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Mining???!!!! - 7/27/2013 12:20:14 PM   
grumpy181155


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I must admit I am not having fun anymore. I have mined every planet, gas cloud, asteroid and barren rock in my sphere of influence and I am still stuck with half my star bases not upgrading or building because they have material shortages of one sort or another. Half my fleet decided to refuel at a star base that was upgrading but has stalled because it has a shortage of Aculon and they are stuck there not doing anything. It is frustrating and annoying!
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RE: Mining???!!!! - 7/27/2013 1:59:39 PM   
turtlefang

 

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You have over expanded and overloaded the "freighters". They are running around like a chicken with their head cut off trying to fulfill all your construction projects.

And, usually, at that point they aren't carrying anything but the emergency supplies or something similar. Which means they are mostly empty which just aggravates the situation.

Each new base your building seems to cause the AI to recheck freighter routes and rerouting to handle the new request. So it becomes a very difficult death spiral to break. You have to slow down and let the logistics tail catch up.

A few things, if you have the money:

1) Try to get protection agreements with each of the pirate factions. This makes it more likely that a pirate faction will complete a smuggling mission.

2) Then set a smuggling mission to each planet or star port that has a shortage.

3) Slow down new base construction to let your logistics catch up.

4) Check your treaties. You might need to restrict or stop trading with other empires for a while. This will prevent any leakage across the borders and keep your freighters in territory.

5) If possible, keep new ship construction down for a while, including upgrades.

6) Each colony has a certain amount of resources that are required to make it work. These seem to get priority over base building. If you are adding colonies too fast, this overloads the system as the base resources can't be supplied - again, resulting in catch up. (The flip side, expand too slow and the colonies will meet you with guns blazing as someone else has settled on them).

(in reply to grumpy181155)
Post #: 2
RE: Mining???!!!! - 7/27/2013 4:04:33 PM   
Shark7


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You can also design an escort with mining engines and cargo bays and use them to make up shortfalls. State ships (warships) with a mining engine can be chosen singly and when you hover the cursor over a planet, you will get the option 'Mine this Planet' (or something similar). The ship will then mine till full then drop off at the nearest starport.

It is tedious, but also useful if you have shortages.

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Post #: 3
RE: Mining???!!!! - 7/27/2013 8:55:49 PM   
Plant


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It sounds like you tried to build a lot of bases at the same time instead of trying to steadily build up your bases. resulting in a sudden and large demand for resources.

Perhaps you simply have forcibly built too many mining bases relative to your private income to the extent that your private sector can't afford any frieghters'

Screen shots of galaxy map and main econ screen would be helpful.

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 4
RE: Mining???!!!! - 7/27/2013 10:59:55 PM   
grumpy181155


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Thanks for the feedback guys. Normally I let the AI manage the mining and yes this happens when I expand but this is a game where you are expected and need to expand to win ...right????

Plant I would love to post some images but I don't know how. The FAQ says check the box "Embed picture in Post" but I can't find the box to do that. Some details are though 91 colonies in 71 systems; approximately 1300 freighters; 40 ea mining and gas mining ships; 36 mining and 58 gas mining stations plus 164 military ships and 80 space ports. Money is not an issue as I have a sufficient cash flow frequently injecting cash into research.

Turtlefang in reply to your points;
1. I rarely use protection agreements preferring to use my own fleet for protection because after all my intention is to wipe out the pirates not provide them with a steady income and a cushy job.

2. EVERY planet has a smuggling contract. It seems to be the only way to get enough resources to actually build things.

3. How do I know when I am getting ahead of my logistics tail? Is the first indicator prolonged shortages at new planets or star base build?

4. I actually have a few Free Trade Agreements but these are good....right? And free trade goes both ways doesn't it. If I have shortages of a particular commodity doesn't free trade allow my trading partner to sell me that commodity?

5. I do this already. Keeping a minimal fleet until I think I am going to war. I also tend to delay upgrades until I have several critical that I want to implement.

6. I understand that but I am supposed to be expanding. How do I know I am expanding at the optimal rate?

(in reply to Plant)
Post #: 5
RE: Mining???!!!! - 7/28/2013 2:33:54 AM   
turtlefang

 

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1. I understand the issue about protection agreements but if you have a protection agreement, your smuggling operations have a higher chance of success. So you have to decide - hold off on killing pirates or use pirates to help supply your shortages?

