what do you recommend as an initial build for a newly colonised planet, a defence base?
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