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What Happens to the Dutch

 
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What Happens to the Dutch - 7/20/2013 6:12:14 PM   
m_shane_perkins


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This is my first time playing the game. I'm played against Japanese AI. I know I will lose the DEI, but if I save the Navy and AF what happens to them? If I move them to Oz or India and assign them to Brit or Aussie commands will they remain in the game? If yes, will they sustain replacements?
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RE: What Happens to the Dutch - 7/20/2013 6:15:38 PM   
Terminus


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You can, and should, try to save the Dutch fleet. The air force aren't worth it; you'll have American aircraft coming out the wazoo soon enough.

But to answer your questions, the Dutch nationality doesn't disappear because the DEI falls, so any rescued squadrons don't disappear either.

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RE: What Happens to the Dutch - 7/20/2013 6:17:55 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: m_shane_perkins

This is my first time playing the game. I'm played against Japanese AI. I know I will lose the DEI, but if I save the Navy and AF what happens to them? If I move them to Oz or India and assign them to Brit or Aussie commands will they remain in the game? If yes, will they sustain replacements?

They stay in the game, but check the air groups upgrade paths and the pool display (on the Intel screen there is a button for it) to see what production the various planes have. Be sure to click on each plane type in the pool display to see which month it ends production.

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RE: What Happens to the Dutch - 7/20/2013 6:20:12 PM   
Terminus


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The point being that Dutch squadrons only use "Dutch" aircraft, even if it's P-40s and B-25s. Your pool will be catastrophically small.

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RE: What Happens to the Dutch - 7/20/2013 9:00:40 PM   
Victory is mine

 

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If you are playing the AI it is entirely possible that you can stop the Japanese in the DEI.

Agree, Dutch air unit aren't really worth saving. I'm not real big on saving their combat ships either. I tend to use them as raiders trying to thwart landing attmepts. The merchant fleet of course is very useful.

The land units are useful if you can save whole units. Fragments take too long to rebuild to be worth anything.

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RE: What Happens to the Dutch - 7/20/2013 10:24:51 PM   
m_shane_perkins


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Many thanks to all the replies. Very useful. I will check the upgrade paths for the AF. I want to keep the Navy just for future raiding and Convoy Escorts. The cargo and tanker will be helpful I think. I made a Strategic decision early on that I was going to delay only in the DEI. I'm too far down that road now to change, unless the AI stops itself. I was only able to remove one Land unit (a BF) and it's too risky to go back now. Again thanks to all. This a great forum of players.

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RE: What Happens to the Dutch - 7/20/2013 11:06:45 PM   
guytipton41


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Hi M. Shane,

I like the Catalina units. The rest are pretty much a waste of PP and supply after the DEI falls (i.e. don't buy them back.). I do have a five aircraft squadron of B339 still in Calcutta but that's just to pump up the number of fighters for Japanese recon.

Cheers,
Guy

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RE: What Happens to the Dutch - 7/20/2013 11:24:31 PM   
Terminus


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The Dutch submarines should not be forgotten. They, the USN S-boats and the one or two British subs you get are the only ones with mostly functional torpedoes.

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RE: What Happens to the Dutch - 7/21/2013 12:14:31 AM   
wdolson

 

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The RAF and RAAF get a few units that use Dutch pilots. I believe they can use Dutch PBYs and B-25s too, but I'm not 100% sure about that. In any case saving experienced Dutch pilots can put these units into action sooner and keep them stocked with pilots when combat losses happen.

Dutch fleet units are a good asset to save. The surface units are kind of short legged, but they make good base defense units freeing up longer range ships for longer voyages.

Bill

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RE: What Happens to the Dutch - 7/21/2013 12:25:56 AM   
dr.hal


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There are a number of good discussions on the Dutch, such as in http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3365337&mpage=1&key=� but it by no means clear what players will do with them as it depends upon many factors. I try to use them as they are very much needed in the first six months of the war. Hal

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RE: What Happens to the Dutch - 7/23/2013 2:52:54 PM   
String


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Dutch patrol planes can still be used as patrols, especially if you limit their range to reduce ops losses, their bomber squadrons can still do ASW or backwater bombing (bombing cut off japanese units with no air cover/flak) and their fighters can still provide backwater CAP. You just have to realize that replacements are nonexistant so they have to conduct low ops loss missions in an enviorment where there is no japanese air threat.

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RE: What Happens to the Dutch - 7/23/2013 8:47:37 PM   
dr.hal


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I agree String, but there is a lot more the Dutch can do. They certainly have a role to play in the first six months to a year of the war, and whoa to the Japanese player that writes them off and for shame to the allied player that does the same thing!

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RE: What Happens to the Dutch - 7/24/2013 4:52:26 AM   
crsutton


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You get one RAAF fighter unit that has Dutch pilots. Unfortunately once it uses up the surviving Dutch P40E, it is limited to the woeful Boomerang until the Australian P51 comes on line in 7/45.

You get one medium bomber unit. (no. 18 squadron) that is limited to the Australian Mitchell bombers of which you only get 3 per month.If you just use this one squadron for your Mitchells you can keep it in aircraft and it is useful throughout the war.