2. If you getting ahead, things start getting build, and new planets are the only ones that will be suffering shortages. Virtually all new planets and space ports will experience shortages as soon as they are built. The question is - are you experiences widespread shortages? Its a balancing act and you have to judge it.

3. Free trade agreements sent resources to other empires and you get money in return. They send resources to your private economy and get money in return. But the resources typically don't go toward building. It is usually a big net loss as your empire is bigger than theirs.

If you need money or improved relations, trade agreements are good. They reduce tension in the galaxy and generate income. But you need resources, not money. Again, you have to decide what is more important. The balancing act.

4. As far as expansion, it is a trade off and you just have to learn how to judge fast expansion versus too much. There is no right answer here. If your against a fast expanding race, you don't have much choice. If your not, you can stage your expansion. But, for example, if you up grade your mining bases, and you have a lot of them, it will require a lot of resources to upgrade. Same with space ports. And same with the civilian fleet.

And the larger your economy becomes, the "slower" it expands. And the slower it expands, the fewer new freighters that get built. Bigger empires actually have fewer freighters "per capital" to support it do to the expansion rate. So shortages may increase especially if you have created a backlog.

Time will cure it - if you control expansion and handle things. The question I would have is, do you need any more mining bases except for one new fuel mining base per new colony in the new colony system? (I believe each colony should have a fuel source in the colony).

If you stop building new mining stations, you will decrease the amount of new resources you need.

(in reply to grumpy181155)
Post #: 6
RE: Mining???!!!! - 7/28/2013 4:34:15 AM   
grumpy181155


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Thanks turtlefang. I have a reasonable handle on the early game but I am having trouble in the latter stages. I will try and slow down my expansion a bit which going from your advice should help a lot. I remember that I started having real problems after I researched a new colonisation tech (can't rember which) and I had a dozen new planets to colonise within my systems. I appreciate the help.

(in reply to turtlefang)
Post #: 7
RE: Mining???!!!! - 7/28/2013 4:52:36 AM   
Darkspire


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This does seem to be an issue, as much as I really do like the fact that mines are now retro fitted it really is a nightmare late game when the last designs are up dated, I play on a 400 15x15 and have to really plan the last updates if not then I get the same problem, the freighters were reduced in 05 and the steel usage was reduced in 07 but I do not think it was enough to combat the problem in longer games, by late game I have well over 400 mines and it really screws the game up if I update the designs, it is so frustrating looking at sources over 100 and stock well in the five figure area and seeing an unfilled amount of 200+ and then seeing 20-30 in transit. It really needs the AI to break the upgrading and retrofitting into smaller chunks, EG, you have 100 mines, so the AI selects 10, upgrades 10 then selects the next ten etc, at present it seems to want to upgrade everything at once and the freighters can not keep up.

Darkspire

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RE: Mining???!!!! - 7/28/2013 11:56:47 AM   
grumpy181155


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I have been playing on a 10 x 10 and I have over 90 mines. I like setting my victory conditions fairly high because to me galaxy domination means DOMINATION!!! Not just a bit more than 50% I agree that it would be good if the AI would introduce upgrades, especially on auxilliary items like mines, slowly.

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Post #: 9
RE: Mining???!!!! - 7/28/2013 4:22:23 PM   
skigrinder

 

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Would it be possible to add a simple 'transfer' dialog to move resources between bases, planets and ships?
The ability to manually satisfy shortages with a resupply ship (i.e. a very large, manual freighter) would eliminate a lot of gnashing of teeth.

(in reply to grumpy181155)
Post #: 10
RE: Mining???!!!! - 7/28/2013 4:54:31 PM   
Jeeves


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PLUS PLUS PLUS!!! So long as I get to specify how much of each cargo type is loaded at a source, and how much is transferred ship to base at the destination. Everybody comment plus or minus, maybe we can get this added...

Lonnie Courtney Clay


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RE: Mining???!!!! - 7/28/2013 6:12:08 PM   
jimhsu

 

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Look at the Resource extraction rates in 1.7.0.7 thread (sorry can't post links for some reason) and my posts to see everything you could possibly want to know about mining. To summarize: more mining engines does not help, "stacking" starbases (which is pseudo-exploity) does work, and colonies suck at getting resources. All of these things should be fixed.

(in reply to Jeeves)
Post #: 12
RE: Mining???!!!! - 7/28/2013 6:43:43 PM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkspire

This does seem to be an issue, as much as I really do like the fact that mines are now retro fitted it really is a nightmare late game when the last designs are up dated, I play on a 400 15x15 and have to really plan the last updates if not then I get the same problem, the freighters were reduced in 05 and the steel usage was reduced in 07 but I do not think it was enough to combat the problem in longer games, by late game I have well over 400 mines and it really screws the game up if I update the designs, it is so frustrating looking at sources over 100 and stock well in the five figure area and seeing an unfilled amount of 200+ and then seeing 20-30 in transit. It really needs the AI to break the upgrading and retrofitting into smaller chunks, EG, you have 100 mines, so the AI selects 10, upgrades 10 then selects the next ten etc, at present it seems to want to upgrade everything at once and the freighters can not keep up.

Darkspire


As a general rule, I stop updating the mining stations by mid game. Just not worth it in the end, plus by mid game I have a strong enough navy that they don't have to defend themselves with no hope of back-up.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

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Post #: 13
RE: Mining???!!!! - 7/28/2013 8:41:31 PM   
turtlefang

 

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I would support this change although it goes directly to more micro managing.

As for upgrades, I generally have moved to missiles for my bases so that upgrade automatically except for the change to heavy assault missiles. And the switch over to better shields. That means that I don't have to upgrade bases but twice (and I usually wait and just do it once). This helps avoid the shortfall issues.

But it is frustrating to say the least. Thousands or tens of thousands of units of resources and you can't get them to where you want them to go.

(in reply to Jeeves)
Post #: 14
RE: Mining???!!!! - 7/28/2013 10:22:43 PM   
grumpy181155


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I love what the developers have done with the series, with each expansion adding more depth and story. Love that with Shadows they have expanded the tech tree and allowed interaction with the pirates (we had interaction before but usually at the pointy end of a torpedo). But the revamped resources and logistics has taken a 4X game with some resource and logistical elements to a logistical and resource game with some 4X elements and I am not enjoying the end game. In fact I don't think I have actually finished a game since I installed Shadows. I just get so fed up with the shortfalls that I eventually stop playing and start another game.

I will probably delete Shadows and go back to playing Legends and keep checking back to the forums to see if this bug (if it is not a bug then it is a real restriction on how we play the game) has been fixed.

A game like this should be able to be played using many different strategies but with the current resource limitations we all have to play exactly the same way and that way has been predetermined by the developers.

< Message edited by grumpy181155 -- 7/29/2013 3:30:18 AM >


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RE: Mining???!!!! - 7/28/2013 11:51:48 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: grumpy181155
I must admit I am not having fun anymore. I have mined every planet, gas cloud, asteroid and barren rock in my sphere of influence and I am still stuck with half my star bases not upgrading or building because they have material shortages of one sort or another. Half my fleet decided to refuel at a star base that was upgrading but has stalled because it has a shortage of Aculon and they are stuck there not doing anything. It is frustrating and annoying!


Can you upload a save file for us to look at please? I assume from your description that these are not just short-term in transit shortages?

Regards,

- Erik


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RE: Mining???!!!! - 7/29/2013 12:38:24 AM   
grumpy181155


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Hi Erik,

unfortunately I have started another game but I might have an old save file. Give me some time because I am work at the moment and in the middle of being busy

I am sorry but all the autosaves have been over written.

I noticed the problem when I went to war with someone and I started manouvering my fleets and I found the AI had sent two of them to a spaceport ostensibly for refuelling but the base was upgrading and the upgrade had stalled and so I could not move the fleets. At the time I had two or three planets / bases that were experiencing shortages. I continued to play the game for several hours and all this time the base did not upgrade and I could not move the fleets. My shortages where probably compounded because I took over one of the oppositions planets.

< Message edited by grumpy181155 -- 7/29/2013 1:36:47 AM >


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Its cold out there.....damn cold

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Post #: 17
RE: Mining???!!!! - 7/29/2013 1:49:37 AM   
grumpy181155


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Turtlefang, I believe that if the primary reason you are fitting missiles to your bases is to avoid the upgrade pains caused by restricted resources then that is an acknowledgement that there is something wrong with the mechanics.

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Post #: 18
RE: Mining???!!!! - 7/31/2013 4:16:16 AM   
elliotg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: grumpy181155
Thanks for the feedback guys. Normally I let the AI manage the mining and yes this happens when I expand but this is a game where you are expected and need to expand to win ...right????