You get one patrol squadron (no 321 squadron) that can use the Dutch Catalina, the British Catalina I or the British patrol Liberator. A useful unit.

Pretty hard to run out of Dutch pilots-limited as they are.

Some Dutch aviation and base forces are well worth saving. Most all Dutch ships are worth saving but I would not worry too much about the air force or infantry. There are no replacements for either so they don't help much.

< Message edited by crsutton -- 7/24/2013 4:54:52 AM >


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RE: What Happens to the Dutch - 7/28/2013 12:30:50 AM   
John Lansford

 

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My Dutch pilots did well in my campaign game, torpedoing several Japanese transports and one level bomber managed to hit a BB as well. The Dutch submariners are still in action in late 43' operating out of Darwin and Ceylon. That chokepoint south of the Philippines is a graveyard of Japanese tankers coming out of Balikpapan now thanks to them...

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RE: What Happens to the Dutch - 8/9/2013 6:28:16 PM   
bradfordkay

 

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The Dutch patrol squadrons (Do24K, PBY) are permanently restricted to Dutch bases so you can't send them to Australia but you can find an obscure Dutch port in which to base them with AVDs. I still have four of them operating (3 planes each) in July, 1944. IMO, any search aircraft are useful.

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RE: What Happens to the Dutch - 8/9/2013 7:20:55 PM   
rms1pa

 

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quote:

The Dutch patrol squadrons (Do24K, PBY) are permanently restricted to Dutch bases so you can't send them to Australia


you can convert some of the northern AUS ports to ABDA command. then send dutch aircraft there.

for my self i fly some dutch base forces to dobo and meruke. with some AVPs they handle the dutch flying boats well. over time they can handle LBA also.

rms/pa

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RE: What Happens to the Dutch - 8/9/2013 7:58:30 PM   
Thayne

 

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I took my Dutch units and retreated them to Babar Island which I hoped to make a stronghold.

I play in a "roleplaying" mode so I had certain restrictions. Units retreated to Babar had to have been salvaged from elsewhere - typically picked up by seaplanes as fragments of defeated units and deposited here - with supplies from Australia, set to rebuild as much as possible.

It is a ragtag stack of units with too much support and not enough combat units. The Japanese have been landing troops on the island and now have them outnumbered. Supplies are dwindling and, with a constant enemy patrol around the island, I can only get supplies in by submarine.

But, it is nearly October, 1942, and they still live.

Again, because I play in a "roleplaying" mode, I cannot choose to simply leave them there without hope of aid. So, I am now mounting a "Malta" style relief expedition, complete with aircraft carriers, transports, and the ferrying in of land-based fighters right before the relief expedition shows up.

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RE: What Happens to the Dutch - 8/10/2013 5:03:14 AM   
rms1pa

 

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quote:

I play in a "roleplaying" mode



Truly one of the best things about the dutch is DRAMA!!!

plucky survivors fighting to the last gasp. YES!

rms/pa


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RE: What Happens to the Dutch - 11/23/2014 3:34:14 PM   
m_shane_perkins


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thayne

I took my Dutch units and retreated them to Babar Island which I hoped to make a stronghold.

I play in a "roleplaying" mode so I had certain restrictions. Units retreated to Babar had to have been salvaged from elsewhere - typically picked up by seaplanes as fragments of defeated units and deposited here - with supplies from Australia, set to rebuild as much as possible.

It is a ragtag stack of units with too much support and not enough combat units. The Japanese have been landing troops on the island and now have them outnumbered. Supplies are dwindling and, with a constant enemy patrol around the island, I can only get supplies in by submarine.

But, it is nearly October, 1942, and they still live.

Again, because I play in a "roleplaying" mode, I cannot choose to simply leave them there without hope of aid. So, I am now mounting a "Malta" style relief expedition, complete with aircraft carriers, transports, and the ferrying in of land-based fighters right before the relief expedition shows up.


How did this stand turn out for you? I have my remaining Dutch combat and support troops along the N. Australian coast. They aren't much but their base ops and AA have helped me keep the LOC open from Perth to Darwin.

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RE: What Happens to the Dutch - 11/24/2014 12:04:14 PM   
wegman58

 

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I'm playing my first campaign, Dec 8 Quiet China, keeping up with the latest patches (but no Babes, mods).

After they ran out of active aircraft, I withdrew my Dutch squadrons. AND they popped up at Aden - no Political Points needed (no airplanes either). I have SOME aircraft, and the ability to convert some to B-25/PBY/P-40.

Not sure what I'm going to do with them - a lot of backwater patrolling I think.

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RE: What Happens to the Dutch - 11/24/2014 9:23:16 PM   
leehunt27@bloomberg.net


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The Dutch are best used almost recklessly to poke and prod your Japanese opponent and upset his best laid plans :) Don't just roll over and wait for him to take Java!

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RE: What Happens to the Dutch - 11/24/2014 10:00:57 PM   
Thayne

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: m_shane_perkins


quote:

ORIGINAL: Thayne

I took my Dutch units and retreated them to Babar Island which I hoped to make a stronghold.