Plant I would love to post some images but I don't know how. The FAQ says check the box "Embed picture in Post" but I can't find the box to do that. Some details are though 91 colonies in 71 systems; approximately 1300 freighters; 40 ea mining and gas mining ships; 36 mining and 58 gas mining stations plus 164 military ships and 80 space ports. Money is not an issue as I have a sufficient cash flow frequently injecting cash into research.

Judging from the description of your game you simply have too many spaceports.

Spaceports are your ship construction yards, so when you build a spaceport the AI will stock a large supply of strategic resources there for building new ships. Your freighters will transport these requested resources to the spaceport.

But when you have 80 spaceports and only 94 mining stations then your freighters will have dire trouble supplying those resources.

Ideally you should have around one spaceport for every 3-4 colonies. And you should have at least 5 times as many mining stations as spaceports. You should locate spaceports at strategically critical colonies throughout your territory.

So in your case I would reduce your number of spaceports to 20-25. And I would build a few more mining stations for the resources in highest demand - ideally building them near the areas where they are needed the most.

The other single most important thing to do to ensure efficient transportation of resources is to keep your transport routes safe from enemy ships, pirates and space creatures (to/from mining stations, spaceports and colonies).

Hope this helps,
Elliot

(in reply to grumpy181155)
Post #: 19
RE: Mining???!!!! - 7/31/2013 5:13:08 AM   
grumpy181155


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Elliotg thanks for the suggestions. I am keeping, or trying to keep, my transport routes clear but I have been building a spaceport at every colony as soon as it is settled. I actually thought they were a benefit to trade and colony growth plus provided defence. Then what do you recommend as an initial build for a newly colonised planet, a defence base?

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Post #: 20
RE: Mining???!!!! - 7/31/2013 5:56:01 AM   
Starke

 

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Personally, the majority of my planets don't have any orbital facilities. If one is getting harassed, I'll assign a handful of ships to defend the system. That'll stop the pirates from destroying anything else in the system too, provided your mining stations have decent shielding. Remember that Spaceports are only needed for construction, retrofitting, international trade... and that's about it. Not every planet needs those capabilities. I prefer defensive fleets that are cheaper and more flexible as the game progresses.

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RE: Mining???!!!! - 7/31/2013 6:33:37 AM   
grumpy181155


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Thanks Starke. I am not saying that that approach is wrong because it obviously isn't but it does seem to go against every instinct I have and all my experience with space 4X games :) What sort of garrison forces do you usually have?

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Post #: 22
RE: Mining???!!!! - 7/31/2013 6:42:46 AM   
Icemania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: grumpy181155
A game like this should be able to be played using many different strategies but with the current resource limitations we all have to play exactly the same way and that way has been predetermined by the developers.


Stay tuned below ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: elliotg
Judging from the description of your game you simply have too many spaceports.

Spaceports are your ship construction yards, so when you build a spaceport the AI will stock a large supply of strategic resources there for building new ships. Your freighters will transport these requested resources to the spaceport.

But when you have 80 spaceports and only 94 mining stations then your freighters will have dire trouble supplying those resources.

Ideally you should have around one spaceport for every 3-4 colonies. And you should have at least 5 times as many mining stations as spaceports. You should locate spaceports at strategically critical colonies throughout your territory.

So in your case I would reduce your number of spaceports to 20-25. And I would build a few more mining stations for the resources in highest demand - ideally building them near the areas where they are needed the most.

The other single most important thing to do to ensure efficient transportation of resources is to keep your transport routes safe from enemy ships, pirates and space creatures (to/from mining stations, spaceports and colonies).

Hope this helps,
Elliot

Elliot, you've allowed a great amount of flexibility in the game, I'm interested in your views on how a very different approach would work with your design intent.

Indeed I choose to have a custom design spaceport at every colony.

I have a small spaceport design for recently colonised planets It's quite a bit smaller again than the default (e.g. only 2 yards), so it can get up quickly, but it includes medical/recreation centres to benefit the colony below.

Almost all colonies have a medium space port which is designed as a defensive base and provides medical/recreation centre benefits to the colony below. Construction yards (etc) are also quite limited in these designs (more like the small spaceport default) but it allows some private ships to be built where needed, retiring recovered ships and the odd retrofit of defensive ships around hotspots. I also keep the cargo bays relatively low to avoid too many strategic resources being stockpiled where they aren't needed. These ports will also include Long Range Scanners.

On my homeworld (and subsequently any other homeworlds conquered) I build a Large Space Port. It is these few ports (particularly the homeworld) that are used to build my fleets as well as providing all the benefits of the Medium Space Port. It has at least twice as many construction yards and cargo bays (etc) as the default.

My experience (assuming well selected mining bases of course) is that I also don't have supply difficulties with this approach.

Indeed there do appear to be some advantages:

1. Every colony can benefit from medical/recreation centres (which won't be possible with only one spaceport for every 3-4 colonies).
2. Every colony has a long range scanner (which won't be possible with only one spaceport for every 3-4 colonies).
3. With a couple of "mega-ports" I have strategic resource stockpiles focused on a couple of locations only. I can build large fleets starting all positioned together (rather than dispersed over various spaceports and then having to form up). The construction speed benefit of Bakuras Highspeed Yards is also further enhanced. Homeworlds will tend to be the best supplied early to mid game of course.



< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/31/2013 6:48:38 AM >

(in reply to elliotg)
Post #: 23
RE: Mining???!!!! - 7/31/2013 8:31:58 AM   
flight2q

 

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I've been including medical and recreation as part of the defensive platform design. I assumed that those facilities are actually providing their benfits.

< Message edited by flight2q -- 7/31/2013 8:32:41 AM >

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Post #: 24
RE: Mining???!!!! - 7/31/2013 2:22:57 PM   
Plant


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I leave my bases on autodesign as a gameplay decision, but I find the ideas behind some of the custom designs very interesting.

I've noticed an interesting side effect to the stockpiling effect of starports. If you take over a rival colony and the staport is consequently destroyed, a very large number of freighters come to pick up the resources from that colony to deposit it into your own starports. Once, I took over a homeworld, and was very suprised to see a long line of hundreds of freighters transfering the accumulated resources of that homeworld to a large spaceport.

I wonder what how the resource distibution script goes for planets without and with different starport sizes.

Btw Icemania, I am not too sure, but I think cargobays don't serve any useful purpose in starports as they share the unlimited resource capacity of the colony that they are built on.

< Message edited by Plant -- 7/31/2013 2:25:12 PM >

(in reply to flight2q)
Post #: 25
RE: Mining???!!!! - 7/31/2013 4:21:50 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 6842
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
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quote:

ORIGINAL: elliotg

quote:

ORIGINAL: grumpy181155
Thanks for the feedback guys. Normally I let the AI manage the mining and yes this happens when I expand but this is a game where you are expected and need to expand to win ...right????

Plant I would love to post some images but I don't know how. The FAQ says check the box "Embed picture in Post" but I can't find the box to do that. Some details are though 91 colonies in 71 systems; approximately 1300 freighters; 40 ea mining and gas mining ships; 36 mining and 58 gas mining stations plus 164 military ships and 80 space ports. Money is not an issue as I have a sufficient cash flow frequently injecting cash into research.

Judging from the description of your game you simply have too many spaceports.

Spaceports are your ship construction yards, so when you build a spaceport the AI will stock a large supply of strategic resources there for building new ships. Your freighters will transport these requested resources to the spaceport.

But when you have 80 spaceports and only 94 mining stations then your freighters will have dire trouble supplying those resources.

Ideally you should have around one spaceport for every 3-4 colonies. And you should have at least 5 times as many mining stations as spaceports. You should locate spaceports at strategically critical colonies throughout your territory.

So in your case I would reduce your number of spaceports to 20-25. And I would build a few more mining stations for the resources in highest demand - ideally building them near the areas where they are needed the most.

The other single most important thing to do to ensure efficient transportation of resources is to keep your transport routes safe from enemy ships, pirates and space creatures (to/from mining stations, spaceports and colonies).

Hope this helps,
Elliot



Elliot, judging from what you posted here, it seems that there is a very good argument for designing star bases to gain the recreation and medical bonuses at colonies, and not have as many star ports. A cheap star base with no construction yard, some weapons, and the bonus components seems to be the more ideal way to go. Am I on the right track with this thinking?

_____________________________

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Post #: 26
RE: Mining???!!!! - 8/3/2013 11:29:49 AM   
Icemania


Posts: 627
Joined: 6/5/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

quote:

ORIGINAL: elliotg
Judging from the description of your game you simply have too many spaceports.

Spaceports are your ship construction yards, so when you build a spaceport the AI will stock a large supply of strategic resources there for building new ships. Your freighters will transport these requested resources to the spaceport.

But when you have 80 spaceports and only 94 mining stations then your freighters will have dire trouble supplying those resources.