I play in a "roleplaying" mode so I had certain restrictions. Units retreated to Babar had to have been salvaged from elsewhere - typically picked up by seaplanes as fragments of defeated units and deposited here - with supplies from Australia, set to rebuild as much as possible.

It is a ragtag stack of units with too much support and not enough combat units. The Japanese have been landing troops on the island and now have them outnumbered. Supplies are dwindling and, with a constant enemy patrol around the island, I can only get supplies in by submarine.

But, it is nearly October, 1942, and they still live.

Again, because I play in a "roleplaying" mode, I cannot choose to simply leave them there without hope of aid. So, I am now mounting a "Malta" style relief expedition, complete with aircraft carriers, transports, and the ferrying in of land-based fighters right before the relief expedition shows up.


How did this stand turn out for you? I have my remaining Dutch combat and support troops along the N. Australian coast. They aren't much but their base ops and AA have helped me keep the LOC open from Perth to Darwin.



After ignoring this region of the war for 10 months, it seems the attempt to relieve the island caught Japan by surprise.

As the allied ships got into position, Japan had a number of lightly-escorted ships off the coast supplying their own (50,000) troops. The Australian and Dutch shore-based guns would fire at the Japanese supply convoys from time to time, with little effect.

The allied supply situation had deteriorated significantly by this time. Dutch and Australian soldiers had just gone to half rations, and there was no way the island could host an air squadron.

The battleships arrived first. They encountered two small transport task forces in the dark, then bombarded the Japanese on the island - and retreated back to Darwin.

At dawn, the torpedo bombers came in off of the carriers and inflicted some more damage on the ships. Japan's capacity to transport cargo in this region has been severely diminished.

The fighters that were supposed to go to Babar stayed in Darwin and flew long range CAP over the carriers.

Japanese attacks managed to land hits on the HMS Repulse (which will be out of the war for six months), one carrier (under repair for 1 more month), one destroyer (that underwent emergency repairs of all non-major damage at Darwin and is now limping to a drydock at Melbourne), and one transport.

Because of the supply situation (and the fear of a counter-attack), the battleships and carriers could not stay long - they retreated back to Perth.

However, with the additional supplies, two Australian squadrons flew to Babar to guard the island. Their numbers are augmented by a squadron of Beaufighters based in Darwin.

Japanese Zeros inflicted some serious harm on them - but took some casualties in return (at a ratio of 1 Japanese for every 2 Australians).

The Dutch navy has been guarding two APs (out of the original four) delivering supplies out of Darwin. Nine APDs also contribute to supplying the island.

Just three days ago, a task force consisting of five large AKLs reached Babar. In two days, they will be completely unloaded.

There are now 16,000 AE-"tons" of supplies on the island. The troops are eating well, and there is enough ammunition to shell the Japanese that sit outside the Allied stronghold.

It could have been much worse - but Japan seems to be focusing its efforts on Burma and the Solomons. Admittedly, the allies have not planned any major offensives on this front. The intent was just to form a stronghold where the Dutch could hold out - and to provide a road bump for Japanese assaults on northern Australia.

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RE: What Happens to the Dutch - 11/24/2014 11:20:39 PM   
Lowpe

 

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Don't forget the Dutch ability with mines!

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RE: What Happens to the Dutch - 11/26/2014 12:15:53 PM   
traskott

 

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One question: The DB-7 pool of dutch nationality, will be used by some RAAF Sqn of can be expended? I have seen the P-40s and B-25 should be reserved, and I have located the 18th RAAF Sqn, but is there any USAAC or RAAF (or RAF ) Sqn which use the DB-7? Thanks !!!!

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RE: What Happens to the Dutch - 11/26/2014 4:42:08 PM   
Jellicoe


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Small note of caution. If you do decide to evacuate some Dutch land units - I currently have a Dutch redoubt on cocos islands - they will upgrade their ToE later to use British equipment eg 5.5inch artillery etc. given that the commonwealth device pools are notoriously small you don't want some minor Dutch unit half inching some choice equipment you had been waiting to fill out one of your British or Indian divisions with

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RE: What Happens to the Dutch - 11/27/2014 1:39:44 PM   
m_shane_perkins


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wegman58

I'm playing my first campaign, Dec 8 Quiet China, keeping up with the latest patches (but no Babes, mods).

After they ran out of active aircraft, I withdrew my Dutch squadrons. AND they popped up at Aden - no Political Points needed (no airplanes either). I have SOME aircraft, and the ability to convert some to B-25/PBY/P-40.

Not sure what I'm going to do with them - a lot of backwater patrolling I think.


I have about 4 or 5 Dutch Patrol squadrons, 3 fighter, and 2 bomber. All sowed up in Aden. I have them operating out of India for ASW, NAV Search or ATK.

They are small but let me focus the RAF on protecting the eastern border.

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RE: What Happens to the Dutch - 11/27/2014 6:09:32 PM   
crsutton


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Yes, the returning bombers are useful for ASW work and searching in quiet sectors if you have some of the old Martins left in the pool. That way the low Op losses will make them last. Also, don't squander the 60 or so American bombers that the Dutch get as they can be used in these returning squadrons. There are Australian and one or two US units that can use these bombers as well. But once they are gone, then they are gone.

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