Ideally you should have around one spaceport for every 3-4 colonies. And you should have at least 5 times as many mining stations as spaceports. You should locate spaceports at strategically critical colonies throughout your territory.

So in your case I would reduce your number of spaceports to 20-25. And I would build a few more mining stations for the resources in highest demand - ideally building them near the areas where they are needed the most.

The other single most important thing to do to ensure efficient transportation of resources is to keep your transport routes safe from enemy ships, pirates and space creatures (to/from mining stations, spaceports and colonies).

Hope this helps,
Elliot


Elliot, judging from what you posted here, it seems that there is a very good argument for designing star bases to gain the recreation and medical bonuses at colonies, and not have as many star ports. A cheap star base with no construction yard, some weapons, and the bonus components seems to be the more ideal way to go. Am I on the right track with this thinking?


In reading recent posts the options for Colonies that are not amongst the most critical strategically are:

My status quo ... a Custom Medium Spaceport (i.e. with a relatively small number of cargo bays, construction yards and plants).

Option 1: Custom Medium Spaceport as above but without the cargo bays. The construction yards and plants are retained in this option. For my custom designs the cost reduction from the status quo is 4%.

Option 2: Custom Starbase. The status quo without the construction yards and plants. Unlike Spaceports the Starbase design requires cargo bays to be retained. Cost reduction from status quo of 11%.

Option 3: Custom Defensive Base without the construction yards and plants. Unlike Starbases the cargo bays can be removed. Cost reduction from status quo of 15%.

Option 4: No Starport or Base.

The Ports and Bases can all provide medical and recreation benefits to the colony. Without a port or base at colonies these benefits are lost, which can be significant e.g. on newly conquered colonies minimising revolts or optimising tax rates elsewhere. Option 4 appears inferior to the others in this respect.

Refuelling time for a large fleet was the same for all options (based on test with the same planet at the same time in-game). Also upgrade time (doubling weapons) was the same for each option. As Plant suggested all options have direct access to the planetary resources as per the Ships and Bases screen so Cargo bays appear to add no value. Option 1 appears superior to my status quo so thank you Plant.

Starbases and Defensive bases are off centre from the planet which is potentially a benefit for pirate raiders. This is relevant as I consider one large base superior to a bunch of smaller ones (where focus fire is more effective, instead attackers need to get through the combined shields etc).

Some outstanding questions I need to consider further in-game are:

Do my Medium Spaceports (i.e. with a small number of construction yards) benefit the Private economy? Looking at my current game about 20-25% are actively building a Private ship. If I didn't have the Medium Spaceports would they just be built at the Large Spaceports instead?

Private ships will dock directly with the planet when Starbases or Defensive Bases are used but Private ships dock with Spaceports when they are available. Do the commerce centres in Spaceports therefore provide revenue benefits that Starbases and Defensive Bases cannot?

How does each option change what resources are stocked on the planet itself exactly?

Commentary welcome.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 8/3/2013 11:38:35 AM >

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 27
RE: Mining???!!!! - 8/3/2013 4:48:50 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 6842
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From: The Big Nowhere
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Hmm, I wish we had an option for a space dock...that is a place to dock the freighters that has all the planetary benefits of space port without the need for the constructors. More like the anchor for an orbital elevator, where you unload the cargo in space with then moves down the cargo elevator to the surface.

I guess a real question to answer is: if you remove the cargo bays from say a small space port, will it reduce the resource requirements and ease the burden on my freighters?

Cost is not a concern with me, I build far more military ships than I need to be worried about saving a few credits on cargo bays. What annoys me is constantly being low on resources even when I have multiple sources for each resource.

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(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 28
RE: Mining???!!!! - 8/4/2013 4:54:21 AM   
Icemania


Posts: 627
Joined: 6/5/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7
Hmm, I wish we had an option for a space dock...that is a place to dock the freighters that has all the planetary benefits of space port without the need for the constructors. More like the anchor for an orbital elevator, where you unload the cargo in space with then moves down the cargo elevator to the surface.

I guess a real question to answer is: if you remove the cargo bays from say a small space port, will it reduce the resource requirements and ease the burden on my freighters?

Cost is not a concern with me, I build far more military ships than I need to be worried about saving a few credits on cargo bays. What annoys me is constantly being low on resources even when I have multiple sources for each resource.

Yeah I agree with the space dock concept. Maybe the spaceport design restriction to require construction yards and plants could be lifted so they become optional.

In the meantime with cost it's not just the cargo bays it's also the cost of construction yards / plants. The cost difference is not all that significant i.e. for my designs a maximum of 15%. That 15% might provide economic benefits and also bases have the disadvantage of an off-centre position. So for the moment I'm sticking with Medium Spaceports but obviously more testing, or advice from the developer, would be welcome.





(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 29
RE: Mining???!!!! - 8/6/2013 7:34:26 AM   
Icemania


Posts: 627
Joined: 6/5/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7
quote:

ORIGINAL: elliotg

Judging from the description of your game you simply have too many spaceports.

Spaceports are your ship construction yards, so when you build a spaceport the AI will stock a large supply of strategic resources there for building new ships. Your freighters will transport these requested resources to the spaceport.

But when you have 80 spaceports and only 94 mining stations then your freighters will have dire trouble supplying those resources.

Ideally you should have around one spaceport for every 3-4 colonies. And you should have at least 5 times as many mining stations as spaceports. You should locate spaceports at strategically critical colonies throughout your territory.

So in your case I would reduce your number of spaceports to 20-25. And I would build a few more mining stations for the resources in highest demand - ideally building them near the areas where they are needed the most.

The other single most important thing to do to ensure efficient transportation of resources is to keep your transport routes safe from enemy ships, pirates and space creatures (to/from mining stations, spaceports and colonies).

Hope this helps,
Elliot

Elliot, judging from what you posted here, it seems that there is a very good argument for designing star bases to gain the recreation and medical bonuses at colonies, and not have as many star ports. A cheap star base with no construction yard, some weapons, and the bonus components seems to be the more ideal way to go. Am I on the right track with this thinking?

I've put some further thought into these options looking at a current game which I plan to test more fully.

Consider late game 2140 (200+ colonies about 50 at maximum population)

The maintenance cost of each Spaceport or Base is about $2k. Weaponry and Shields have been reduced by quite a lot from mid-game as the Pirates are quiet.

The happiness benefits at the colonies are significant, usually around +30, which means I'm able to raise taxes by at least 20% of those colonies.

I would only need a colony revenue of $10k to justify the maintenance cost of the Port when considering this factor alone. Like many I tax only at colonies that have reached maximum population.

Now looking at those colonies at maximum population, all of them provide revenue greater than $10k, except for one planet at 57% quality. Many are far far greater than $10k of course. There are some colonies that are still growing that won't provide this revenue later in the game, but these are exceptions e.g. low quality planets with special ruins e.g. Fortress of Torak.

Consider a new colony

I've picked a new colony at random, quality 67%, all population policy set to assimilate, and tested the options while monitoring resources and freighter movements.

As Elliott has said, the choice to build a Spaceport will result in many more strategic resources being stockpiled at the colony, causing the problems well described in this thread. A Spaceport also deflects freighters from other activities of higher importance e.g. it looked like more luxuries got to the colony earlier and it also seemed like more of the resource outputs of the colony were being transported for sale.

Now a Spaceport or Base still provides happiness benefits that improve the population growth rate. It looks like this is a couple of percent only although it compounds. That said, if you choose Assimilation this will be the dominant factor in growth.

Back to the hard bit, Spaceport Income. Without a Spaceport, looks like freighters will ship resources provided at the colony to a world with a Spaceport, and those resources are then sold. However, with a Spaceport, freighters can go direct to each planet to buy and sell resources i.e. it should mean faster space post income. However, so long as the nearest Spaceports is close, the difference should be minimal.

Conclusion

Early on, Bases provide defence and some colony development support, minimising resource shortages elsewhere and inefficient use of freighters, which spaceports can cause. As the colony development support is small (particularly if you don't mind Assimilating) it also appears quite valid to defend colonies with ships only. Personally though I would use a mix Bases of Ships. Bases will still help on newly conquered planets to prevent revolts.

Later on, there is value in having either a Base at all well developed reasonable quality colonies that are being taxed, since the happiness benefits allow tax rates to be increased, which can be quite lucrative.

With Spaceports I'll now follow Elliott's advice as the developer i.e. Spaceports only at every 3-4 colonies ... but also ensuring travel times for internal empire freight stays small. Where there is a Spaceport; however, there is no real need for a Base.

Again commentary is welcome.





< Message edited by Icemania -- 8/7/2013 4:44:48 AM >

(in reply to Shark7)
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